Ep. 198 - Thomas Kazen ”Dirt, Shame, Status: Same-Sex Sexuality in the Bible” pt. 2

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[00:01:04] Welcome to the Deconstructionist Podcast.

[00:01:09] I'm your host John Williamson and we're back with part two of my interview with Dr. Thomas Kazen.

[00:01:14] Thomas is a professor and chair of biblical studies at Stockholm School of Theology, University College Stockholm.

[00:01:22] He has authored numerous books and articles in English and Swedish including Moral Infringement and Repair in Antiquity and Impurity and Purification in Early Judaism and the Jesus Tradition.

[00:01:32] Today we bring him back for part two of our talk on his new book, Dirt Shame Status Perspectives on Same-Sex Sexuality in the Bible in the Ancient World.

[00:01:41] And again, we go deep into the handful of references in the Bible to try to understand what it would have meant to the people who would have heard it in ancient times.

[00:01:51] And again, just a warning.

[00:01:53] We definitely cover some topics and some references to what would be absolutely considered sexual assault in modern day times.

[00:02:01] And there is some language that may be offensive to some, but again, very important topic to cover.

[00:02:07] And hopefully this is beneficial to those of you listening.

[00:02:11] So, so without further ado, here's part two with Thomas freaking Kazen.

[00:02:24] Yeah, that brings to mind the ancient practice also of, you know, we've talked about this in the podcast before, invading armies, you know, the victorious army using sex as almost weaponized against the defeated army and quite frankly, you know, rape.

[00:02:44] You know, they would rape their, yeah, talk about that a little bit.

[00:02:50] Well, well, that to degrade someone, to shame someone by penetrating them, whether, whether a male or a female has, has been something that human beings have engaged in for thousands of years, I think.

[00:03:14] And it, it all builds on, on the, this hierarchical understanding.

[00:03:23] For example, you have a Greek vase painting where Greece is symbolized by a one male with an irrigated penis and Persia, which was conquered at that occasion, is, is, is symbolized by a,

[00:03:42] another male who is bending over with his, uh, uh, uh, as protruding, uh, and, uh, on the other side of the vase.

[00:03:56] So, so, so this, the, the, the, the Greek man is just about to rape the Persian.

[00:04:04] Uh, uh, uh, and the text says, I'm, I'm, uh, you Romiton, if Romiton, I bent over.

[00:04:13] So that's, that's kind of commemoration of the battle, uh, at Romiton where, uh, where the Greeks won.

[00:04:25] Yeah, that's, it's, it's, it's not something that I think a lot of people are aware of, uh, historically speaking and, and, and certainly, um, very graphic.

[00:04:35] Um, but again, I think it's important to understand that sometimes some of these ancient references in text are, uh, not, it's not always so clear cut in terms of, um, I think that's clearly not, um, in it, you know, a representation of, uh, a consensual same-sex relationship.

[00:04:53] Um, obviously that is an act of violence against another person.

[00:04:57] Um, you know, and again, uh, within a, uh, a society that has a very clear, you know, uh, hierarchical structure in place and clear definitions in terms of, um, honor and things like that.

[00:05:13] And that's one of the things I wanted you to talk about as well, because I think it's, you point out in the book also that even between, um, honor and shame, honor was something that was more distinct to the male gender versus shame.

[00:05:27] That was more distinct, uh, within the female, uh, gender.

[00:05:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:33] Females were, uh, were supposed to be different, uh, to show difference and, and, and to, to, to, to, to have low profile in the public sphere.

[00:05:45] Uh, before we enter this, can I, can I just add another, add another text, uh, on the, on, on the previous topic?

[00:05:53] Uh, because we, we've, we've got this interesting text from the Middle Assyrian laws from the 11th century BCE.

[00:06:02] Now they are old, right?

[00:06:04] Uh, and, and they, they say that if, if, if a man, uh, spreads secret rumors about his neighbor and says that everyone fucks him, that everyone penetrates him,

[00:06:18] uh, uh, he, he, he, he will be very, very severely punished with, with lashes and, and, and, and a heavy fine.

[00:06:25] But if a man actually fucks his neighbor, if he penetrates his neighbor, uh, and they prove it and, and find him guilty,

[00:06:34] what happens then?

[00:06:35] Then the other males shall penetrate him, shall rape him.

[00:06:39] That's the punishment and castrate him in addition.

[00:06:42] So there you've got, it's not the, it's not the act of, it's not the, the act of, a sexual act between two males that, that is considered the problem here.

[00:06:57] But it is the fact that you have got a male who's penetrating another male, a companion is, is, is, is, is the, is the meaning of, of, of the Kalian word.

[00:07:10] But it's, it's, it's, it's, it's another male at the same level.

[00:07:16] And that is, that is the problem.

[00:07:19] Uh, and, and, and, and, and, and the appropriate punishment then is supposed to be to submit him to this, to the same treatment by the collective.

[00:07:32] Uh, because he is, uh, because he has shamed this person, right?

[00:07:38] Now, of course, if it was, if, if, if it's a matter of a woman, she can also be shamed, of course, but in, in, in, in, not in the same, not in the same way.

[00:07:49] Uh, and,

[00:07:52] shame is a tricky issue because on the one hand, for a male to be shamed is a catastrophe.

[00:07:59] Um, for a woman to, uh, to display shame is an honor.

[00:08:14] Uh, shamelessness is one thing.

[00:08:18] That's, that's, that's bad.

[00:08:20] But to have the proper, uh, type of shame, the proper amount of shame, uh, that is in a sense honorable.

[00:08:30] So a woman's honor is her, her shame.

[00:08:34] And then we realize that shame has a broad shade of meanings because it's, it always has to do with your place in, your proper place in the hierarchical order.

[00:08:49] Um, and of course, in ancient culture, um, there are movements back and forth, how much freedom women, women have.

[00:09:04] There are periods in which, which women gain, you know, more independence and more freedom.

[00:09:10] And there are periods when there are backlashes.

[00:09:13] And, um, very sadly, uh, when the Christian religion becomes established, uh, we find many examples of, of, uh, repression, further repression of, of, of, uh, women's space and agency.

[00:09:38] In many ways, I mean, we, we've, we've got these supposed Pauline or pseudo Pauline, uh, um, texts, which, uh, uh, which tell women that they are not allowed to teach.

[00:09:53] And they are, and, and, and they, they should just, uh, keep quiet and, um, uh, be subordinate to, to their husbands.

[00:10:02] And when we come further into, get further into Christian history, it doesn't get better at all.

[00:10:11] And, of course, there, there are other, uh, examples in ancient history.

[00:10:22] And the most interesting thing, I think, is Sappho, uh, and the group around Sappho at Lesbos.

[00:10:29] And, I mean, we're back around 600 BC.

[00:10:32] It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, uh, it's even before the Israelite exile in Babylon.

[00:10:41] So it's, it's, it's, it's early, right?

[00:10:44] And the poetry that has been found in fragments and partly reconstructed, uh, by Sappho is remarkable.

[00:10:53] Because, because, because of the, um, uh, the lack of hierarchical, uh, you know, kind of lack of hierarchical structure.

[00:11:07] It, it, it's of a completely different character compared with male poetry of the same, of similar kind.

[00:11:23] When, when, when Sappho describes love between women, there's a mutuality in this.

[00:11:32] Uh, and a, uh, a feeling of, of love in this, which is very absent from corresponding male poetry.

[00:11:49] Male, males who wrote poetry, well, they wrote pederastic poetry.

[00:11:55] They wrote about boys whom they adored.

[00:11:59] Uh, and they warned about them getting too old and hairy.

[00:12:06] The, the, the poetry is very coarse.

[00:12:09] And it's very misogynic, misogynistic.

[00:12:13] Um, they, um, they, they, they think that it's better to, to love teenage boys than women.

[00:12:22] Because women have no brains.

[00:12:24] Well, it's a noose, so the, the, the understanding, the, the, um, um, uh, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, the sense, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um.

[00:12:38] Um, um, um, um, that, uh, um, um, um, um, um, um, uh, um, uh, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um.

[00:12:47] so

[00:12:53] so

[00:12:55] so

[00:12:58] pederastic poetry

[00:13:00] is kind of

[00:13:02] built upon a

[00:13:03] a very low

[00:13:05] view of women all the time

[00:13:07] those who

[00:13:09] those who

[00:13:10] penetrate women they are just like animals

[00:13:16] one of these

[00:13:18] poets says Straton

[00:13:19] of Sardis

[00:13:21] but

[00:13:25] we have

[00:13:26] we have

[00:13:27] an advantage

[00:13:30] because we have invented

[00:13:32] anal sex

[00:13:34] so

[00:13:37] but those

[00:13:38] who have sex with women

[00:13:40] are just like

[00:13:42] animals

[00:13:46] it's

[00:13:48] some of those texts are not very nice

[00:13:50] to read and I must admit that

[00:13:51] when I

[00:13:52] I've been

[00:13:53] working on this for some time

[00:13:55] I was quite fed up with some of these

[00:13:57] expressions because they were

[00:14:00] they were so

[00:14:01] disrespectful

[00:14:06] and

[00:14:07] it's still

[00:14:09] I mean I'm

[00:14:10] it still

[00:14:12] surprises me

[00:14:13] how big the difference

[00:14:15] is between

[00:14:16] the poetry of

[00:14:17] Sapfo and

[00:14:18] and the

[00:14:18] pederastic

[00:14:19] poets which

[00:14:20] which you find

[00:14:22] through several centuries

[00:14:26] yeah it's

[00:14:26] it's

[00:14:27] it's

[00:14:28] it's

[00:14:28] remarkable

[00:14:28] what we can learn from

[00:14:30] you know some of the

[00:14:32] societies that

[00:14:33] existed

[00:14:34] along the same time period in which

[00:14:36] a lot of these religious texts were written

[00:14:38] and one of the things you put at the end

[00:14:40] of the book as well that I think is

[00:14:42] is really

[00:14:43] interesting and important

[00:14:45] to kind of discuss

[00:14:46] because I think it helps us understand

[00:14:48] how we should treat these texts

[00:14:50] is that

[00:14:52] the ways in which we

[00:14:54] kind of view

[00:14:55] and

[00:14:55] in the modern lens through which we view

[00:14:58] religious texts versus secular texts

[00:15:00] it's completely different

[00:15:01] now versus

[00:15:02] back then

[00:15:03] and you kind of talk about

[00:15:05] that a little bit

[00:15:06] so explain

[00:15:06] explain what you meant

[00:15:08] or

[00:15:08] what you say in the book about that

[00:15:11] I'm afraid you have to clarify the question

[00:15:13] because I didn't quite

[00:15:15] yeah so you talk

[00:15:16] you talk about in the book

[00:15:17] about how

[00:15:18] we review

[00:15:20] we view

[00:15:20] religious texts today

[00:15:21] you know

[00:15:23] as being sort of

[00:15:26] a higher level

[00:15:28] you know

[00:15:29] versus secular texts

[00:15:30] versus

[00:15:30] you know back in

[00:15:32] in ancient days

[00:15:33] religious texts were

[00:15:34] sort of

[00:15:35] you know religion in general

[00:15:36] is sort of baked into the fabric of society

[00:15:38] there was no real

[00:15:39] distinction between the two

[00:15:41] but yet today

[00:15:42] you know we would

[00:15:43] read something in Paul

[00:15:45] but not necessarily read other

[00:15:47] contemporary manuscripts

[00:15:51] alongside it

[00:15:52] because we

[00:15:52] yeah okay okay

[00:15:53] yeah yeah I get

[00:15:57] yes

[00:15:58] I mean religion is a function of society

[00:16:01] it's a function of culture

[00:16:05] we would often

[00:16:07] want to think of religion as something

[00:16:11] something special

[00:16:12] something timeless

[00:16:13] that kind of floats

[00:16:16] unchanged

[00:16:17] through

[00:16:17] through times and cultures

[00:16:19] through

[00:16:19] through the

[00:16:20] through the centuries

[00:16:21] through

[00:16:22] through the millennia

[00:16:23] but that's not

[00:16:24] how religion works

[00:16:25] religion is

[00:16:26] is

[00:16:27] is

[00:16:28] is

[00:16:30] constantly

[00:16:31] changing

[00:16:32] evolving

[00:16:35] and

[00:16:36] and

[00:16:39] if we go back in time

[00:16:48] religion

[00:16:49] was based

[00:16:53] on the same level

[00:16:55] of understanding

[00:16:56] of knowledge

[00:16:57] of science

[00:16:58] etc. etc.

[00:16:59] as culture

[00:17:00] at large

[00:17:01] so it's only really

[00:17:03] in modern times

[00:17:04] that

[00:17:06] religion has

[00:17:07] come

[00:17:08] kind of

[00:17:12] backwater

[00:17:14] you know

[00:17:16] area of

[00:17:17] of

[00:17:18] of

[00:17:18] of

[00:17:19] of

[00:17:19] reaction

[00:17:20] and

[00:17:21] conservative

[00:17:23] ideas

[00:17:25] that

[00:17:26] do not

[00:17:27] keep up

[00:17:29] with

[00:17:29] with science

[00:17:32] and with the

[00:17:33] general level

[00:17:35] of knowledge

[00:17:36] in society

[00:17:38] and

[00:17:40] I think

[00:17:41] our world

[00:17:41] would look

[00:17:42] quite

[00:17:42] different

[00:17:43] if religion

[00:17:44] had

[00:17:47] kept pace

[00:17:49] with

[00:17:49] the rest

[00:17:50] of

[00:17:53] development

[00:17:54] in society

[00:17:54] and

[00:17:55] many people

[00:17:56] think that

[00:17:57] religion is

[00:17:58] supposed

[00:17:59] to be

[00:17:59] some kind

[00:18:00] of

[00:18:03] safeguarding

[00:18:04] old

[00:18:05] traditions

[00:18:06] in a very

[00:18:06] conservative

[00:18:07] way

[00:18:07] and

[00:18:08] and

[00:18:08] is

[00:18:09] kind

[00:18:09] of

[00:18:10] bulwark

[00:18:10] against

[00:18:11] new

[00:18:12] new

[00:18:13] developments

[00:18:14] and

[00:18:14] and

[00:18:18] so you've

[00:18:19] got

[00:18:19] these

[00:18:20] weird

[00:18:23] situation

[00:18:23] where

[00:18:24] many

[00:18:25] religious

[00:18:25] people

[00:18:26] don't

[00:18:27] believe

[00:18:28] in

[00:18:28] scientific

[00:18:28] findings

[00:18:29] and

[00:18:30] and

[00:18:31] don't

[00:18:32] believe

[00:18:32] in

[00:18:32] evolution

[00:18:33] they

[00:18:33] don't

[00:18:34] believe

[00:18:34] in

[00:18:34] vaccines

[00:18:35] they

[00:18:36] don't

[00:18:36] believe

[00:18:36] in

[00:18:36] whatever

[00:18:39] and

[00:18:42] that's

[00:18:42] not

[00:18:43] and that's

[00:18:43] not the

[00:18:44] place of

[00:18:44] religion

[00:18:44] in history

[00:18:45] that's

[00:18:46] just

[00:18:47] fraction

[00:18:48] of

[00:18:48] history

[00:18:49] the last

[00:18:49] few

[00:18:49] hundred

[00:18:50] years

[00:18:51] this

[00:18:52] thing

[00:18:55] has

[00:18:56] happened

[00:18:56] and

[00:18:59] when it

[00:19:00] comes to

[00:19:01] texts

[00:19:01] the

[00:19:02] idea

[00:19:03] of

[00:19:04] religious

[00:19:04] texts

[00:19:05] being

[00:19:05] absolutely

[00:19:06] normative

[00:19:07] in a

[00:19:07] sense

[00:19:08] it's

[00:19:08] also

[00:19:08] very

[00:19:09] weird

[00:19:09] idea

[00:19:12] because

[00:19:13] if we

[00:19:13] look at

[00:19:14] the

[00:19:14] history

[00:19:14] of

[00:19:15] holy

[00:19:15] texts

[00:19:16] they

[00:19:17] have

[00:19:17] been

[00:19:18] changed

[00:19:19] and

[00:19:19] rewritten

[00:19:20] and

[00:19:21] complemented

[00:19:22] and

[00:19:22] interpreted

[00:19:23] through

[00:19:23] centuries

[00:19:25] and

[00:19:25] millennia

[00:19:26] and

[00:19:26] that

[00:19:26] is

[00:19:27] completely

[00:19:28] necessary

[00:19:29] in order

[00:19:30] for

[00:19:30] them

[00:19:30] to

[00:19:31] in

[00:19:32] order

[00:19:32] for

[00:19:33] human

[00:19:33] beings

[00:19:34] to be

[00:19:34] able

[00:19:34] to

[00:19:34] use

[00:19:34] ancient

[00:19:35] texts

[00:19:36] with

[00:19:36] some

[00:19:37] kind

[00:19:38] of

[00:19:38] relevancy

[00:19:39] and

[00:19:42] I

[00:19:43] usually

[00:19:44] say that

[00:19:44] religious

[00:19:45] texts

[00:19:45] cannot

[00:19:46] be

[00:19:46] normative

[00:19:47] they

[00:19:47] are

[00:19:48] formative

[00:19:49] they can

[00:19:50] be

[00:19:50] formative

[00:19:51] and

[00:19:52] with

[00:19:52] formative

[00:19:54] I

[00:19:54] mean

[00:19:55] that

[00:19:55] they

[00:19:56] shape

[00:19:57] and

[00:19:57] they

[00:19:57] influence

[00:19:58] human

[00:19:59] cultures

[00:20:01] and

[00:20:02] human

[00:20:02] thinking

[00:20:02] but

[00:20:03] we

[00:20:04] constantly

[00:20:05] negotiate

[00:20:07] with

[00:20:08] them

[00:20:09] we

[00:20:09] discuss

[00:20:09] with

[00:20:10] them

[00:20:10] we

[00:20:11] interpret

[00:20:11] them

[00:20:11] we

[00:20:12] discard

[00:20:13] some

[00:20:13] of

[00:20:13] them

[00:20:13] and

[00:20:13] we

[00:20:14] keep

[00:20:14] some

[00:20:14] of

[00:20:14] them

[00:20:15] some

[00:20:16] of

[00:20:16] these

[00:20:16] texts

[00:20:17] become

[00:20:18] irrelevant

[00:20:19] to us

[00:20:20] because

[00:20:20] we

[00:20:20] know

[00:20:21] more

[00:20:21] things

[00:20:22] than

[00:20:22] other

[00:20:22] things

[00:20:23] we

[00:20:24] do

[00:20:24] not

[00:20:24] you

[00:20:25] know

[00:20:25] we

[00:20:26] cannot

[00:20:26] entertain

[00:20:27] the

[00:20:28] idea

[00:20:29] that

[00:20:29] in

[00:20:31] these

[00:20:31] ancient

[00:20:32] texts

[00:20:32] every

[00:20:33] single

[00:20:34] truth

[00:20:35] about

[00:20:36] human

[00:20:36] life

[00:20:36] and

[00:20:37] human

[00:20:37] society

[00:20:38] and

[00:20:40] the

[00:20:41] human

[00:20:41] world

[00:20:42] every

[00:20:43] physical

[00:20:43] law

[00:20:44] or

[00:20:44] whatever

[00:20:44] was

[00:20:45] revealed

[00:20:46] in some

[00:20:46] mysterious

[00:20:47] way

[00:20:47] they

[00:20:48] are

[00:20:53] context

[00:20:53] on

[00:20:53] their

[00:20:53] culture

[00:20:54] because

[00:20:54] that's

[00:20:55] why

[00:20:55] they

[00:20:55] were

[00:20:55] relevant

[00:20:56] back

[00:20:56] then

[00:20:57] and

[00:20:58] they

[00:21:01] cannot

[00:21:01] be

[00:21:02] relevant

[00:21:02] these

[00:21:03] texts

[00:21:03] cannot

[00:21:03] be

[00:21:23] slowly

[00:21:23] for

[00:21:24] hundreds

[00:21:24] for

[00:21:25] during

[00:21:26] thousands

[00:21:26] of

[00:21:26] years

[00:21:27] this

[00:21:27] world

[00:21:27] has

[00:21:28] changed

[00:21:28] only

[00:21:29] very

[00:21:29] slowly

[00:21:29] and

[00:21:30] gradually

[00:21:31] and

[00:21:31] now

[00:21:32] during

[00:21:32] the

[00:21:32] last

[00:21:33] few

[00:21:34] centuries

[00:21:34] the

[00:21:35] world

[00:21:35] has

[00:21:35] changed

[00:21:37] at

[00:21:37] a

[00:21:37] much

[00:21:37] higher

[00:21:39] pace

[00:21:40] and

[00:21:41] we

[00:21:41] have

[00:21:41] problems

[00:21:42] in

[00:21:42] keeping

[00:21:43] up

[00:21:44] with

[00:21:44] that

[00:21:45] and

[00:21:46] on

[00:21:46] the

[00:21:46] other

[00:21:47] hand

[00:21:47] we

[00:21:47] have

[00:21:47] the

[00:21:47] tools

[00:21:48] we

[00:21:48] have

[00:21:48] historical

[00:21:49] tools

[00:21:49] we

[00:21:49] have

[00:21:49] literary

[00:21:50] tools

[00:21:50] we

[00:21:51] have

[00:21:51] hermeneutical

[00:21:52] tools

[00:21:52] we

[00:21:52] have

[00:21:53] all

[00:21:53] the

[00:21:53] tools

[00:21:53] we

[00:21:54] need

[00:21:54] in

[00:21:54] order

[00:21:55] to

[00:21:55] disentangle

[00:21:56] these

[00:21:56] ancient

[00:21:56] texts

[00:21:57] and

[00:21:57] understand

[00:21:58] why

[00:21:59] they

[00:21:59] look

[00:22:00] like

[00:22:00] they

[00:22:00] do

[00:22:01] what

[00:22:02] they

[00:22:02] meant

[00:22:02] to

[00:22:02] people

[00:22:02] back

[00:22:03] then

[00:22:03] and

[00:22:05] what

[00:22:05] we

[00:22:06] can

[00:22:06] learn

[00:22:06] from

[00:22:06] them

[00:22:06] and

[00:22:07] what

[00:22:07] we

[00:22:08] have

[00:22:08] to

[00:22:11] say

[00:22:12] no

[00:22:12] thank

[00:22:12] you

[00:22:12] to

[00:22:13] because

[00:22:15] the

[00:22:19] preconceptions

[00:22:20] the

[00:22:20] assumptions

[00:22:21] are

[00:22:22] no

[00:22:23] longer

[00:22:24] valid

[00:22:24] or

[00:22:25] no

[00:22:25] longer

[00:22:25] relevant

[00:22:26] I

[00:22:27] think

[00:22:27] that's

[00:22:27] the

[00:22:28] only

[00:22:28] responsible

[00:22:29] way

[00:22:29] we

[00:22:29] can

[00:22:29] use

[00:22:29] religious

[00:22:31] texts

[00:22:32] today

[00:22:35] otherwise

[00:22:35] you know

[00:22:37] in the

[00:22:40] end

[00:22:40] religion

[00:22:41] will

[00:22:41] end up

[00:22:41] in a

[00:22:42] museum

[00:22:42] as

[00:22:43] some

[00:22:43] kind

[00:22:43] of

[00:22:43] obsolete

[00:22:45] phenomenon

[00:22:46] of

[00:22:47] past

[00:22:48] ages

[00:22:48] if

[00:22:49] we

[00:22:50] do

[00:22:50] not

[00:22:52] respect

[00:22:52] the

[00:22:53] basic

[00:22:53] fact

[00:22:54] that

[00:22:54] religion

[00:22:56] is

[00:22:57] a

[00:22:58] way

[00:22:58] of

[00:22:58] dealing

[00:22:59] with

[00:22:59] human

[00:23:00] life

[00:23:00] and

[00:23:00] existence

[00:23:01] existentially

[00:23:02] based

[00:23:03] on

[00:23:04] our

[00:23:05] whole

[00:23:08] human

[00:23:08] history

[00:23:09] and

[00:23:09] what

[00:23:10] we

[00:23:11] have

[00:23:11] inherited

[00:23:11] from

[00:23:13] the

[00:23:13] past

[00:23:14] but

[00:23:14] we

[00:23:14] need

[00:23:15] to

[00:23:15] interpret

[00:23:18] yeah

[00:23:18] I

[00:23:20] absolutely

[00:23:20] agree

[00:23:21] context

[00:23:21] is so

[00:23:22] important

[00:23:22] and

[00:23:23] to

[00:23:23] kind

[00:23:23] of

[00:23:23] sum

[00:23:24] up

[00:23:24] I

[00:23:24] think

[00:23:25] I

[00:23:25] don't

[00:23:25] want

[00:23:25] to

[00:23:25] ruin

[00:23:25] it

[00:23:25] for

[00:23:25] anyone

[00:23:26] who

[00:23:26] hasn't

[00:23:26] read

[00:23:26] the

[00:23:26] book

[00:23:26] yet

[00:23:27] because

[00:23:27] the

[00:23:27] book

[00:23:27] is

[00:23:27] incredible

[00:23:28] and

[00:23:28] you

[00:23:28] should

[00:23:29] all

[00:23:29] go out

[00:23:29] and

[00:23:29] get

[00:23:29] it

[00:23:29] and

[00:23:31] I

[00:23:31] have

[00:23:31] not

[00:23:32] mentioned

[00:23:32] the

[00:23:32] name

[00:23:32] of

[00:23:32] the

[00:23:32] book

[00:23:33] yet

[00:23:33] shame

[00:23:33] on

[00:23:33] me

[00:23:34] and

[00:23:34] so

[00:23:34] it's

[00:23:35] called

[00:23:35] dirt

[00:23:35] shame

[00:23:36] status

[00:23:36] perspectives

[00:23:37] on

[00:23:37] same

[00:23:38] sex

[00:23:38] sexuality

[00:23:38] in

[00:23:39] the

[00:23:39] Bible

[00:23:39] in

[00:23:39] the

[00:23:39] ancient

[00:23:39] world

[00:23:41] go

[00:23:41] ahead

[00:23:41] and

[00:23:41] get

[00:23:42] it

[00:23:42] but

[00:23:42] before

[00:23:42] I

[00:23:42] let

[00:23:42] you

[00:23:42] go

[00:23:44] you

[00:23:45] the

[00:23:45] last

[00:23:46] couple

[00:23:46] paragraphs

[00:23:47] in

[00:23:47] particular

[00:23:48] just

[00:23:48] sum

[00:23:49] up

[00:23:49] the

[00:23:49] book

[00:23:49] so

[00:23:50] perfectly

[00:23:50] and

[00:23:50] you

[00:23:51] have

[00:23:51] some

[00:23:51] great

[00:23:51] lines

[00:23:52] in

[00:23:52] the

[00:23:52] end

[00:23:54] and

[00:23:54] so

[00:23:54] I

[00:23:54] don't

[00:23:55] want

[00:23:55] to

[00:23:55] root

[00:23:55] for

[00:23:55] anybody

[00:23:55] but

[00:23:55] I

[00:23:56] do

[00:24:38] the

[00:24:39] me

[00:24:39] they

[00:24:39] are

[00:24:40] not

[00:24:40] so

[00:24:40] negative

[00:24:40] to

[00:24:41] hierarchies

[00:24:41] as

[00:24:42] I

[00:24:42] am

[00:24:42] and

[00:24:43] of

[00:24:44] course

[00:24:45] there

[00:24:45] are

[00:24:45] a lot

[00:24:46] of

[00:24:46] situations

[00:24:46] in

[00:24:47] which

[00:24:47] we

[00:24:47] need

[00:24:47] certain

[00:24:48] types

[00:24:48] of

[00:24:48] hierarchies

[00:24:49] right

[00:24:50] everyone

[00:24:51] cannot

[00:24:53] decide

[00:24:53] everything

[00:24:54] at the

[00:24:54] same

[00:24:55] time

[00:24:55] but

[00:24:56] we

[00:24:57] need

[00:24:57] structures

[00:24:57] and

[00:24:58] systems

[00:24:58] so

[00:24:59] of

[00:24:59] course

[00:24:59] I

[00:24:59] acknowledge

[00:25:00] that

[00:25:00] but

[00:25:01] this

[00:25:02] kind

[00:25:02] of

[00:25:02] hierarchy

[00:25:03] that

[00:25:03] governs

[00:25:04] kind

[00:25:04] of

[00:25:05] restricts

[00:25:06] restrains

[00:25:07] human

[00:25:08] relationships

[00:25:08] in

[00:25:09] ways

[00:25:09] and

[00:25:12] place

[00:25:13] us

[00:25:13] on a

[00:25:14] scale

[00:25:15] on a

[00:25:17] ladder

[00:25:17] and

[00:25:17] create

[00:25:18] so

[00:25:18] much

[00:25:20] inequality

[00:25:23] it's

[00:25:24] worth

[00:25:24] nothing

[00:25:26] my

[00:25:27] computer

[00:25:28] files

[00:25:29] need

[00:25:29] hierarchy

[00:25:30] otherwise

[00:25:32] I

[00:25:32] wouldn't

[00:25:32] find

[00:25:32] the

[00:25:34] files

[00:25:34] right

[00:25:35] but

[00:25:36] in

[00:25:37] many

[00:25:37] other

[00:25:37] cases

[00:25:38] I

[00:25:38] think

[00:25:39] we

[00:25:39] should

[00:25:39] become

[00:25:39] hierarchy

[00:25:40] busters

[00:25:42] it's

[00:25:43] there

[00:25:47] were

[00:25:48] people

[00:25:49] loving

[00:25:49] each

[00:25:50] other

[00:25:50] in

[00:25:50] antiquity

[00:25:51] whether

[00:25:52] they

[00:25:52] were

[00:25:52] of

[00:25:53] the

[00:25:53] same

[00:25:53] sex

[00:25:54] or

[00:25:54] opposite

[00:25:55] sexes

[00:25:57] but

[00:26:00] hierarchies

[00:26:03] restrained

[00:26:06] the

[00:26:07] ways

[00:26:08] in

[00:26:08] which

[00:26:09] people

[00:26:09] could

[00:26:09] relate

[00:26:10] to

[00:26:10] each

[00:26:10] other

[00:26:10] and

[00:26:11] express

[00:26:11] themselves

[00:26:12] and

[00:26:14] I'm

[00:26:14] afraid

[00:26:14] that

[00:26:15] hierarchies

[00:26:15] still

[00:26:17] restrain

[00:26:18] us

[00:26:18] in

[00:26:18] many

[00:26:19] ways

[00:26:19] today

[00:26:21] we

[00:26:21] have

[00:26:22] far

[00:26:22] much

[00:26:23] more

[00:26:24] of

[00:26:24] hierarchy

[00:26:25] in

[00:26:25] our

[00:26:25] modern

[00:26:26] societies

[00:26:26] than

[00:26:31] we

[00:26:32] benefit

[00:26:32] from

[00:26:33] it's

[00:26:35] yeah

[00:26:36] yeah

[00:26:36] yeah

[00:26:37] I'm

[00:26:38] happy

[00:26:38] of that

[00:26:38] last

[00:26:39] sentence

[00:26:40] as well

[00:26:40] actually

[00:26:41] the death

[00:26:41] of

[00:26:41] hierarchy

[00:26:42] is

[00:26:42] opportunity

[00:26:42] of

[00:26:43] love

[00:26:44] love

[00:26:46] love

[00:26:47] how

[00:26:48] it

[00:26:48] survives

[00:27:16] hierarchy

[00:27:20] ebay

[00:27:20] and co

[00:27:21] werben

[00:27:21] und

[00:27:21] verkaufen

[00:27:22] neue

[00:27:23] zielgruppen

[00:27:23] zu erreichen

[00:27:24] war noch nie

[00:27:24] so einfach

[00:27:25] shopify

[00:27:26] bietet

[00:27:27] auf einer

[00:27:27] einzigen

[00:27:28] sicheren

[00:27:28] plattform

[00:27:29] alle tools

[00:27:29] um dein

[00:27:30] online

[00:27:30] business

[00:27:30] aufzubauen

[00:27:32] kostenlos

[00:27:33] testen

[00:27:33] und dein

[00:27:33] business

[00:27:34] der welt

[00:27:34] präsentieren

[00:27:35] shopify.de

[00:27:37] schrägstrich

[00:27:37] try

[00:27:38] besuchen

[00:27:38] einfach

[00:27:39] shopify.de

[00:27:40] schrägstrich

[00:27:41] try

[00:27:41] eingeben

[00:27:42] und loslegen

[00:27:43] made

[00:27:44] for germany

[00:27:45] powered

[00:27:45] by shopify

[00:27:48] that's

[00:27:49] such a

[00:27:50] great

[00:27:51] great line

[00:27:51] and such

[00:27:52] an amazing

[00:27:52] way to

[00:27:53] tie your

[00:27:53] book

[00:27:54] together

[00:27:54] thank you

[00:27:55] so much

[00:27:56] for coming

[00:27:56] on and

[00:27:57] sharing

[00:27:57] your research

[00:27:59] i think

[00:27:59] this is

[00:28:01] it's been

[00:28:02] a very

[00:28:02] important

[00:28:02] topic

[00:28:03] i think

[00:28:03] even more

[00:28:04] so now

[00:28:04] in light

[00:28:04] of

[00:28:06] you know

[00:28:06] what we're

[00:28:07] facing over

[00:28:08] here in the

[00:28:08] united states

[00:28:09] in terms

[00:28:09] of

[00:28:10] you know

[00:28:11] sort of

[00:28:12] the changes

[00:28:12] to laws

[00:28:13] or the

[00:28:13] potential

[00:28:14] changes

[00:28:14] to laws

[00:28:15] and

[00:28:16] the ways

[00:28:17] which we

[00:28:17] protect

[00:28:18] and treat

[00:28:19] our

[00:28:20] you know

[00:28:21] the folks

[00:28:21] that

[00:28:22] are

[00:28:22] neighbors

[00:28:23] and

[00:28:23] brothers

[00:28:23] and sisters

[00:28:24] within the

[00:28:24] lgbtq

[00:28:25] plus community

[00:28:26] so

[00:28:27] be interesting

[00:28:28] to see

[00:28:28] how things

[00:28:29] go

[00:28:29] but you

[00:28:31] know

[00:28:31] i think

[00:28:31] this is a

[00:28:32] very

[00:28:32] very

[00:28:32] important

[00:28:33] topic

[00:28:34] to discuss

[00:28:34] and i

[00:28:35] just

[00:28:35] appreciate

[00:28:35] you coming

[00:28:36] on

[00:28:36] well

[00:28:37] thank you

[00:28:37] very much

[00:28:38] john

[00:28:38] it was

[00:28:38] a pleasure

[00:28:39] does she

[00:28:49] care

[00:28:50] that i

[00:28:51] doubt

[00:28:51] does she

[00:28:52] care

[00:28:54] something

[00:28:55] tell

[00:28:57] if god

[00:29:31] has a

[00:29:32] face

[00:29:33] his face

[00:29:34] must look

[00:29:35] like

[00:29:36] yours

[00:30:02] looks like

[00:30:04] a

[00:30:56] has a face

[00:30:58] her face

[00:30:59] must look

[00:31:00] like

[00:31:01] yours

[00:31:13] like

[00:31:13] tina

[00:31:14] and

[00:31:15] ahmed

[00:31:16] or

[00:31:16] mildred

[00:31:17] or

[00:31:18] russ

[00:31:19] and his

[00:31:19] husband

[00:31:20] gus

[00:31:21] and their

[00:31:22] children

[00:31:22] face

[00:31:24] like

[00:31:24] a

[00:31:24] kim

[00:31:25] a ted

[00:31:26] or tyrone

[00:31:28] with

[00:31:30] an

[00:31:31] extra

[00:31:32] crone