🧭 Episode Summary
Who were you… before you were told who to be?
For many of us—especially those shaped by religious systems—identity isn’t something we discovered. It’s something we inherited.
Beliefs. Roles. Expectations.
All layered over time until the line between who we are and who we were told to be becomes hard to see.
In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, we sit down with Cristy S. Carr to explore the core ideas behind her book The Forgotten Self—and what it means to lose connection with ourselves in the pursuit of certainty, belonging, and faithfulness.
This episode is less about what we believe…
and more about who we’ve become in the process of believing.
📚 About the Guest
Cristy S. Carr is an author, theologian, and speaker whose work focuses on identity, spirituality, and the process of reconnecting with the self. Her book The Forgotten Self explores how we lose touch with who we are—and how we begin to find our way back.
Grab a copy of her new book: https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Self-Remember-Who-Truly/dp/B0G51WPJZN
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00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_00]: because our bodies has where it holds wisdom and what it gives us messages.
00:04 --> 00:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And in such a destructive system, we disconnect our mind from our bodies.
00:08 --> 00:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've intellectualized everything instead of feel.
00:12 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's learning to listen to your gut like for your listeners right now, all the things that we've been talking about, what is your body saying?
00:18 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, do you, is your jaw clenching?
00:21 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have tightness in your chest?
00:23 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have tightness in your neck and your shoulders?
00:25 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Is your gut?
00:26 --> 00:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a pet?
00:28 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel nauseous?
00:29 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_00]: This is your body speaking, and you need to begin to listen.
00:32 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Because your body has messages that will help you to trust yourself, to reconnect with yourself, because there's an innate wisdom in each soul.
00:41 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_00]: your intuition will guide your way, but you have to be able to connect to that, and that's what was severed, but there is a way that is a path back to that.
00:49 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Every single person has that.
00:51 --> 00:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's learning to listen little by little, by little, and be a mess.
00:56 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to have the right answers.
00:58 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Stay in curiosity.
01:06 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Deconstructionist podcast.
01:08 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, John Williamson, and there is a version of you that existed before the expectations before the labels before the quiet pressure to become who you were supposed to be.
01:19 --> 01:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And for a lot of us, especially those who grew up in religious environments, that version of ourselves can feel distant.
01:27 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_01]: buried under theology, buried under certainty, buried under the need to be right, or good, or faithful.
01:35 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But what if the journey of deconstruction isn't just about what we let go of?
01:40 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_01]: What if it's about what we recover?
01:43 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Today, we're joined by our guest, Christy S. Carr, author of The Forgotten Self.
01:49 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_01]: A book that invites us to look beneath the systems, the structures, and even the beliefs we've inherited.
01:55 --> 01:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And ask a deeper question.
01:57 --> 01:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Who am I?
01:58 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Underneath all of this.
02:01 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So in part one, we explore what it means to lose yourself in systems of belief, how identity gets shaped and sometimes distorted by religion and why connecting with yourself isn't selfish it might actually be necessary.
02:16 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And before we jump in, if you've been enjoying the show,
02:19 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a couple ways to support what we're building here.
02:22 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_01]: We are still an independent podcast after 10 years, self-funded and, you know, that's what we do.
02:31 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But we just released and launched a brand new Patreon.
02:35 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The old ones get a little dusty and a little neglected, and so decided to do a brand new launch, brand new Patreon, with brand new platform, what do they call them?
02:46 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And send of packages, I guess, all new exclusive content though.
02:51 --> 02:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Deep dive videos, which is something new that I've never done before and having a lot of fun doing.
02:57 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In bonus conversations, you won't hear anywhere else.
02:59 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find the link in the show notes.
03:01 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We've also updated our merch store.
03:04 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the classics and some new designs that were really excited about, uh, with world-wide shipping.
03:10 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Believe it or not.
03:11 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we are, we are with the times.
03:13 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you.
03:14 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So with that, having been said, let's get into it, pull up a chair.
03:18 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_01]: This is part one of our conversation with Dr. Christy Freakin Carr.
03:31 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, my guest today is Dr. Christi Carr, a trauma psychologist who specializes in spiritual peace and religious trauma.
03:38 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You've got a new book coming out.
03:40 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe next week, is that right?
03:42 --> 03:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It drops next Monday.
03:43 --> 03:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
03:43 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Holy cow.
03:44 --> 03:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So perfect timing.
03:46 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_01]: the forgotten self, remember who you truly are.
03:49 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I will have links in the show notes, of course, but before we get too deep into it, tell folks a little bit about yourself.
03:55 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say religious trauma is not typically the first thing people go into.
04:01 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So what, you know, after you get done giving us a little bit of your bio, how did you get into that field specifically?
04:06 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I am.
04:08 --> 04:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been, I would say, a student of the soul, most of my life.
04:11 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, my first class of psychology when I was a senior in high school, I just knew, I knew that's what I was going to do for the rest of my life.
04:20 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've been on this journey of learning about human behavior and brain and mind as fast and able to identify it.
04:28 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, um,
04:30 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get my master's degree until like oh nine.
04:35 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But I had worked in the field of psychology in one area or another since I was 22.
04:40 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And then so as I was doing work as a psychotherapist, I worked a lot with addiction and with people in low income.
04:50 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just love the, I love humanity.
04:53 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was learning that the skills
05:00 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It was not helping if people I was seeing.
05:02 --> 05:04 [SPEAKER_00]: This is back in the early 2000s.
05:05 --> 05:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So I kept on learning.
05:06 --> 05:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a lifelong student and I was like there's got to be something that I'm missing.
05:09 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_00]: That can help because I did kind of to be hit or therapy.
05:12 --> 05:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I was learning was people are affected deeply by trauma.
05:17 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't something that was really taught at that time.
05:20 --> 05:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully, this now.
05:21 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just went on my own journey of learning more and more about trauma and became a specialized trauma specialist back then.
05:28 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just came to you to learn.
05:30 --> 05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've been in that field for a very long time.
05:32 --> 05:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen the beauty of people that can go through unbearable and unimaginable things and heal from that.
05:39 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And I started my
05:41 --> 05:43 [SPEAKER_00]: in Michigan and California.
05:43 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I started a private practice and I started seeing clients that did not have like these major severe traumatic events in their life, but they had the same symbiology.
05:55 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was what is happening.
05:57 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I began to question, what am I seeing?
05:59 --> 06:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, what is going on here?
06:01 --> 06:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand.
06:02 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I realized was that they all had this one thing in common.
06:07 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_00]: They all had gone to some type of
06:10 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_00]: evangelical church system.
06:13 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was in my doctor at the time.
06:15 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was asking my chair and my professor, okay, can I?
06:18 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I need to study this, like she had no idea what I was talking about.
06:23 --> 06:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Most people don't in an academia.
06:25 --> 06:26 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't understand.
06:26 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like satanic.
06:28 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_00]: ritual abuse or something like that.
06:30 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, this is this is more of a system that teachings themselves, not just at a specific person or pastor or clergy that is harm someone, however that's there and that's true.
06:42 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_00]: This is more of a systemic thing that I was seen.
06:45 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she okay to me to do my dissertation on this and so that's kind of where I where I've come.
06:52 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's fascinating to me.
06:55 --> 07:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I mentioned it when we were corresponding before we had set up an interview date that I just released this last spring, a limited series podcast, separate from the deconstruction is called spoiled fruit, faith, and power about that very thing about a specific evangelical
07:10 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: expression that has done a lot of damage and, you know, and, you know, I don't want to go too deep into that, but we'll touch on some of that obviously throughout the episode, but yeah, there's definitely there's definitely a connection, I think, to the structures that they have or that that seems to be common throughout evangelical, Christiany, especially in the West, and the theology.
07:30 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are the two things I found in common.
07:32 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So, distinguish before we dive into that, distinguish between what you would call like normal church harm and abuse, because abuse obviously is people hear that and they're like, you know, but there's obviously varying degrees of abuse.
07:45 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, church harm or hurt, it could be maybe I would say someone like not giving you a chance to be involved in something maybe right that you're going to get in any type of community you're involved with there's going to be some form of clickishness going on that seems to happen right.
08:03 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But when we're talking about harm to your soul, harm to your spiritual being, the essence of actually who you are, it's in the evangelical system, they're actual tenants, cause deep psychological wounds, because you're taught that you are born inherently evil, and your heart is wicked, and you can't trust yourself, and you have to always look outside of yourself, outside confirmation, outside validation, outside everything.
08:32 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_00]: who you are.
08:33 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So these are now internal wounds to the soul.
08:37 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not someone outside of you because they don't like you or you're not involved and you are invited to something.
08:42 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about tenets and doctrines that tell you who God is and who what your relationship to the divine is and it's harmful.
08:52 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It's devastating.
08:53 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're you're you're definitely it's funny.
08:55 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also working on a side project that I'm not going to get into quite yet, but it has to do with a lot of this stuff and I came to the same conclusion.
09:03 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're you're definitely affirming things that I've I've thought for a long time.
09:07 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And so one of those things being, you know, if you look at some of the different theology, you know, that that comes out of even juggle Christianity, the starting point as you said is this idea of original sin, which isn't even with the earliest Christians believed and it's certainly not what all Christians believe, but
09:23 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: If you talk to an evangelical, they'll tell you that's what all Christians believe since the beginning of the time, which is, in my opinion, just bad history, but...
09:29 --> 09:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
09:30 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like they don't even know why they believe what they believe.
09:34 --> 09:38 [SPEAKER_00]: They think because an evangelicalism, you are not allowed to question authority.
09:38 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
09:39 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: It is a blind faith.
09:40 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You believe whatever your pastor says or your leader says, that is the truth, and you cannot question it.
09:46 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So you never, there's no critical thinking involved.
09:48 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is interesting.
09:50 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We had a, um, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Steve Hasson, he, he works a lot with, with cults.
09:56 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He himself was recruited into a cult, but I think back in the 1970s I want to say, 70s or 80s and found his way out and has now dedicated his life, got went all the way to his PhD to learn the psychology behind it.
10:09 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Now he's one of the foremost experts on
10:11 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Coltson out the operate and his first book that he came out with talks a lot about that very thing that you just mentioned this idea that and again, I hate throwing around the term cult so loosely, but there are a lot of parallels here, like in Coltson one of the things that he recognized one of the behaviors is you're not a lot of question authority and you're not allowed to read.
10:34 --> 10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: or consume literature outside of the approved kind of chain literature.
10:38 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, it's you can't ignore the fact that there are some similarities here.
10:43 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, within my research, so I did a qualitative study.
10:47 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So I interviewed people from all across the United States.
10:50 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Not one person knew each other.
10:52 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: They all went to different types of denominations, but all within the evangelical system.
10:58 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And they all said the same thing.
11:00 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_00]: it was alarming.
11:01 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It was actually alarming.
11:03 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that one of the ladies said was escaping, and that's how she worded it, escaping if that jell was, a evangelicalism was one of the hardest things she's ever done.
11:14 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what she said.
11:14 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: She escaped it because it is, there's religious indoctrination, like my themes from my study were religious indoctrination, cognitive dissonance, spiritual bypassing, emotional dissociation, and disenfranchised grief.
11:29 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_00]: that I found with each person that I interviewed and with this specific questions I had to ask them and this is a qualitative phenomenological study, very scientific and the one thing that was I think struck me so deeply was that they all said in one way or another that there is no humanity allowed in the evangelical system.
11:52 --> 11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: What did they mean by that specifically?
11:56 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're feelings, right?
11:58 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you don't get to have them, you can't be angry.
12:00 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't question anything.
12:02 --> 12:11 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't bring your full self or your humanity because you can't question.
12:11 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't disagree.
12:12 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't argue.
12:13 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't think for yourself.
12:15 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to just submit a lot of it was this submission.
12:19 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_00]: right, and there's a spiritual hierarchy.
12:22 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you don't do what is this is like a dysfunctional system, like just a dysfunctional family, you don't get to question or talk about what you think you just have to follow along.
12:33 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't, then you're ostracized.
12:35 --> 12:37 [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, then you are kicked out.
12:38 --> 12:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And once you're in the system from my research is saying that like you were saying with this call, you are, you can't have a lot of friends outside,
12:49 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_00]: in your church system.
12:50 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So much time volunteering.
12:52 --> 12:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So much time this is all you do.
12:54 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you move out of this, if you challenge the system and your fear is that I won't be accepted or I'll be called rebellious or I'll be called I was back sliding or you're going to say that you've been demonically oppressed or something like that, then you will lose everything that you've built depending on how long you've been in it.
13:13 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's been 10 to 20 years.
13:16 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have no friends outside of this system.
13:18 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So in that way, it is cultish for sure.
13:21 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things you mentioned too brought up some of the stories that I collected for the spoiled fruit podcast, multiple people that I spoke with mentioned.
13:30 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This idea that you basically just touched on where they said, you know, I brought some concerns, some valid concerns, and yes, because of the nature of what I was talking about, I was emotional.
13:40 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And they sort of viewed it as, well, you're gossiping.
13:44 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_01]: didn't allow her to open up her herself to the people that had sort of established them self says, where the people you come to when you need something, you know?
13:53 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But then she found that as soon as she did, she was labeled as trouble, or problematic, and eventually, like, I've never, so I grew up in the, you'll see a Lutheran church, and, you know, like, traditional stand-ups sit down, as they said, you know, organ music and all that stuff, but I'd never in my life heard of someone getting kicked out of a church before.
14:12 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: much less sending NDAs, which is a whole nother story.
14:15 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But I heard this, I thought, I've never heard such a thing.
14:19 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why would anyone ever kick someone out of a church?
14:22 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and yet here we have sort of this, this inability to deal with real life, you know, and real life concerns.
14:29 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I'm saying, like, no, you can't show up unless you have met certain guidelines, which is absurd.
14:36 --> 14:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't have any autonomy, right?
14:38 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no spiritual autonomy.
14:40 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to believe exactly.
14:41 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I went on the National Association of Evangelicals website and in my book, because they say as a researcher, you have to agree that this is how you all identify an Evangelical, so I said, okay, no problem.
14:53 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll put it right in my book and in my study.
14:55 --> 14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's in my research as well.
14:57 --> 15:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So they say exactly what, like, and they have a researcher and everyone that decided what an evangelical is and we agree on this and it if you're not in this system and it's and you read that it is shocking because if you don't have strongly agree with I think there's five different tenants that they bring up then you cannot call yourself an evangelical.
15:20 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder how closely those align with the fundamentalist tenets that were established, you know, decades back.
15:28 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I probably most of them, I've known.
15:30 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it sounds like because I believe they were like four or five, yeah.
15:34 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
15:35 --> 15:43 [SPEAKER_01]: that's fascinating to me and then they wonder why people aren't comfortable enough to to open up when they do have questions or doubts.
15:43 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's, well, you haven't fostered an environment that would allow for that.
15:46 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_00]: What you are, you can't doubt.
15:49 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_00]: If you doubt the messages will you need to pray harder, you need to read your Bible more, or you're being spiritually attacked by a demon because you're doubting it's
15:58 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you dial, there is an intense fear that's ingrained in someone, especially if you raise in the system that you're being spiritually oppressed, it's not your intuition and your deeper knowing.
16:11 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It is an oppression from the enemy.
16:13 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of this Christianity's talk, that's part of a religious indoctrination.
16:17 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you can't, you can't question that because you've been taught that you will end up losing your faith and going to help.
16:25 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_00]: a eternal conscious torment.
16:27 --> 16:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's no, it's psychological trap.
16:29 --> 16:31 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no choice, really.
16:31 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's interesting because we've gone from, especially if you've been born and raised in evangelical Christianity, my guess is that it's infinitely more difficult to come out of that, especially because, as you said, so many of the people who have emailed over the years and DMed, are folks who said, when I left, it wasn't just a matter of leaving a church, it was leaving an entire community behind, or the way that in which I identified myself before.
16:57 --> 16:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So you identify the original sin.
16:59 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So if we're born to believe that we are inherently just this awful piece of crap.
17:05 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And then that's through that, that's how we view everything else.
17:08 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you just threw it through and penal substitutionary tone of the theory as well, which is this idea that, in fact, you're such a piece of shit that God had to murder his son to forgive your sins.
17:21 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:22 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, and that's also generational.
17:25 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Sin as well.
17:27 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So not just you but like what the first human being did and so there's like layers here So what does that do to a person's psychological?
17:35 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Well if you think of so we'll we'll talk about what happens with neural neural development So there are three times in your life
17:43 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: when neural development becomes ingrained, perceptions become ingrained.
17:48 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That is the last three trimesters of your pregnancy, the first three years of life, and adolescents.
17:54 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So in these stages, you are being how you perceive the world yourself and others is being ingrained in you, meaning there's no choice.
18:02 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_00]: unless there is a drastic assault to that, if I can say it that way, or questioning to that, where you come up against that, those things will remain for the rest of your life, because that your choice, these are all subconscious beliefs, and they're just ingrained.
18:19 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So, an evangelical system, if you grew up in that system, these things are what you've been taught since you were born, or whatever, for you were in the system, right?
18:29 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I've worked with people,
18:30 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe came into this system and that those beliefs in their 20s is much easier to help someone heal still very difficult I need to mention.
18:40 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: They most harmful abuse I've ever dealt with as a trauma specialist is this.
18:44 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_00]: The absolute hardest thing I've ever had to help someone walk through and heal from.
18:50 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: There is healing for this and I want your listeners to know that, but it's difficult because it's so ingrained.
18:56 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And it connects to the deepest part of who are
18:59 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what's so devastating, but as a child, if you grew up in it, these systems, these ways of thinking are so ingrained.
19:09 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It's devastating for someone to continue to challenge them, question them, because they continue to hear these things, right?
19:20 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It's become their inner critic.
19:22 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Their inner voice is no longer themselves, it's these beliefs.
19:25 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So, probably a good place to transition into some of the new book here.
19:29 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So, explain it to listeners what you mean by forgotten self, because a lot of this does really come back to identity, how we view ourselves, and then an extension that is, you know, through these beliefs, this also paints a picture of how we view God as well.
19:44 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll start with Phylovex Alexandria in the first century, he believed that the soul is a fragment of the divine, right?
19:54 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a very breath of God is within us as an individual.
19:58 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that.
19:59 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that's what's wounded.
20:01 --> 20:06 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the forgotten self, because when you're in a system that tells you that part of who you are,
20:06 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: is evil, is unworthy, is untrustworthy, is deceitful, all of these things, to survive that type of messaging.
20:16 --> 20:21 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to fragment from yourself in order to survive, if that makes sense.
20:21 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot stay in that system and continue to be open to that, so you fragment.
20:26 --> 20:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Dissociation is a beautiful gift that's survival.
20:29 --> 20:33 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where nervous system has
20:33 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: and so we have to fragment.
20:34 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So when we fragment from something, that is the forgotten song.
20:38 --> 20:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you heal from this type of abuse, when you remember that you are actually a beautiful soul, deeply, deeply love, you can come back to who you truly are.
20:49 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can come back to what I don't know if you've heard of Dr. Lisa Miller.
20:53 --> 21:03 [SPEAKER_00]: She's done research at Columbia about spirituality is our innate birthright every single person is divine, is designed to have a connection with the divine.
21:04 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what spiritually suffers.
21:06 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you heal from this, you can come back to this forgotten self and realize that you are a beautiful soul deeply loved deeply worthy of love and that's the healing process.
21:17 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that you call my attention in mentioning just the the process of disassociating.
21:22 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have never considered that and oftentimes when you hear about disassociating, it's often connected to like sexual assault and really physical high trauma moments like that.
21:34 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But the mechanism being in place during moments of religious traumas is really interesting.
21:41 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_00]: You fragment yourself fragments, it has to in order to survive because if you believe you're wicked and evil in all of these things, you cannot stay connected to yourself.
21:50 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you're hearing this message over and over and over again, this is why I think there's so many people that have lived in this system eventually come like they have these what they're, you know, in the systems called moral failures, it's because you can't stay
22:05 --> 22:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Your body is actually trying to tell you like to look at yourself so you can heal and not stay separate, but in that system you are one part of yourself and you're not a whole self because you can't be again your humanity is not a cloud so only a portion of yourself is allowed to be present in these systems so what what are you going to do with the rest of who you are, which you can't bring there.
22:27 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've never thought about it that way.
22:30 --> 22:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to us about how, because obviously for a lot of these folks are coming to us adults, right?
22:34 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Like so later in life, and like you said, I myself, a stumble upon even juggle Christianity and college and then beyond that, and then formally left it some years ago.
22:45 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But for a lot of my friends, born and raised in it, and as we walk through our different looking deconstruction or whatever you want to call it,
22:56 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We hold our inherited beliefs in our hands and say, you know, are these things that we truly believe are these the things that all Christians have always believed and we start asking those types of questions.
23:06 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as adults, how, how does an evangelical type bringing up bringing you like this affect or show up in adult relationships, things like boundaries, sexuality, creativity, like how does that manifest?
23:20 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say that's very unique to every individual because this type of abuse, any abuse is very unique to the individual because we all have our own stories, right?
23:29 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're so afraid of who you are, then you can never actually
23:35 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
23:36 --> 23:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you're not connected to yourself.
23:37 --> 23:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're not, if you're not connected to you, you can't bring who you are to a relationship.
23:42 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So you will never feel loved because you're not bringing who you're true self there.
23:47 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Does if that makes sense.
23:48 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:49 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
23:49 --> 23:53 [SPEAKER_00]: You're only the depth of your ability to love someone else.
23:54 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It correlates to the depth of work you've done in yourself to connect and love yourself.
23:58 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I think Jesus said, what's the greatest commandment?
24:01 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Love God.
24:02 --> 24:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Love your neighbor, love yourself.
24:03 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It really is about love, but love that's unconditional.
24:07 --> 24:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Not a condition type of love.
24:09 --> 24:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what to call that, but it isn't love.
24:11 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the love God's has for us.
24:14 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the love Jesus.
24:15 --> 24:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about and it's not the love that will heal.
24:17 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But his love will.
24:18 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And your love to yourself when you actually do this work.
24:21 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_00]: to begin to connect back to yourself and it's called individuation, right?
24:25 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You collect the fragmented parts of yourself and your kind and compassionate and understanding.
24:32 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead of saying you're demonic and you're all of these things, right?
24:35 --> 24:38 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, look at them, that is wholeness.
24:38 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That is when you can truly love yourself and when you truly love yourself, you can actually truly love someone else.
24:44 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you accept them for who they are, they not to be like you.
24:47 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no more conformity for safety.
24:49 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Diversity is okay.
24:51 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're okay with you, diversity is fine.
24:53 --> 24:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You can be okay and hold that in someone else because you're out threatened by it.
24:58 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is fascinating because it also sort of ties into, I don't know how much in the way of like the stories that you heard, Adele with purity culture.
25:06 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's sort of the next logical arm that it branches off into.
25:10 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I didn't meant my participants mention that, but it wasn't a theme that I found in everyone, so it wasn't part of my research, however, that is significant through with people that have gone through this system and some of these churches because your sexuality now is suspect, you know, you can't have sex outside of marriage, don't do that.
25:32 --> 25:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can only, you know, the only approval relationship is a man and a woman.
25:37 --> 25:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're attraction in any other way, then you are demonic, you're sinful.
25:42 --> 25:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot this again, your humanity is not allowed.
25:45 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So devastating in a normal developmental structures of life, teenagers, let's say.
25:51 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Experimenting with sexuality figuring that out.
25:56 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That's normal.
25:56 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_00]: That's okay But if you aren't grew up in this and you didn't have any of those experiences I have I have a lot of women that are in their 30s and 40s never have had a sexual experience.
26:08 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know it Does
26:18 --> 26:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he has a body or even a name, if he does, does he know that I'm alive, is God's
26:40 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But she can't let it out, she can't let it feel Something else, let me call her We'll survive So take a breath, breathe in The mystery
27:10 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, His face must look like yours.
27:37 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Did God kill his kid?
27:43 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
27:49 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we
28:05 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so does that mean it's not real?
28:22 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_03]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that is there.
28:35 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, her face must look like you.
29:03 --> 29:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Your face like a teenager, and I'm at a meal dreaded A rock sent his husband, got sent their children Vays like a Kim, a TED or Tyrone A Lucy born with an extra cross on
29:25 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Pablo with legs, he can't move by himself A girl born a Daniel, who now is then now A pillaging Eve, and white guy's name tag If you have a heartbeat, you are the first
29:54 --> 30:20 [SPEAKER_03]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
30:23 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face