What happens when the version of you that survived… isn’t the version of you that’s whole?
In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Cristy Carr, we move deeper—beyond awareness and into the work of healing. Together, we explore what it looks like to reconnect with the parts of ourselves that were silenced, shaped, or suppressed by trauma, religious systems, and the need to belong.
This episode isn’t about quick fixes or easy answers. It’s about the slow, often uncomfortable process of becoming whole again.
Dr. Cristy Carr is a therapist, speaker, and author of The Forgotten Self. Her work focuses on trauma, identity formation, and helping individuals reconnect with their authentic selves—especially those navigating faith transitions and deconstruction.
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00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_04]: when you remember that you are actually a beautiful soul.
00:03 --> 00:05 [SPEAKER_04]: deeply, deeply loved.
00:05 --> 00:08 [SPEAKER_04]: You can come back to who you truly are.
00:08 --> 00:23 [SPEAKER_04]: And you can come back to what I don't know if you've heard of Dr. Lisa Miller, that she's done research at Columbia about spirituality is our innate birthright every single person is divine, is designed to have a connection with the divine.
00:24 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is what spiritually suffers.
00:26 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_04]: So when you heal from this, you can come back to this forgotten self and realize that you are a beautiful soul,
00:33 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Deeply worthy of love and that's the healing process.
00:40 --> 00:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the deconstructed podcast on your host John Williamson, and we are back with part 2, and if part 1 was about recognizing the self we lost, then part 2 is about what it looks like to find it again.
00:54 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Because once you start pulling on those threads, questioning beliefs, rethinking identity, letting go of certainty, you don't just lose something, you actually create space, but space can be uncomfortable, even disoriented.
01:07 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you do with it?
01:09 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you begin to build?
01:11 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Not from pressure of fear, but from something more honest.
01:15 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We are back with Dr. Christi S. Carr continuing our conversation around her book The Forgotten Self.
01:21 --> 01:32 [SPEAKER_01]: In this episode we explore what it actually looks like to reconnect with your inner self, the role of embodiment, awareness and healing, and how to move forward without needing to have everything figured out.
01:33 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And just a quick reminder, if you want to go deeper with us, our new Patreon is now live with exclusive content, bonus episodes, and educational videos.
01:44 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to support the show in another way, check out our merch store, now shipping worldwide, we've got some really great new designs on there.
01:52 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Because maybe the goal isn't certainty, maybe it's integration, maybe it's homelessness.
01:57 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This is part two of our conversation with Dr. Christi Carr.
02:07 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I have a lot of women that are in their 30s and 40s.
02:11 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_04]: Never have had a sexual experience.
02:13 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know.
02:14 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that's interesting too is having gained a lot of friends through, there's a huge evangelical movement here based in Columbus, Ohio.
02:22 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of offshoots all around.
02:24 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not uncommon around to somebody who's like, oh yeah, I tend one of the other campuses or whatever.
02:29 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But what I started to notice after I got through my 30s into my 40s is I started to notice that,
02:36 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of our couples friends got married really, really young and they would tell you for a variety of reasons.
02:43 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_01]: One being that they wanted to have sex.
02:46 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
02:46 --> 02:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's the only way you could without feeling like you're terrible sinner, right?
02:51 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_04]: And that you're possibly going to go to hell.
02:53 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_04]: It's terrible because that's a natural state of development.
02:57 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_04]: very healthy.
02:58 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_04]: And people that have grew up in this system cannot even allow themselves to connect to their own natural human desires, because they think it's sinful and wrong.
03:08 --> 03:09 [SPEAKER_04]: So you have to wait until you're married.
03:09 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's not how the body works.
03:11 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_04]: You can't just turn that on just because now you're married.
03:14 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you've told your body a message for decades.
03:18 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_04]: And there's a lot of couples that have very difficult intimacy within their marriage, even because they have been told
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_04]: that it's not okay.
03:28 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_04]: You're not okay.
03:28 --> 03:29 [SPEAKER_04]: This is okay.
03:30 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_04]: You can't feel erotic, right?
03:32 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_04]: You can't feel these natural things because it's wrong, but in marriage it's okay.
03:36 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_04]: So just turn that on.
03:38 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not how that works.
03:39 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
03:39 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
03:39 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard tons of stories about how and negatively impacted their intimacy, you know, in marriage later in life because, you know, they've been told and taught for so long that that's almost like that's dirty.
03:51 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
03:52 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_04]: It's
03:54 --> 04:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Not that you're dirty, you're dirty for wanting this, you're dirty for liking this, you're dirty until you get married.
04:03 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_04]: But then now there's no developmental, natural progression of your body understanding what that feels like.
04:09 --> 04:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And you know, it's just allowing that process.
04:13 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Now it's all of a sudden that just you need to turn that on and you cannot
04:17 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_04]: because you've shut that down for soul right.
04:19 --> 04:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
04:20 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And then you're there's no one to go talk to about it, right?
04:22 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
04:22 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
04:23 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
04:23 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Who are they going to talk to?
04:24 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
04:26 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the other thing I've noticed too is with a lot of these couples who who got married young and who soul identity was sort of built
04:42 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_01]: who the other person is, you know, because now all of a sudden they're finding their their identities and they're often realizing that we're not really good match and so there's a high divorce rate.
04:52 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed, you know, throughout throughout these couples and a lot of them are sort of having.
05:00 --> 05:16 [SPEAKER_01]: going through a deconstruction probably later than maybe they perhaps would have had they been an environment that allowed for that, but it sort of feels like it happened later maybe it was a late development and all of a sudden they're finding you know as their middle
05:16 --> 05:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Adults, holy cow, we have nothing in common and we got married super young before we even knew who we were And did exactly what the church should do and now they're finding like, oh man, I mean, I've seen folks who like have had no careers there in tireless and now they find themselves at 40 like
05:32 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we've got to figure out what to do for living, like who am I, like what do I like, like all these big questions that like organically typically you walk through in your teens and 20s, you know.
05:43 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
05:43 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_04]: So interesting.
05:44 --> 05:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Have you ever heard of Dr. James Fowler work?
05:47 --> 05:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
05:47 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
05:48 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
05:48 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
05:48 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_04]: So the stage is a faith development.
05:50 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
05:51 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_04]: So that is the stage for the individual reflective stage.
05:55 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_04]: My understanding and research and working with people is that evangelicalism arrests a person at a very immature stage of faith development and like an adolescent stage that stage three they do you are not allowed to come out of that because to come out of that you have to begin to question and when you begin to question you are ostracized so you you stop.
06:18 --> 06:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Because it's not allowed.
06:19 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So we have a evangelicalism, like 25 million people.
06:24 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_04]: It's the largest considered subculture of religion.
06:27 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_04]: There isn't a United States.
06:28 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_04]: So we have 25 million or so right people that are stuck in a very spiritually immature stage of development and they're not allowed.
06:38 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_04]: to do the growth of deepening your faith.
06:41 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_04]: And then, so there's, well, I'll tell you this.
06:44 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_04]: So there's a theory called the theory of shattered assumptions.
06:47 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so there's three constructs that people most people believe for psychological well-being.
06:54 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so one is like I'm just going to go through my notes.
06:58 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_04]: One is the world has been avalanche, okay?
07:01 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And people
07:02 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_04]: are generally good.
07:04 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_04]: The first, that's the first belief.
07:05 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_04]: The second one is the world is meaningful, and good things happen to good people, and that the third is the self is worthy, and you have power and control over life's outcomes.
07:15 --> 07:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Evangelicalism, obstructs all three of these.
07:19 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_04]: because the first, the world is banal, but now, the world is evil.
07:22 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And no good thing comes from people, people are evil.
07:25 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So, right?
07:26 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_04]: The second, the world is meaningful.
07:27 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_04]: No, you must escape this.
07:29 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_04]: You must live for heaven, like the rapture, all of these things.
07:33 --> 07:34 [SPEAKER_04]: And then the self is worthy.
07:34 --> 07:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And then evangelicals believe that you're evil and deceitful.
07:38 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_04]: So, all these three constructs that help people become psychological well-being, right?
07:45 --> 07:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And you're like, and then, at a point in your life, you're going, there's going to be things that challenge these assumptions.
07:51 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_04]: That's how we grow.
07:52 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_04]: That's how we mature.
07:54 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_04]: That's how we begin to go from an adolescent, believing everything we're taught, to being a more of an individual,
08:06 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_04]: who am I actually?
08:08 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_04]: And with you don't have these three to start with, you can't that inhibits you from actually being able to grow and mature as human being.
08:17 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_04]: It arrests you at such a immature state of being.
08:21 --> 08:23 [SPEAKER_04]: It is so very sad.
08:23 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like it explains a lot just in terms of, you know, I love and hate social media.
08:28 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it for the funny memes, but I hate it for everything else.
08:31 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are just these arguments that go on that I don't remember and maybe just this is my old memory.
08:37 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Just not recalling things correctly anymore.
08:39 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
08:40 --> 08:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But it seems like it gets angry or an angry.
08:42 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like there are less actual discussions that occur online and more.
08:46 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So people trying to hit each other over the head with their opinions and their perspectives.
08:52 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this helps explain why when confronted with conflicting facts, why a person who has been indoctrinated for so long, is this going to look blankly at me and just be like, no, there's no amount of facts, and I'm going to be able to throw it then.
09:08 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be interesting.
09:09 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_04]: No, absolutely not because their stage 4 is the question in stage, a fate development where you actually begin, it's very painful, very painful process.
09:18 --> 09:24 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what most of these people are doing in this deconstruction, you have to in order to find your own fate.
09:25 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And who you actually are, it's a beautiful process.
09:28 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_04]: But the church doesn't, the evangelical church doesn't allow that or doesn't even support that.
09:32 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_04]: So you can't get to the next stage, which is stage 5, which is where you hold
09:39 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_04]: where you can believe something and not lose what you believe while you're talking to someone, who believes something completely different, and not a conflict.
09:47 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Because of it, you learn, you can hold yourself and learn from others because you have a strong sense of self, but there is no strong sense of autonomy.
09:57 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_04]: It's what was, again, what someone outside of me said I have to believe, not what I actually believe.
10:03 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, they'll just argue over meaningless points because they haven't yet evolved to the fact where they can know that they're safe if someone outside that doesn't believe exactly the way they believe.
10:16 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It's okay.
10:17 --> 10:19 [SPEAKER_04]: But to them, it's dangerous.
10:19 --> 10:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
10:19 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oftentimes I've heard the term, you know, spiritual warfare.
10:24 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting because I've always felt for a long time of convinced that the devil, you know, as this, you know, this actual, like a noun, you know, like an actual entity, becomes a very convenient scapegoat for bad decisions that adults make in this life.
10:40 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, through those bad decisions, creating a ripple effect that to some would feel like hell.
10:45 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So, so talk about what is the starting point then?
10:48 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you help someone?
10:50 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause obviously you have to start at a different point to be able to even get to as you said the four stage in the fifth stage.
10:57 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So what is the right starting point here?
11:00 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_01]: If there is one.
11:00 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, again, that's very delicate for every person because what you went through how long you've been involved at how many of your family members, friends, like where are you where you stand at that?
11:11 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Or anyone listening who's gone through this,
11:16 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_04]: thing I want to say is you are loved.
11:19 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure you don't feel that way.
11:22 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_04]: And that is sad and tragic, but you are.
11:24 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's really the most important thing that someone can do is begin to connect to their bodies because our bodies are where it holds wisdom and what it gives us messages.
11:33 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_04]: And in such a destructive system, we disconnect our mind from our bodies.
11:40 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_04]: So we
11:40 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Feel and so it's learning to listen to your gut like for your listeners right now all the things that we've been talking about What is your body saying like like do you is your jaw clenching?
11:50 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have tightness in your chest?
11:52 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have tightness in your neck and your shoulders is your gut?
11:56 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have a pit?
11:57 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Do you feel nauseous?
11:58 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_04]: This is your body speaking and you need to begin to listen
12:01 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_04]: because your body has messages that will help you to trust yourself, to reconnect with yourself, because there's an innate wisdom in each soul.
12:10 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Your intuition will guide your way, but you have to be able to connect to that, and that's what was severed, but there is a way that is a path back to that.
12:19 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Every single person has that, and it's learning to listen, little by little, by little, and be a mess.
12:25 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to have the right answer.
12:27 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Stay in
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_04]: There is no right or wrong.
12:32 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for a lot of folks, that's you're telling you.
12:34 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_04]: That is stating.
12:35 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to go against what's comfortable, to me, because there are a lot of folks.
12:39 --> 12:49 [SPEAKER_01]: It took, I mean, I'll be honest, personally, it took me a long time to get to a place where not only am I okay with ambiguity and mystery, but I actually really like it.
12:49 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's, it doesn't feel like a natural human instinct.
12:52 --> 12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The natural human instinct feels like, go with what's safe and certain, you know, and like black white.
12:58 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Not if you want to grow.
13:00 --> 13:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
13:00 --> 13:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, if you want to mature, if you want to, that each person, this is we have to challenge what we think in order to grow.
13:07 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_04]: It's natural and it's actually good.
13:09 --> 13:15 [SPEAKER_04]: But when you've been taught, it's dangerous, then you certainty has become an idol, we'll say.
13:15 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I have to know what in the end people coming out of this, the most important thing is that you're not with someone that tells you what to believe, because that's what you're coming out of.
13:24 --> 13:27 [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't need that,
13:27 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_04]: and to learn that it's actually safe there.
13:30 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually very safe and the curiosity is what will guide you forward and let your life unfold as it does and you can begin to trust that.
13:41 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_04]: But you're right, when silence or conformity is what you needed to survive, to tell yourself something different.
13:50 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_04]: You have to, it's a very fragile slow plot.
13:52 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no rush.
13:54 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_04]: You cannot rush this.
13:55 --> 13:56 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no steps.
13:56 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_04]: that you can go, hey, I did this, this, this check, check, check, okay, I'm good, it's a delicate process of it's a continual process you'll be in the rest of your life and thank God right because we're going to constantly grow and it's all about learning I mean the biggest thing is trusting yourself because you were taught not to so that the first thing you can do is learn that I can.
14:16 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: you're speaking our language over here.
14:18 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
14:18 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We've been saying that for years.
14:20 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, it's true.
14:21 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lifelong, you know, when we first started this, like about 10 years ago now, actually, we recorded our first episode in December of 2016.
14:30 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think when we first started, now, you know, we thought, surely, you know, if these churches are doing it wrong, quote, wrong, you know, then there's surely a good way to do it.
14:39 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're gonna figure it out.
14:41 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_01]: before too long and having conversations with other folks over the years and hearing other stories it became obvious that no, and furthermore, I don't want to replace one type of certainty with another, because that's just a fundamentalism on the opposite side of the screen.
14:56 --> 14:57 [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
14:57 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
14:58 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_04]: And the other thing I want to say is that there's no one to blame.
15:02 --> 15:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Blaming is not going to help any of the seal.
15:03 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_04]: This is a systemic problem that has happened.
15:07 --> 15:19 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, since what the 300s make the council of NICA, when they decided to make a canon and choose what was in there and disregard everything else that they called heresy because it didn't conform to some certain belief system.
15:19 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So this is distant happen overnight.
15:22 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_04]: There is no person that to be
15:24 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_04]: To place your anger in or blame too because again, these people in the system, these pastors, these leaders, these worship leaders, everybody, that's in this, they are part of the system, they are of also a victim of the system, right, it's not one person's fault, but we actually, we have to look at it, we have to face this pain to heal from it and to look at it with compassion and not like you're saying like if you, if you, if you come out of the system and you hold some of these like, um,
15:53 --> 16:01 [SPEAKER_04]: dualistic view points, right, and because you want to be right, then you really, you're still part of that.
16:01 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_04]: You, you'll, you'll have to learn that it's, everyone has their own walk in this life, and some, some will stay in that conformity.
16:08 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_04]: They're just going to, and we have to be okay with that.
16:11 --> 16:31 [SPEAKER_04]: But if you are being challenged, if your soul is witnessing to you and speaking and screaming to you like wait There's more this can't be all that there is love is different than this does does not feel like like Listen, but don't try to make someone else feel what you feel because you cannot yeah Yeah, we used to say all the time you can't take someone's journey for them.
16:31 --> 16:34 [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, and we'll go ahead No, that's okay
16:35 --> 16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just going to say what's interesting too is, you know, we used to sort of give this warning, like, no, no experts, you know, be okay with being able to to walk in and say, you know what, I don't know, and that's okay.
16:48 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when people would ask, you know, how do I find the right church and I'm like, it's really just, you know, situational really like I happen to find a really good one in my neighborhood, but I'm not going to see here and say every ELC Lutheran church is awesome, because I'm sure there are some that are terrible, you know, and.
17:04 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: preaching things that I wouldn't agree with.
17:06 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say, I used to tell people, I would tell you one thing that I would I would ask.
17:11 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And if depending on how they answer, it might make me run away.
17:14 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is if they can't say, I don't know.
17:18 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great question.
17:19 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Then that tells me a lot.
17:21 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_01]: If they've got it all figured out, then that's problematic to me.
17:25 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_04]: And they're trying to tell you what you have to believe that run, run out at the door and
17:31 --> 17:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so one of the things I'm really interested in, I've been working on a lot lately, which is kind of funny that you're email popped into my inbox because I just finished this podcast series that literally is about an evangelical movement that's done a colossal amount of damage, you know, all over the spectrum, you know, from, you know, hurt someone's feelings, all the way to sexual assault that they did not handle in the way that they should have and everything in between.
17:55 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: and one of the things it seems to pop up to me that seems to kind of manifest is the sense of sort of arrogance and what's weird to me about it.
18:06 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you encountered this in your research,
18:08 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Often it seems that and I don't want to paint broad strokes here necessarily, but in my investigation into this particular movement, it seems that there is a looser or less amount of education required to be ordained as a pastor and then on the flip side, which kind of struck me as weird, is they're less educated, but a little bit more arrogant in terms of
18:33 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_01]: things that they believe that they can and should handle.
18:36 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I mean by that is instances where, you know, and I'll just speak from my own personal experience, again, not to in the horn of evangelical Lutheran churches necessarily, but this is just my experience.
18:47 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So my dad's retired ELC
18:50 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are moments where I'll look at my dad, I'm like, would you have handled that yourself or would you have passed that off to an actual therapist?
18:56 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, yeah, one of the things they teach us is to know where your limits are and say, it's not appropriate for me.
19:03 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not equipped or educated enough to handle this thing.
19:07 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to refer you to a really good therapist who can.
19:10 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like there's not that line for a lot of evangelical churches.
19:14 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard too many stories at this point where someone came to them with an issue and they tried to cancel it in-house and inevitably made it worse, but again, there seems to be this connection, this sort of perfect storm of lack of
19:29 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_01]: of intense education combined with sort of this hubris that leads him to believe that they're ordained by God, it can therefore handle everything that comes their way and they don't need to trust God's other hands out there.
19:42 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so tell me about like, is that something you encountered as well?
19:46 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, one of the themes that was come across was mental health was seen as a spiritual weakness, right?
19:53 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_04]: And so if you're depressed, if you have anxiety, then you're spiritually oppressed, right?
19:58 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_04]: So again, the message is, pray harder.
20:01 --> 20:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Be drivable more.
20:02 --> 20:04 [SPEAKER_04]: worship more, over and over again.
20:04 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I hear, right?
20:06 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_04]: And then you don't trust psychology, right?
20:11 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't trust traditional forms of treatment if they're not spiritual, like so they if they're not Christian then you can't don't go to them, right?
20:20 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So then they have the, you know, the in-house counselors that are not trained,
20:25 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_04]: and rarely trained in trauma, right?
20:28 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And so, and you have all these ideals, like say with a marriage, like the man is ahead of the household, and all these gender roles, and that understanding that there's harm happening.
20:38 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_04]: And so they don't see the nuance of things that's not trained to see that.
20:42 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_04]: So they're trained with one lens.
20:43 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And so when you go see some dots, that's all that they can give you.
20:47 --> 20:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And so they don't really understand their development.
20:49 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_04]: They don't understand development of faces, and, you know, even children.
20:53 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_04]: doing disciplining with kids and how that's it.
20:56 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I could go on and on about all kinds of things, but when you don't trust anyone outside your system, then you cannot grow because you're never going to be challenged.
21:05 --> 21:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.
21:07 --> 21:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw I heard a story about somebody who worked with the
21:11 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The pastor that eventually became the head of the entire U.S. King Galameration of churches in this movement, and they brought him some really well-research information on a contrary viewpoint on homosexuality of the Bible, a more affirming stance.
21:28 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And this individual's reaction was like,
21:32 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Right?
21:32 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly what they say, because they, what you cannot be questioned, they know every I don't mean to say, can you say they will say that in this system?
21:40 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Again, because it's not a person within them's self that we're at fault, we're like we're trying to find fault with this is a systemic problem.
21:47 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Like this is what people have been taught for centuries and decades and generations.
21:53 --> 21:54 [SPEAKER_04]: And they literally believe this is true.
21:55 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_04]: They actually believe if they don't
22:02 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_04]: the meaning behind many people that are going to these churches, they're beautiful people, not actually trying to harm anyone, and not knowing the devastating harm that is being caused.
22:14 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_04]: That's they're just blind.
22:15 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:16 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's it's that's completely true too.
22:18 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the experience that I had as well when when talking to people and interviewing people for a for spoiled fruit is I generally believe that there are well intentioned well-meaning people, but again to your point.
22:30 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and that's what I tried to convey in that in that series as yes, we started with some stories about trauma.
22:36 --> 22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that we're more localized, you know, one that happened in Duluth, Minnesota and then some other stories that are coming out now out of one of their churches in Anaheim, California, but the point I tried to get to later in the series is is we have to look at if we want to understand how those things happen, we have to look at the larger picture, which is what is what is the system like and how did it allow these things to happen and to
22:59 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: to thrive and to continue to happen.
23:02 --> 23:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you see there's no checks and balances built into the system.
23:05 --> 23:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, like we talked about at the beginning, a lot so much of their theology is based around shame that, you know, it sort of keeps people in check.
23:14 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, puts butts and seats, you know, they have these, they're growing mega churches here there and everywhere, but you know, when you have that very dualistic framework, it becomes much easier to control people.
23:24 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, no one wants to go into a church and be like, and have the pastor be like,
23:29 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_01]: you know I do but like a lot of people are like no I want this person to make sense of why the hell we keep having gun violence in schools you know like why does this crazy stuff keep happening all these bad things happen like I I want you know of course the instinct to have somebody who is very black and white sort of be like well it's because we're being punished okay you know
23:49 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_04]: and then you integrate that into your being and then further disconnect from yourself.
23:54 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
23:54 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And others.
23:55 --> 24:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing is, with others, now you can't have compassion towards someone who doesn't exactly like you and you're threatened by some of the questions you.
24:03 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_04]: So these people who you're interviewing can't even say, like, oh, wow, I didn't know that.
24:07 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Can you send me that research I'd love to learn more about that?
24:10 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_04]: They're like, no, I've learned everything I need to know.
24:12 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_04]: It's out of fear, which they just don't aren't aware of it, right?
24:15 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_04]: It's because their internal system will get dismantled if you begin to question.
24:20 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So they don't.
24:21 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably not even conscious.
24:23 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably really subconscious.
24:25 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so much of that evangelical theology, absolutely, we can trace it back to a place where it's derived out of fear, because the whole reason they created that the fundamentalists,
24:37 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_01]: literature was a reaction to science and the advancement of science and the proposal of evolution.
24:45 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So much of that was just born out of fear.
24:47 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, when you take, you know, the father, so to say, of modern even get evangelicalism is John Darby.
24:57 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_04]: And so that in the 1800s and then CI school filled,
25:05 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, oh, well, see, I still feel it's systemized at deal moody popularized.
25:08 --> 25:11 [SPEAKER_04]: The deal moody actually felt something completely different.
25:11 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_04]: But he never changed what he taught in his schools.
25:14 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, moody Bible wants to do.
25:15 --> 25:18 [SPEAKER_04]: He was still within this system of fear.
25:18 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So literalism of the Bible was never a thing before this movement.
25:24 --> 25:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And definitely not dispensationalism.
25:27 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_04]: That was never taught, never believed, ever.
25:30 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_04]: until John Garvey, literalism now of what the Bible says is actually literal, you know, Jesus taught everything in parables, why we think everything is literal, I don't understand.
25:41 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_04]: But so now it, right?
25:42 --> 25:58 [SPEAKER_04]: And so he taught that it was the dispensation, so God accidentally in different times and periods in the prophecy and then began to create his own belief system in the rapture, which
25:58 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_04]: nowhere and that became the formation of what we now have as modern American evangelicalism.
26:05 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_04]: But if you talk to people that attend these, they have no idea.
26:08 --> 26:12 [SPEAKER_04]: They have no idea why they believe what they believed and where came from.
26:12 --> 26:19 [SPEAKER_01]: We just covered that and I just did a sort of educational series where we dug into the history of of dispensationalism.
26:19 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We did a series on Israel and Gaza.
26:22 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We did one on the rapture, we did one on all these different things where I'm like, guys, like, you don't have to dig very far to find out that this is not what really Christians believed.
26:33 --> 26:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, not even what all Christians believe today, if you look at Europe and Eastern Orthodox, like, it didn't run with any of this original sin business.
26:41 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, when you tell someone that has been then ingrained in this evangelical system that not every Christian believes that they are shocked.
26:49 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like I remember working with people and telling them do are you aware that original sin is not real like that's not what they that's not even what Jesus taught Yeah, that's not what Jesus ever taught.
26:59 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't into a gustant right right.
27:02 --> 27:07 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's where it came from in 350 and they're like no, I'm like yeah, you don't have to believe that you're
27:07 --> 27:08 [SPEAKER_04]: a piece of shit.
27:08 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to believe that you are depraved because it's not what Jesus taught.
27:11 --> 27:12 [SPEAKER_04]: And they're like, what?
27:12 --> 27:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's shifted in this, I'm just saying in this one client, I work with shifted her deeply.
27:19 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And she's beginning to just blossom and who she is because she's no longer believing that she's inherently evil, terrible.
27:27 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
27:27 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it is beautiful that she's only, but how many people believe this?
27:31 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
27:32 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I'm doing this work.
27:34 --> 27:36 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why this is why I'm doing this work.
27:36 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that you're doing it in something that you mentioned right off the top it's interesting I had interviewed like I said one other
27:45 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_01]: uh, expert in terms of religious trauma, but and even she mentioned she did the same thing where she sort of fell into it by accident because she kept having clients come to her who had the similar, you know, traumas.
27:59 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And so she also did her dissertation and and got her PhD based on the back of like doing research into this thing that isn't taught in school.
28:08 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, we weren't equipped for this when we came out and yet,
28:11 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I'm telling listeners out there now, if you want to learn something that's going to be very, very useful, because there are thousands upon thousands of people out there who are coming out of this.
28:22 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Millions.
28:23 --> 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: There, yeah, I was being generous, but yes.
28:26 --> 28:48 [SPEAKER_01]: right and you know and it's still happening today I had a guy who interrupted me cooking one night not too long ago who was starting a church in my neighborhood and he had to me some very glossy and very nice looking pamphlets and things and so I graciously took them and and in talking to him you know before he leaves it's like can I have you do one more thing can you put that card over and I was like god here we go
28:48 --> 28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I knew it was coming and I flipped it over and it's like, if you died today, do you know where you would go?
28:54 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Why didn't I look down?
28:55 --> 28:55 [SPEAKER_04]: This is a good message.
28:56 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_01]: No, and I said, at the foundation of it, I just kind of looked at it.
29:01 --> 29:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this really works?
29:03 --> 29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this, this driving people to God through fear?
29:06 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, as a history,
29:07 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_01]: nerd, you know, all you have to do is look at the history of a talker season and and and dictatorships and sure it gets people aligned for a while, but what's the first thing the people do as soon as they get a chance to kick that guy out of power, you know, they do because it's not going to change anyone's heart.
29:29 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing is, that is not a message of love.
29:32 --> 29:34 [SPEAKER_04]: No, God is love, which I absolutely believe he is.
29:35 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_04]: There's no question in my mind.
29:37 --> 29:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Then that is not love.
29:38 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I think as a parent, like, I work with people and they'll say, well, you know, but I don't deserve it.
29:43 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you've probably heard people say this, but I know I don't deserve it and that's one thing.
29:48 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I don't ever try to tell someone to want to believe because that's not what I'm supposed to do and I don't want to, I want to help them figure out what they believe that's healthy.
29:56 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm like, okay, wait, I can't.
29:58 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_04]: absolutely deserve to be loved.
30:00 --> 30:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So anyone that makes you think you don't deserve the love of God, that is a terrible abusive message.
30:06 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_04]: You absolutely deserve to be loved.
30:09 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So as a parent, I don't know if you have children.
30:11 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_04]: I would never tell my children.
30:12 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you should feel really glad that I love you.
30:15 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_04]: You should be thankful and grateful that I love you because you don't deserve it.
30:19 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:20 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you're all for sister screwed up.
30:22 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:22 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, right.
30:23 --> 30:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to have that with you or do it?
30:24 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:25 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
30:25 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_04]: But the thing is, no, we absolutely deserve to be loved.
30:29 --> 30:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Jesus does.
30:30 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why he came.
30:31 --> 30:35 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's the message of the, the true gospel is love.
30:35 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_04]: You are never separated from love.
30:37 --> 30:38 [SPEAKER_04]: You never have been.
30:38 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_04]: You never will be.
30:40 --> 30:43 [SPEAKER_04]: There is nothing you can do that will ever separate you from love.
30:43 --> 30:45 [SPEAKER_04]: That is the message and anything.
30:46 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite evangelical term.
30:47 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and if anything come, come back to that message, then you better question, who's saying it to you?
30:54 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_04]: Because that is not the gospel of truth.
30:56 --> 30:57 [SPEAKER_04]: That is not the gospel of love.
30:57 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_04]: That is not what Jesus taught, and it's definitely not what you should believe.
31:01 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Eddie creates a paradox, isn't it?
31:03 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Because what it says to me is if you're going to tell me that,
31:06 --> 31:20 [SPEAKER_01]: My neighbor, who I loved dearly, who's Hindu, is going to burn in Hell for eternity, which seems a little aggressive, but just because they don't believe in Jesus, and I love them, and I would let them into heaven, that their form makes me more loving than God.
31:20 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right.
31:22 --> 31:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not that they don't believe in Jesus, it's that they don't believe the way I believe in Jesus.
31:27 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_04]: right or love.
31:28 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_04]: So I'll just say, well, someone can, you know, could be Buddhist, could be Hindu, could be Muslim, could be Sufiism, it doesn't matter to me.
31:35 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_04]: It's about love.
31:36 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what as you mature in your own development, you can hold that with someone else and go, oh, it's beautiful for you.
31:43 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so glad that you feel loved by something divine, right?
31:49 --> 31:51 [SPEAKER_04]: Because no one really knows, that's the other thing.
31:51 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_04]: We don't actually know.
31:53 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:53 --> 31:54 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's okay.
31:55 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Because that keeps us in this curiosity and in the unknown, and the unknown is my favorite place to be.
32:01 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Because that's for its full of possibility and potential.
32:04 --> 32:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Because that's what helps us continue to draw and to learn and to mature and be kind and compassionate.
32:11 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_04]: to others because everyone has something to teach us.
32:13 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:14 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and who wants who wants to believe in a God who can be figured out, you know, like that's that's very small.
32:21 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a very small version.
32:23 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_04]: Very narcissistic, isn't it?
32:24 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
32:26 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So I realized we're running short on time here.
32:28 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I do apologize.
32:29 --> 32:32 [SPEAKER_01]: What is one thing that you would leave people with?
32:32 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: and also you know go out and get the book folks like it's amazing and again coming from somebody who is hosted a podcast on deconstruction for a decade now especially back then we didn't have any resources and now we're starting to slowly see some really great resources out there and so I cannot recommend your book and and and your work enough.
32:55 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: just from that perspective.
32:56 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But what's one thing that you would leave people with because a lot of my listeners, like I said at the top, are folks who came through this very thing who felt like they lost their entire life when they gave up even joke with Christianity or fundamentalist Christianity.
33:09 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you're not crazy and you're brave, you're incredibly brave.
33:13 --> 33:18 [SPEAKER_04]: And so my messages don't ever give up on you.
33:18 --> 33:20 [SPEAKER_04]: Don't ever quit, because if you don't quit, you win.
33:20 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I've told that to my kids their whole lives with 20 and 30 now, and you are a deep, are you are a beautiful, beautiful soul, and you are deeply loved.
33:29 --> 33:35 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's okay to question everything you've ever been taught to find out what you actually believe.
33:35 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a very individual process and everyone has a birthright to be connected to the divine, however that makes sense to them and no one should question it or damage that or dismantle that from you.
33:48 --> 33:49 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the perfect way to end this.
33:49 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness, yeah, that was great.
33:51 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much.
33:52 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, for the work that you're doing, it's so vital.
33:56 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I can't encourage people enough if you're out there listening and you're going to school and you want to become a therapist.
34:03 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is something that is greatly needed, you know.
34:06 --> 34:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I've worked together with the Nomad Podcast, the guys out of the UK.
34:11 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_01]: On their own, it came up with a network.
34:14 --> 34:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's on our website as well, of therapists and multiple different countries is growing, but therapists that specifically can help you with a spiritual trauma religious trauma.
34:23 --> 34:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we need more of that, we need more resources.
34:26 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you again for coming on.
34:29 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.
34:35 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I know that I'm alive Is God even here But does she care that I don't?
34:52 --> 34:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Does she care that I fear?
34:55 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Something tells me God will survive
35:06 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So take a breath, breathe it in The mystery that is this A universe, we don't know you
35:26 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, if God has a face, His face must look like yours Did God kill his kin?
35:53 --> 35:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
35:58 --> 36:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we made a God, it looks like us, does God, no my name?
36:14 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the aching my soul just confined to my brain, even so?
36:23 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that mean it's not real?
36:32 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that...
36:44 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, her face must look like this.
37:13 --> 37:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Your face like a teenager, and I'm at a milled red, a rock, and it's husband, God send their children, face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone, a Lucy born with an extra chromosome.
37:35 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Pablo with legs, he can't move by himself A girl born a Daniel, who now is then now A pillaging Eve, and white guy's name tag If you have a heartbeat, you are the fan
38:07 --> 38:30 [SPEAKER_02]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
38:33 --> 39:02 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face