Guest Info/Bio:
This week we bring you a Christmas treat! This is a re-release of one of our absolute favorite guests in one of our absolute favorite interviews! This is a special Christmas episode we recorded with our dear friend Alexander Shaia back in 2017.
Dr. Alexander Shaia is an international speaker, author, and teacher. He studied cultural anthropology at Notre Dame University, and also has a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Alexander is the author of the revolutionary book, “Heart and Mind: The Four-Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation” which is now available in its 2nd Edition. Grab a copy on Amazon now! (Selected) Guest Publications: Heart and Mind: The Four-Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation Guest Website/Social
Media: www.quadratos.com
Facebook: @walkwithheartandmind
Special guest music on this episode provided by:
Nicholas Rowe
https://nicholasrowe.bandcamp.com www.nicholasrowemusic.com
Twitter: @_NicholasRowe_
Facebook: @nicholasrowemusic
Instagram: @_nicholasrowe_
AND
Clay Kirchenbauer
https://claykmusic.bandcamp.com
Twitter: @ clay_k
Facebook: @ClayKmusic
Instagram: @theclay_k
Enjoy the songs? Songs featured on this episode were: “It’s Christmastime Again, It Feels Like Christmas, & Silent Night” from the E.P. “It’s Christmastime Again” by Nicholas Rowe & Friends AND the “Telling the Story” single by Clay Kirchenbauer available everywhere music is sold! Nick and Clay’s music is available on iTunes, Spotify, BandCamp, etc. Pick up their music anywhere good music is sold!
The Deconstructionist’s Podcast is mixed and edited by John Williamson
Check us out at our website www.thedeconstructionists.org to join, listen to all of our episodes, subscribe to make sure you never miss a new episode, connect with us on social media, read our blog, or get your hands on one of our many cool t-shirts or pint glasses.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:08 Music.
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 Welcome to the Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host, John Williamson,
00:00:13 --> 00:00:17 and I'm here with a special Christmas bonus episode.
00:00:17 --> 00:00:21 This is a re-release, so for those of you who heard it a long time ago when
00:00:21 --> 00:00:26 it was first released back in 2017, then this will be a refresher for you, but I think a needed one.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:31 For those of you who have never heard this episode and or have never heard Dr.
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 Alexander Shia, then this will be a treat for you.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:39 Dr. Shia is a dear friend of the podcast and has always been just an incredible guest.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:44 He always brings just such wisdom and beauty to the podcast.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 And this was a special one for us. He came on back in 2017. I think we released
00:00:48 --> 00:00:54 this one December 20th, so a few days before Christmas, and just absolute favorite of ours.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:58 And so you'll hear Adam on here. This is, again, this is a re-release from back in the day.
00:00:58 --> 00:01:04 And so enjoy that. But Dr. Shia, if you're not familiar, his seminal work is
00:01:04 --> 00:01:08 a book called Heart and Mind, The Four Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:15 You can check that out at his website, quadratos.com, Q-U-A-D-R-A-T-O-S.com.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:20 You can also find it on Facebook as well. But it's a brilliant book,
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 really dives into The Four Gospels, perhaps why there are four,
00:01:23 --> 00:01:26 and what each gospel sort of represents.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:31 And then he's also a regular tour guide on the Camino, the pilgrimage trail
00:01:31 --> 00:01:36 in Spain, and has released a book on that as well. that we've talked about on
00:01:36 --> 00:01:36 the podcast previously.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 So check it out. All that will be in the show notes. So again.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:43 Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:48 We'll be back with part two of our most recent episode here in a couple of days.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:53 So you get two episodes in one week, but Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 whatever that looks like to you and yours. I know it's not always an easy holiday
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 for everyone and Christmas and family means very different things to very different people.
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 And so my love goes out to you guys. thank
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 you so much for as always for listening to the podcast you have no idea what
00:02:07 --> 00:02:11 it means to me to be able to continue to do this podcast year after year and
00:02:11 --> 00:02:15 so thank you and without further ado i'm gonna let adam take it away here's
00:02:15 --> 00:02:22 adam sweet sweet uncle shia without further ado merry christmas with alexander freaking shia.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:44 Music.
00:02:43 --> 00:02:47 Well, Alexander, Shia, it is a delight.
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 It's like having family back on the podcast because I really feel like that's
00:02:51 --> 00:02:55 what you've become to John and I. So thank you so much. Welcome back to the States.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:59 We're glad you're healthy. Welcome back, I think, for the fourth time?
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 Yeah, the reigning champion. The reigning champion on times on the Deconstructionist
00:03:03 --> 00:03:07 podcast. We just cannot wait for this conversation. Thanks for being with us again.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:11 Well, I feel like I'm home, and it's great to be with you guys.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:18 Thank you. And coming home from the Camino, I totally feel deconstructed.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 We are so jealous. There's a challenge here. I mean, we've got two challenges,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 and we need to say it right up front.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:32 This is an adults-only podcast, or this is not a family-friendly podcast,
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 whichever way you want to say that.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 Not your father's Christmas podcast.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:44 And secondly, coming home from the Camino, I don't have a thought in my head.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:48 And this is actually the very first thing that I've done since getting back.
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 And so let's see what happens.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 Well, we're honored and I'm sure you'll be just fine.
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 We can't wait to see what we are about to dig into now.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:02 But just so all of our listeners know, Alexander was definitely being serious.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 This is going to be, we are going to get into some explicit more content and
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 make sure children are not within earshot.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:13 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the reason that you're back.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:16 Well, honestly, you could come on for any reason, obviously.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:21 We have an open door policy with certain guests, and Alexander's definitely one of those.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:26 But we specifically wanted to pick your brain about the topic of Christmas.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:30 Now, this episode will be released the week leading into Christmas.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 Yes. This is our Christmas present for our listeners.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 And so... Jingle bells, John. I thought we were going to do a little jingle
00:04:37 --> 00:04:41 bells. Oh, that's the magic of editing. I'm going to put that in later. Good. Thank goodness.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:45 So with... It's like I'm restraining myself right now. We'll wait to the very
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 end to say a certain greedy.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:53 Perfect. Okay, okay. So let's start off with Christmas, like a lot of other
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 Christian traditions, is something that's evolved and developed over time.
00:04:56 --> 00:05:01 And obviously, historically, it seems to be something of an amalgamation of
00:05:01 --> 00:05:08 an attempt by the early Christian church to convert over pagans, reverence for St.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 Nicholas and absorption of some Nordic traditions.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:15 So I don't know if that's a good place to start, but maybe we could start with
00:05:15 --> 00:05:21 how would the early Christians have viewed Christmas and how did that celebration start?
00:05:21 --> 00:05:28 Oh, wow. We're just doing one podcast. For now. You never know. Yeah.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 The interior files are going just nuts right now. I love it.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 I'm going to dive into this, but I really want to depend on you to sort of lead
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 me through if I start going down straight paths.
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 Sure. We like your straight paths all the time.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:50 So let's start with the fact that the
00:05:50 --> 00:05:56 Feast of Christmas doesn't come into Christianity until about 400 years.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:02 Now, I'm going to ask the indulgence and the patience of people who know a lot
00:06:02 --> 00:06:06 of information, because I want to speak in some generalities.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:11 I'm not going to be trying to nail the exact date that Christmas came into Christianity.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:15 Let's say roughly the year 400.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 So already that says that Christianity has moved forward in rapid expansion
00:06:21 --> 00:06:26 for 300 years without Christmas, without the Feast of Christmas.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:34 We know that spiritually the core feast is what we talked about on our last podcast.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:43 Resurrection is Sunday and Easter. That's the ground zero feast of Christianity.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 However, right behind that comes Christmas.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:55 And it has everything to do with pagans in the most beautiful way possible.
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 And I love the word pagan. It simply means earth.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:02 And Christmas is an earth feast.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:08 One of the things that theologians today are talking about is that in Christianity,
00:07:08 --> 00:07:12 we talk about God incarnating twice.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:17 God incarnates because God puts God's self in the cosmos.
00:07:17 --> 00:07:19 That's the first incarnation.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 The second incarnation is Jesus the Christ.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 And those two incarnations, because they're both incarnations of God,
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 must essentially agree with each other.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 They are both coming from the same place.
00:07:37 --> 00:07:44 So the Feast of Christmas is coming out of the first incarnation,
00:07:44 --> 00:07:51 the earth, and it's telling us the story of the second incarnation, Jesus the Christ.
00:07:51 --> 00:08:00 And those two incarnations are absolutely intertwined. And the core experience
00:08:00 --> 00:08:04 of the two is the darkness of winter.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:10 Because, and I'm actually going to just sort of give away the theme song here,
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 Christmas is about a spiritual practice.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:19 And the spiritual practice is something that each one of us is called to do
00:08:19 --> 00:08:27 at a moment in the calendar year as a way to get us up to speed for that same
00:08:27 --> 00:08:33 moment that's going to happen in our interior lives that might be July or April or maybe December.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:41 And that outer moment of darkness is teaching us the spiritual practices for
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43 our inner moments of darkness.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:49 And the great truth of Christianity, and it's matched by most world religions,
00:08:50 --> 00:08:58 is if you want to find fresh radiance, you go to the deepest dark in yourself.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 Just as in the first
00:09:01 --> 00:09:05 incarnation the fresh radiance on
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 earth is born at the
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 time of the deepest dark and for
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 those of us in the northern hemisphere that's the
00:09:14 --> 00:09:17 winter solstice of December for those of
00:09:17 --> 00:09:22 us in the southern hemisphere that's the winter solstice of June so Christmas
00:09:22 --> 00:09:34 is a teaching and an aid and enlivening support for the most critical of all spiritual practices,
00:09:35 --> 00:09:41 which is to know that it's only by our courage and grace to go into the deepest darkness,
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44 which is where the fresh radiance is born.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:51 So there we have it. There we have, we don't know what day on the calendar Jesus
00:09:51 --> 00:09:57 was born, And almost nothing in the Christian calendar is based in history.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:03 It's based in spiritual practice, which is far more efficient and effective
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 and grace-filled than history.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 Now, talk a little bit about that, Alexander, because we live in a period of
00:10:10 --> 00:10:16 time where we're still haunted by modernity and enlightenment and reason and doctrine.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 And it wasn't so necessarily when all of this was getting started.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 So what was, when you talk about the Christian calendar being rooted more in
00:10:24 --> 00:10:28 spiritual practices rather than history, I think maybe some ears are going to
00:10:28 --> 00:10:30 perk up and some people are going to find that really interesting.
00:10:31 --> 00:10:32 Will you talk just a little bit
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 more about why that is and what the difference between then and now is?
00:10:36 --> 00:10:41 Let's go back to, we've got the two incarnations. We've got God putting God's
00:10:41 --> 00:10:45 self in the cosmos, or actually that the cosmos is born of God's self,
00:10:45 --> 00:10:47 and we have Jesus the Christ.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:55 The cosmos, for us in the Northern Hemisphere, gives us an embodied incarnational experience,
00:10:55 --> 00:11:02 of new radiance in the darkness when the winter solstice and the days surrounding
00:11:02 --> 00:11:04 the winter solstice in December.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 The two incarnations must agree with each other,
00:11:09 --> 00:11:15 and they amplify and magnify each other so that the birth of Jesus the Christ
00:11:15 --> 00:11:21 is not a theological concept, but it's an embodied physical experience.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:28 And we can go back and we can thank the Celts in large measure for much of the
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 Christian tradition around Christmas.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:32 This is so good already.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:36 Say that again, what you were talking about with the embodiment.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:40 It's not a doctrinal statement. Will you just say that again?
00:11:41 --> 00:11:50 I want to hear that again. We've got two incarnations, and they both tell us the great story of God.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:55 We have the incarnation of the cosmos, and we have the incarnation of Jesus
00:11:55 --> 00:11:57 the Christ, and they amplify each other.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:08 And so we know in our spiritual practice that the place of new radiance is found in the deepest dark.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:12 We know that on our own personal spiritual journeys.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:17 We're learning that in our corporate and collective and community journeys.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:23 But this is the great story that the cosmos proclaims at the winter solstice.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:30 The winter solstice is the time that the deepest dark has reached its greatest
00:12:30 --> 00:12:34 depth, and it's precisely at that moment that the reversal happens,
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 that the new radiance begins.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:44 And so it's more than appropriate, it's perfect that Christmas is the winter
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 solstice in Christianity.
00:12:46 --> 00:12:53 Because Christmas brings together the two incarnations and tells the great story
00:12:53 --> 00:12:58 not as a mental concept, not as a historical concept,
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 but as an embodied physical experience.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 And here's and I get so let's,
00:13:08 --> 00:13:11 discuss why and how Christmas and
00:13:11 --> 00:13:18 the winter solstice are now three days apart so if we go back in time to the
00:13:18 --> 00:13:24 time of Jesus and the first centuries of Christianity the western world was
00:13:24 --> 00:13:30 following the Julian calendar created by Julius Caesar in the year 45 BC,
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 In that calendar, December the 25th was the winter solstice.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:44 So Christianity discerned what day of the year should we celebrate the birth
00:13:44 --> 00:13:47 of Christ coming forth out of darkness?
00:13:47 --> 00:13:52 Well, we should celebrate it on the day that the cosmos tells the same story. Wow.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:59 All right. So, for a thousand years, December the 25th was both the winter solstice
00:13:59 --> 00:14:00 and the feast of Christmas.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:10 Then, in the 16th century, Pope Gregory XIII created a new calendar called the
00:14:10 --> 00:14:15 Gregorian calendar, which is the calendar that we live with in the Western world today.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:24 Now, the need for that calendar was because the Julian calendar was 362 days a year, not 365,
00:14:25 --> 00:14:30 and the Julian calendar did not take in account leap days.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:35 So by the time we get into the 16th century,
00:14:35 --> 00:14:42 the seasons are all wacky from the Christian calendar, and the Christian calendar
00:14:42 --> 00:14:50 was created because the season had the physical incarnational experience of the feast.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:57 Wow. So by the 1600s, Christmas is now in the springtime.
00:14:59 --> 00:15:04 And so the Roman Church, and I like to give the Roman Church credit when it
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 does an occasional thing right,
00:15:06 --> 00:15:15 created a new calendar that was now going to be 365 days, no longer 362 days.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 So that means every day on the calendar was going to, I mean,
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22 we're slipping three days in.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:28 So, and then we had to rectify also for leap year. So every fourth year, we added a day.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:35 All right. The winter solstice now became December the 21st, December the 22nd.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:41 Now, no longer the traditional feast of the solstice and the traditional feast of Christmas.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:45 And everybody is going nuts. Like, what do we do? What do we do?
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 Do we move Christmas now to the new date of the winter solstice?
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 Or do we leave it on the traditional day of the 25th?
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 How do we resolve this dilemma and really almost a crisis of faith? Wow.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 Dusty tones and arguments written about what to do.
00:16:03 --> 00:16:09 And then we went back to the earth. And we said, okay, what's going on here?
00:16:10 --> 00:16:15 Well, at the solstice, whether it's the winter solstice or the summer solstice,
00:16:15 --> 00:16:22 the word solstice literally means sun stand still, right?
00:16:22 --> 00:16:31 And for three days, the sun neither grows nor diminishes at the solstice.
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 So for three days at the winter solstice, you can't see the sun increasing.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:40 And for three days at the summer solstice, you can't see the sun decreasing.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:47 All right, now, the winter solstice, the whole feast of Christmas is about the
00:16:47 --> 00:16:55 rebirth or the fresh-growing radiance that comes out of the darkness that Jesus
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 the Christ leads us through over and over again in our life.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:04 And what the church elders finally realized was, aha,
00:17:05 --> 00:17:13 Christmas now is even more perfect staying on the 25th because three days after
00:17:13 --> 00:17:18 the night of the solstice will be Christmas morning.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:25 And on Christmas morning, the Celts can see the lengthening shadows on the standing
00:17:25 --> 00:17:31 stones and the naked eye now has an experience of light's growth again.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:55 Music.
00:17:54 --> 00:18:00 So Christmas almost becomes another like Easter.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:07 In a way. I mean, certainly the theologians went on and on about Jesus is in
00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 the tomb three days and rises. Right.
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 So Christmas morning is another resurrection. Yeah.
00:18:14 --> 00:18:21 Isn't that cool? Oh, it's so cool. Wow. And it drives me to weep that we have
00:18:21 --> 00:18:27 people out there saying that a celebration of the winter solstice is anti-Christian.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:33 Nothing could be further from the truth. The winter solstice is the incarnation
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 of God in the cosmos that tells the same story to us as Jesus the Christ.
00:18:38 --> 00:18:46 You know, Alexander, I'm thinking a lot about John's gospel right now while
00:18:46 --> 00:18:52 you're saying this stuff, because I know in that prologue, he's trying to do some of those things.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:57 Well, yes. Well, yes, and to me, that's why John's prologue,
00:18:57 --> 00:19:02 as well as the whole gospel, is the deepest expression of our spirituality.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:06 So let's go there. Let's, let's, let's, cause that, you know,
00:19:07 --> 00:19:10 the four gospels, the four paths, that's, that's kind of your, your thing.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:15 The quadratus Christmas. Yes. So like looking at the gospels,
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 obviously Mark doesn't really talk a whole lot about it.
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 He kind of skips and goes right to Jesus, his adult baptism.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:27 So, so where do we look when we want to look at the, the, the birth story? Where, where do we go?
00:19:28 --> 00:19:32 All right. Let me go. And again, I'm going to give me kudos to my tradition again tonight. Wow.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:40 The second time in 20 minutes. All right.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:48 The early Christians told the story of Christmas starting at sundown on the
00:19:48 --> 00:19:52 24th through mid-morning of the 25th.
00:19:52 --> 00:20:01 And they used four gospel narratives to tell the story as it matched and amplified
00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 what's going on in the earth and the sky at that hour.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:12 So the first gospel of Christmas, remember again that the church,
00:20:12 --> 00:20:17 the ancient church, and some churches today have restored, that the church day
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 begins at sundown or just after sundown.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:24 Right. Again, reminding us of
00:20:24 --> 00:20:28 the spiritual truth that when you go into darkness, that's the beginning.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 When you go into darkness, it's the beginning.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:34 Go into darkness, it's the beginning. So...
00:20:35 --> 00:20:43 At sunset, or just after, on the 24th, the early Christians would read the genealogy
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 from the text of Matthew.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:54 Oh my gosh. There are a number of reasons this is not the Family Hour podcast.
00:20:55 --> 00:21:02 I love it. And Matthew's genealogy has got all this gutsy stuff to it about
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 people who found themselves in a time of great darkness.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:14 Like Tamar, who's mentioned in the genealogy, Tamar, who's Judah's daughter-in-law,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 and her husband has been killed.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:24 And she pleads with Judah to marry his third son to her so he can stay in the line.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 And Judah says yes, but he doesn't bring his third son to her.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:35 And so Tamar takes matters before God and sort of into her own hands, so to speak.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:40 And she dresses as a vestal virgin, and she stands outside the temple.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 This is 4 years ago, folks.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:49 But she stands outside the temple praying that Judah, on his way to the temple,
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 will choose to lie with her,
00:21:52 --> 00:21:58 which, you know, have sex with her, which is a form of prayer in those days.
00:21:58 --> 00:22:04 And she's disguised, and Judah does choose her, but doesn't recognize her.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:09 But before the deed is done, she asks for Judah's ring.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 And Judah gives the ring to her. The deed is done.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 And three months later, the text says, tomorrow begins to show.
00:22:19 --> 00:22:25 And she knows what's coming now. Judah pronounces upon her the death sentence
00:22:25 --> 00:22:29 because it is his right 4 years ago.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:36 He owns a woman's body. He owns the woman's body of any women in his family.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:42 And she had brought displeasure and dishonor on the family name because she's
00:22:42 --> 00:22:43 gotten pregnant without his permission.
00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 And so Tamar only asks to meet with Judah before she's killed.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:59 And Judah agrees, and Tamar produces the ring, and thereby she remains part of the line of Abraham.
00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 Man. So we've got all of these very—I mean,
00:23:04 --> 00:23:10 you think that the genealogy is the most boring verses of the entire Gospels,
00:23:10 --> 00:23:18 and what's embedded in that genealogy are headlines like grocery store tabloids.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:27 And each one is just ringing in the ears of the original hearers about a dark
00:23:27 --> 00:23:31 time that that person couldn't see their way out of.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:40 And God, because they remained basically faithful, God brought them through.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:50 So, this is the first gospel of Christmas, proclaimed just as the sun goes down on December the 24th,
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 because it's proclaiming the truth that we must hold on to when the sun goes
00:23:55 --> 00:24:00 down in our lives, not in our outer lives so much, but in our inner lives.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 This is your story.
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 The genealogy is your staff.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 God's incarnation is not for
00:24:09 --> 00:24:13 people who believe they are perfect God's incarnation
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 are for those who have been humble and broken
00:24:16 --> 00:24:24 and weeping and experienced the darkness yeah so then we move to the second
00:24:24 --> 00:24:29 gospel of Christmas the Roman Catholic Church still does this the Roman Catholic
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 Church still has this four texts of.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 The four gospel texts of Christmas. The Presbyterian traditions,
00:24:39 --> 00:24:45 the Revised Common Lectionary, sadly, in my view, have reduced it down to two.
00:24:45 --> 00:24:52 But, okay, so we go now into the nighttime, and the Roman Catholic rules about
00:24:52 --> 00:24:58 this are, you must read the second gospel of Christmas once night has fully set in.
00:24:58 --> 00:25:02 And so, usually this gospel is seven to nine o'clock in the evening.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:12 And this gospel is from Luke, and it's the gospel of the angel coming to the
00:25:12 --> 00:25:17 shepherds in the fields, proclaiming a birth in Bethlehem.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:26 Now, we are in the dead of night, and this is not about just the cold dead of night of December.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:34 This is about the cold dead night in you. And I hear about this type of night a lot today.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:40 I hear people in despair about the world and about their lives and about the
00:25:40 --> 00:25:45 direction that we seem to be moving, the brokenness and the fracturing.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:53 And that's what this gospel, that's the situation, the soil that this gospel
00:25:53 --> 00:25:54 is intended to be proclaimed upon.
00:25:55 --> 00:26:02 But we do it in Christmas night, in the dead of night, to remind us of the truth
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 of when it happens in our lives.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:10 And so the angel comes to the shepherd, and we have to remember,
00:26:10 --> 00:26:15 we have to set aside for a moment those beautiful stained glass windows and
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 picture books of shepherds,
00:26:17 --> 00:26:23 all nice with lambs cuddled in their arms, sweet things,
00:26:23 --> 00:26:27 courageous, strong, integrity types.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 Not these shepherds not first
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 century not this story
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 these shepherds are people
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 who are ravenous they
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 have been reduced and shunned and
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 shamed so that they must do the work
00:26:47 --> 00:26:54 that no one else will do which is to be in the field with the sheep and to smell
00:26:54 --> 00:27:00 like the sheep because they They have done something so offensive to civil society
00:27:00 --> 00:27:06 that they must wear the aroma of the sheep like a bell around their neck.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:10 It's better than a bell around their neck because people will know a block away.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:16 A shepherd is here. Run. Run the other way.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:20 Hide. Protect yourself. Do not speak to this one.
00:27:21 --> 00:27:28 This one has been cut off from us because they have so offended our code of ethics.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 They're like the prodigal sons of the day. They are.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:36 And yet, in Luke's text, this is where the angel comes.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:43 And what's beautiful is, let's not talk about that outer person.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 Let's talk about that inner person.
00:27:46 --> 00:27:52 Let's talk about right now in the deep dark, in the interior life,
00:27:52 --> 00:27:57 in our emotions, in our thoughts, that part of us that's in utter despair,
00:27:58 --> 00:28:04 that part of us that has no hope, that part of us who is so afraid about today and tomorrow.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:16 This angel is coming to that aspect of us and proclaiming that precisely because we are in this place,
00:28:17 --> 00:28:25 the promise that new radiance is born and let us sing a magnificent glory.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:29 Now, we move to the third gospel of Christmas.
00:28:30 --> 00:28:36 Third Gospel of Christmas is proclaimed at dawn of Christmas morning.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:41 And the Gospel, Luke's Gospel, of the angel with the shepherd.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:47 The angel who announces and the host that sings to the shepherds.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:52 The text stops right at the proclamation. But at dawn,
00:28:53 --> 00:29:04 we pick the text up, and now we hear that the shepherds go to Bethlehem and see the births.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:14 Just as we are on our way to church at dawn, we see that sunrise on third morning after the solstice.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:24 So now, the third gospel of Christmas is no longer about walking with faith
00:29:24 --> 00:29:26 that the promise will be fulfilled.
00:29:26 --> 00:29:29 Now at third dawn we
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 see we experience in our bodies
00:29:33 --> 00:29:41 faith is no longer a matter of mental exercise faith is now a known experience
00:29:41 --> 00:29:51 it is birth is darkness has reached its zenith and is now past,
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 and now is the time of the new light.
00:29:55 --> 00:30:00 So then we move on. That's not the final gospel of Christmas.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:07 The final gospel of Christmas Day in this cycle is the prologue of John,
00:30:07 --> 00:30:11 which is to be proclaimed in the full light of Christmas morning. Man.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:18 And John's text is, remember the two incarnations.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:26 Remember that the power and the beauty of Jesus the Christ is the reality that
00:30:26 --> 00:30:31 Jesus the Christ magnifies in that same incarnation of the cosmos.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:39 That the two incarnations, we celebrate their fresh radiance on Christmas morning.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:59 Music.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 It's amazing. It's amazing to me when I, when I hear you talk about specifically
00:31:03 --> 00:31:10 John's gospel, you know, especially, you know, Western Protestant Christianity
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 is so doctrinaire, you know, it's so, it's so straight cerebral.
00:31:14 --> 00:31:21 And we forget that the poetry of John's prologue,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:27 calling us to, to remember the birth of reality as we know it,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:32 you know, hearkening back to, Genesis and then manifesting, you know,
00:31:32 --> 00:31:38 ultimate reality in Jesus the Christ as being this like, man, this is so deep.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:45 This is so big. This isn't about just religion or doctrine or anything else. It's huge.
00:31:46 --> 00:31:57 And it's the magnificent truth that's in human smallness and in the grain for the cosmos,
00:31:57 --> 00:32:04 that God is born within all of us, not just us humans.
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 God is born within all of us.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:13 Therefore, Christmas becomes the feast of the family of the cosmos.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:19 Christmas is the feast by which we know that we are brother and sister to animal
00:32:19 --> 00:32:24 and sand and soil and stardust and cosmos.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:28 Yes. We all are made of the same substance.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:33 So one of the things that I love in your work is your ability to...
00:32:34 --> 00:32:40 To talk about the differences between the Gospels and make sense of it.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:44 So one of the things that I've always thought was fascinating about the different
00:32:44 --> 00:32:49 accounts of the birth story within the Gospels is just the fact that obviously,
00:32:49 --> 00:32:53 as we've talked about in previous episodes with you when talking about the four gospel journey,
00:32:54 --> 00:32:59 is the fact that each writer, each author is talking to a different audience
00:32:59 --> 00:33:01 of what that would have meant to that specific audience.
00:33:01 --> 00:33:08 And specifically, I just love the way that the gospel of Luke kind of approaches
00:33:08 --> 00:33:14 this birth story where it really shows that Jesus is the Savior for all people, Gentiles and Jews,
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 and really makes a point to focus on this very lowly birth.
00:33:18 --> 00:33:25 Like this coming Messiah is one for all people, regardless of your station.
00:33:25 --> 00:33:30 So I wondered if you could kind of talk about why it's important to understand
00:33:30 --> 00:33:33 the audience that these Gospels were writing to.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:39 I was having this conversation with a friend today, and this friend was asking
00:33:39 --> 00:33:44 me to tell me about a translation in John.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:53 And the thing is, is that I never want to start with what Jesus said.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:56 I want to start with why Jesus was saying it.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:03 And I wish, I mean, my work of Quadratus and the four gospel journey and the
00:34:03 --> 00:34:06 book Heart and Mind, the four gospel journey for radical transformation.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:14 Information, this book is about teaching us that we can have a credible way
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 to understand why Jesus was saying these things.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 And once you understand the context of why Jesus is saying it,
00:34:23 --> 00:34:27 it's not just a matter about what the text says, because what the text says
00:34:27 --> 00:34:28 is just like an anthology.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 It's just a whole bunch of wonderful wisdom, but how do I apply it? Mm-hmm.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:41 So Luke's text is written at a moment when the Jewish and Christian communities
00:34:41 --> 00:34:45 are in a horrible divorce with each other. This is the mid-80s of the first century.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:51 And we've broken apart from each other, and there's pain on both sides of this
00:34:51 --> 00:34:55 awful moment. There's nothing worse than the fight in the family.
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 And the gospel author
00:34:59 --> 00:35:06 is inspired to tell the story of Jesus to the Christian community about how
00:35:06 --> 00:35:11 to move through this moment so that they do not become resentful and bitter
00:35:11 --> 00:35:17 about their removal from the synagogue and their removal from Jewish life.
00:35:18 --> 00:35:22 But there's a second impact here. And the second impact is, is that because
00:35:22 --> 00:35:26 of what we as Christians are coming to understand about the message of Jesus.
00:35:26 --> 00:35:29 We are now choosing to live our lives differently.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:34 We're choosing to live our lives in a way that we say to everybody,
00:35:34 --> 00:35:38 your brother and sister, no matter what bloodline you're from,
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40 doesn't matter who your mama was,
00:35:41 --> 00:35:45 doesn't matter where you were born on the planet, doesn't matter if you're free
00:35:45 --> 00:35:50 or slave, doesn't matter if you're male or female, in this understanding of
00:35:50 --> 00:35:54 God, we are equal brothers and sisters.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:59 Yes, we have different work, but we're of equal worth and respect.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:04 And because we choose to live this way,
00:36:04 --> 00:36:08 the emperor wants to condemn us,
00:36:08 --> 00:36:13 wants to make us criminals, In fact, it does make us criminals because living
00:36:13 --> 00:36:18 this way is an anathema to the Roman rule of law,
00:36:19 --> 00:36:23 which is built on power and vitality, privilege,
00:36:24 --> 00:36:31 where a man owns women, where a person of wealth has a right to treat a person
00:36:31 --> 00:36:36 without wealth in any way that that person wants to, including having them killed.
00:36:37 --> 00:36:40 They're property. They're not human beings.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 And we're also developing an ethos that we take care of each other,
00:36:47 --> 00:36:52 that our goods are held for the good of all, not just for our own good.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:58 All of these values are not values that the emperor wants to get started in his empire.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:05 Because he knows that such values, such actions would undermine his authority. Yeah.
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 So he makes us criminals and he begins to execute us.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:16 So in this moment that we are bearing the wound of the bitter fight in the family
00:37:16 --> 00:37:20 and now must stand as criminals before the emperor,
00:37:21 --> 00:37:30 Luke gives us this text, his gospel, which is very much a text of nonviolent resistance.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:36 It's very much a text of, we are going to hold to spiritual practice regardless
00:37:36 --> 00:37:39 of the consequences that come back on us.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:43 Regardless of the fact that we're not going to get the good schools or we probably
00:37:43 --> 00:37:45 aren't going to have the best health care.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:53 And we know that only by our holding to spiritual practice will God ultimately
00:37:53 --> 00:37:57 raise up new value in our culture.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 Christians did this for 225 years.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:06 225 years before the emperor was no more.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:14 So now, when we look back at the opening of Luke's text, and we have Luke give
00:38:14 --> 00:38:19 us the historical days of Jesus' birth, it's Luke that gives us that.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:24 It's Luke that names the census of Caesar Augustus.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:29 Well, I know and
00:38:29 --> 00:38:35 I hope that the family here is out of earshot because we're all going to go
00:38:35 --> 00:38:40 to these incredibly beautiful Christmas pageants at school and church and we're
00:38:40 --> 00:38:46 going to hear about this decree of Caesar Augustus to go back to your hometown and be counted.
00:38:46 --> 00:38:54 My hope is that when we hear the name Caesar Augustus, we'll know that Caesar
00:38:54 --> 00:38:58 Augustus is right there in line with Adolf Hitler.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:07 Caesar Augustus is one of the world's most horrific authoritarian bullies.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:12 He brutalized an empire for his own wealth and power.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:19 He kept a people an inch away from starvation, so they couldn't have the strength
00:39:19 --> 00:39:22 to raise their arms against his army.
00:39:22 --> 00:39:26 There is no such thing as the hundred years of the peace of Augustus.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:33 It's the hundred years of brutality where no one dared raise themselves in opposition.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36 This is that Caesar Augustus.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:44 So when Luke tells us about who's emperor and who's governor in Syria and in
00:39:44 --> 00:39:52 Palestine, and who's in the temple in Jerusalem when Jesus is born,
00:39:52 --> 00:39:59 what Luke is saying is, look, those were the darkest days in humanity.
00:40:00 --> 00:40:06 The government was against you, and the temple will become the stooge of the
00:40:06 --> 00:40:09 government and were only looking out for themselves.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:15 The people felt they were powerless and had nowhere to turn.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:18 Nobody was listening to them.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:22 No one could turn this around.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:28 And this gospel is written to talk about the spiritual truth,
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29 not the historical truth.
00:40:30 --> 00:40:33 It happened in history, but that's not its glory. The glory is it's happening
00:40:33 --> 00:40:38 right now. No, it happens in every moment of time that at the deepest dark,
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41 the new radiance is born.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:48 We that know that at the deepest dark, the new radiance is born have the strength,
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51 not of hope, but of belief.
00:40:51 --> 00:40:54 We don't know when the turnaround is going to come.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:58 God, I hope it's this afternoon or tomorrow.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:06 But what I know by faith is it will happen. It is the truth of our God,
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 and it is part of the incarnation of our cosmos.
00:41:09 --> 00:41:15 And it's the reality of Jesus the Christ. There is no depth of darkness.
00:41:16 --> 00:41:21 That we'll ever ultimately win. Something you said a minute ago,
00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 I thought maybe was germane for some of the people listening right now.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:30 You had mentioned that this gospel was written in the context of a great divorce
00:41:30 --> 00:41:34 between the Jews and the Christians.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:39 And a lot of people listening to this podcast right now find themselves in the
00:41:39 --> 00:41:44 middle of a kind of a divorce from maybe the type or the,
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 the interpretation of whatever religion that they were maybe originally brought up with.
00:41:50 --> 00:41:52 They, you know, kind of like we've talked about in past episodes,
00:41:52 --> 00:41:57 you know, the hero's journey oftentimes requires a leaving, which feels really,
00:41:57 --> 00:41:59 really difficult and brings a great deal of pain.
00:42:00 --> 00:42:05 And I just feel like so much of what you're saying can speak to that as well.
00:42:07 --> 00:42:13 Absolutely. And it's why it's, it's the power and the beauty of that genealogy
00:42:13 --> 00:42:21 at sundown on Christmas at that moment that we leave the 24th and we move into the 25th.
00:42:21 --> 00:42:23 And we hear about Tamar.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:30 Tamar who had to do something that many were going to consider highly unethical.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:40 And we hear about David, David the king who became an accomplice to murder for lust.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:48 And we hear about Rahab, who owns the house of ill repute in the city of Jericho,
00:42:48 --> 00:42:57 and yet she hides the Jewish spies in the city, and she shows them the ways
00:42:57 --> 00:43:01 to get through the walls at night after the gates have come down.
00:43:01 --> 00:43:09 And therefore, for that glorious act, She's part of salvation history.
00:43:10 --> 00:43:20 And we also hear about Ruth, who, for the love of a fellow sister who's no longer Jewish.
00:43:21 --> 00:43:31 So we have all of these great stories of people who find themselves in situations that others would go,
00:43:32 --> 00:43:38 point their finger, wag their tongues, and say certainly that behavior is not of God.
00:43:38 --> 00:43:44 And yet God acts in the midst of each one of these untoward situations.
00:43:45 --> 00:43:48 That's quote-unquote salvation history.
00:43:50 --> 00:43:57 And just like it happened in their lives, it will happen in our life.
00:43:58 --> 00:44:00 It will happen in our heart.
00:44:01 --> 00:44:05 I think so. I think for myself, and I don't know about you, John,
00:44:05 --> 00:44:08 but I know even in my family, Like there's,
00:44:08 --> 00:44:13 you know, there's, especially in the political season we find ourself in,
00:44:13 --> 00:44:21 in the spiritual season we find ourself in, there's a lot of judgment just flying around.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:27 And a lot of people, you know, creating new enemies for themselves or feeling
00:44:27 --> 00:44:35 estranged, you know, this time of year because of maybe their lifestyle or their, you know,
00:44:35 --> 00:44:41 political leaning or their spiritual doubting or faith or lack of faith or whatever.
00:44:41 --> 00:44:47 And I just, I feel like everything you're saying right now is speaking into those situations.
00:44:47 --> 00:44:50 Well i'm speaking to my
00:44:50 --> 00:44:53 own life and my own experiences and we've talked about
00:44:53 --> 00:44:56 this at other times but you know i i
00:44:56 --> 00:45:00 had to step out from my family and
00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 there was nothing in my lebanese lineage of generations upon generations that
00:45:04 --> 00:45:13 ever said a lebanese son could step out but i had to i for the God in me and
00:45:13 --> 00:45:16 the voice in me of wisdom, I had to.
00:45:18 --> 00:45:21 And it's still pain. I mean, I know I had to.
00:45:22 --> 00:45:27 I know that I did the best that I could. I know that I fulfilled,
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 I think, what Spirit was asking of me.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:31 None of that takes away the pain.
00:45:32 --> 00:45:38 I was with my family recently, and for me, as much as I love them,
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42 And I know they love me, but that pain still sits there.
00:45:43 --> 00:45:49 They really can't grasp who I am and what I've done. It's difficult.
00:45:50 --> 00:45:57 It is. And yet I also know that I could not be doing this work.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:02 It was like each of us have to go to that place of the deepest dark,
00:46:03 --> 00:46:05 and there we'll find the fresh radiance.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:09 There we'll find the new grace of Jesus the Christ, whatever language you want to use.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:13 And the way that we get to the deepest dark is going
00:46:13 --> 00:46:16 to feel lonely and painful and it's
00:46:16 --> 00:46:20 going to be filled with a sense of betrayals and abandonment so
00:46:20 --> 00:46:23 one of the things i find so remarkable about the
00:46:23 --> 00:46:28 work that you do is that you you always bring us new insights and and new eyes
00:46:28 --> 00:46:33 with which to see you know material that we've read over and over and over again
00:46:33 --> 00:46:40 and and again you're doing the same thing with the birth story and the celebration of Christmas.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:45 And what you just said, I literally wrote this quote down. I'd heard you say
00:46:45 --> 00:46:50 this in another interview with Rob a couple of years back, the only place radiance
00:46:50 --> 00:46:52 can be born is within the depths of darkness.
00:46:52 --> 00:46:59 And for a society of people who I think it's safe to say we do everything in
00:46:59 --> 00:47:02 our power to avoid darkness and to avoid pain and to avoid suffering,
00:47:03 --> 00:47:06 even though there can be beauty and light found within that.
00:47:07 --> 00:47:12 I don't know. How do we encourage people to embrace that and to seek the rebirth
00:47:12 --> 00:47:16 that comes as a result? How much time do we have?
00:47:17 --> 00:47:27 I love you, Alexander. it i wish i had a pat answer and here here are some touchstone
00:47:27 --> 00:47:30 first obviously is prayer and
00:47:30 --> 00:47:34 meditation and the way that prayer and meditation isn't infilling for you,
00:47:35 --> 00:47:41 but secondly go find those stories go find those movies.
00:47:42 --> 00:47:47 That touch you about the courage to make that journey?
00:47:48 --> 00:47:55 Now, what are the movies that have really touched you, those people who have
00:47:55 --> 00:47:59 gone through those really difficult times and they've seen the turnaround?
00:48:00 --> 00:48:04 We know it in other people's lives, and I'm willing to bet that every one of
00:48:04 --> 00:48:08 us has got a place in our own life that we know it too, although we probably
00:48:08 --> 00:48:10 have discounted it in some way.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:18 But prayer meditation the stories of others and then at least one rock solid
00:48:18 --> 00:48:26 good friend who you almost literally trust with your wife and will help you not wallow in despair,
00:48:27 --> 00:48:29 they'll walk with you but they won't let you wallow,
00:48:31 --> 00:48:38 every one of us has a journey to make and I just came back from leading eight
00:48:38 --> 00:48:44 pilgrims 55 days on the Camino and I'm learning I'm teaching myself about being
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 a guide on the Camino and it's,
00:48:48 --> 00:48:54 like I so want to be able to help people transform without going through the
00:48:54 --> 00:48:59 pain and I so want to be this person that can sit there and back slab and.
00:49:01 --> 00:49:07 Tell them it's going to be alright and compliment them and I will to a point
00:49:07 --> 00:49:13 But the reality is, you have to find it in yourself.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:20 And when anyone else does it for you, you ultimately won't find it in yourself.
00:49:21 --> 00:49:26 Jung has this quote, and I've used it maybe too often, but I've really learned the truth of it.
00:49:27 --> 00:49:35 It's only when your ego feels totally abandoned that the deep healing powers are activated.
00:49:36 --> 00:49:41 Oof. I think I heard Joel Osteen say that once. Stop.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:45 You know what I love about that,
00:49:45 --> 00:49:53 Alexander, is it rings so true because no part of me wants to hear that.
00:49:55 --> 00:50:03 To say it. Or to say it. And that's actually one of my acid tests in life at this point.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:09 You start to recognize the voice of your ego and how it's always trying to protect
00:50:09 --> 00:50:10 itself. And you're right.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:17 It is the leaving, it is the pain, it is the darkness that we have to move into.
00:50:17 --> 00:50:23 And I love how you lay out the Gospels in a way that helps us do that.
00:50:23 --> 00:50:26 Thank you so much for your work, friend.
00:50:28 --> 00:50:30 Hey, I'm trying to take that in, guys.
00:50:31 --> 00:50:38 And I so appreciate the two of you. So before we say goodbye for now.
00:50:38 --> 00:50:43 I've got one more piece. I don't know if we've got time. Totally. Absolutely. Do it.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:51 It's like, I want to do this piece about St. Nicholas and Santa Claus.
00:50:51 --> 00:50:57 Yes. Because it really bears on the spiritual practice of the darkness.
00:50:59 --> 00:51:02 And the christianity and jesus want
00:51:02 --> 00:51:05 to teach us about one of the ways that
00:51:05 --> 00:51:09 we work with the place of darkness is that
00:51:09 --> 00:51:14 we stretch ourselves to utter generosity because when we're in that place in
00:51:14 --> 00:51:20 darkness we want to pull in we want to we want to we want to circle the wagons
00:51:20 --> 00:51:26 and we want to count our resources and we want to hold on to them really tight and take a nap.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 And that's exactly opposite from what spiritual practice is teaching us.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:38 Spiritual practice is saying, when you're at that place of the utter darkness,
00:51:38 --> 00:51:41 open your heart in generosity to others.
00:51:42 --> 00:51:48 So when Christianity was met
00:51:48 --> 00:51:55 with this myth of Santa Claus in the northern climes of Europe, Thank you.
00:51:57 --> 00:52:03 We wanted to find the deeper truth of Santa Claus, because there's a truth there.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:06 But we wanted to find the deeper truth.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:10 And we wanted to find it in an incarnational way in our history,
00:52:10 --> 00:52:13 and then bring it forward as a spiritual practice.
00:52:14 --> 00:52:19 That's what we do. We find a historical story, and we bring it forward,
00:52:19 --> 00:52:23 not as history, but we bring it forward as a spiritual practice for us to model.
00:52:24 --> 00:52:27 And so our model became St. Nicholas.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:31 St. Nicholas was the great saint of the first thousand years of Christianity
00:52:31 --> 00:52:33 in the way that we might think of St.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:36 Francis as the great saint of the second thousand years.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:43 Now, who was Nicholas? Nicholas was a young boy, orphaned, but that his parents
00:52:43 --> 00:52:45 died when he was quite young.
00:52:45 --> 00:52:49 He came from an incredibly wealthy family.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:52 But in today's terms, he had billions.
00:52:53 --> 00:52:59 He grows up, he has the character of holiness, he's called early to be a priest,
00:52:59 --> 00:53:05 and then some say even as early as the age of 18 is elected bishop.
00:53:06 --> 00:53:12 If that's true, let's also remember that in those days, the lifespan was somewhere in your 40s.
00:53:13 --> 00:53:19 But as bishop, what he would do is he would take care of his people secretly.
00:53:19 --> 00:53:23 He would find ways to gift
00:53:23 --> 00:53:26 them with money and objects that they needed and
00:53:26 --> 00:53:29 there are the the stories the sort of
00:53:29 --> 00:53:36 the classic story of saint nicholas is his city was being ravaged by people
00:53:36 --> 00:53:43 having to sell their children into slavery to live and they were having to sell
00:53:43 --> 00:53:46 their daughters into sex slavery to live.
00:53:47 --> 00:53:54 And so what Nicholas would do is he would bundle up gold coins as a dowry and
00:53:54 --> 00:53:59 lead them on the doorsteps of these young girls so that the girls had a dowry
00:53:59 --> 00:54:01 and wouldn't have to be sold into slavery.
00:54:02 --> 00:54:07 Nobody knew who was doing this until after Nicholas died.
00:54:08 --> 00:54:13 And they discovered that he died with almost no money left.
00:54:14 --> 00:54:22 So, there is a great truth in Santa Claus in the depths of the darkness of December.
00:54:23 --> 00:54:32 Let us remember that what ends the arrival of the fresh radiance is our personal generosity.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:39 And a generosity which is not only of giving what we have, but perhaps even
00:54:39 --> 00:54:43 stretching a bit into what we actually think we need.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:49 That's the story of Christmas. Well, I'm going to scratch off that last question
00:54:49 --> 00:54:52 I had. Yep, we're ending right there. Yep.
00:54:53 --> 00:54:56 Wow. Thank you so much for coming back.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:00 Adam and I, I know we've, the three of us have had this, this plan for,
00:55:00 --> 00:55:04 for months since the last time you were on actually in the spring.
00:55:04 --> 00:55:09 And we just, we just knew that you were going to have some good stuff to say.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:14 And we're super excited about this. And we just hope that, that the people listening
00:55:14 --> 00:55:20 out there really take this as just a beacon of light and a bit of hope in a
00:55:20 --> 00:55:23 season where some families aren't as fortunate as others.
00:55:24 --> 00:55:27 So if you're struggling out there, if you're in a dark place,
00:55:27 --> 00:55:32 I hope this episode helped you in some way.
00:55:32 --> 00:55:35 So Merry Christmas, Alexander.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:40 From the bottom of my heart to everybody and especially to those in the depths
00:55:40 --> 00:55:45 of an interior darkness, may the Christ come quickly.
00:55:47 --> 00:56:10 Music.
00:55:48 --> 00:55:58 The stars hung in the sky, gazing upon the world that night,
00:55:58 --> 00:56:03 a world that was different and finally had a chance.
00:56:07 --> 00:56:12 Oh, we did it again. We did it again. I have very few words.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:16 I really do. We've had him on. He is the reigning champion. He is.
00:56:16 --> 00:56:20 It's almost like SNL where they, I feel like we should hand out those blazers
00:56:20 --> 00:56:24 like they do for like Justin Timberlake or 10 time host or whatever. Like Alec Baldwin.
00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 Like he's the rainy, he and he and Peter Rounds, we've, we've cultivated a friend
00:56:29 --> 00:56:32 friendships with, and they know we've made it abundantly clear.
00:56:33 --> 00:56:35 Like, Hey, we, we appreciate and value what you bring to the table.
00:56:36 --> 00:56:40 And so, yeah, you guys are always welcome to come on and we've been fortunate
00:56:40 --> 00:56:45 and, you know, from benefiting from their wisdom and having had them on multiple times.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:50 And we've had this planned for months. I think since we did the Easter episode
00:56:50 --> 00:56:54 with him, he was like, hey, what would you guys think about talking a little
00:56:54 --> 00:56:56 Christmas closer to the holidays? And we were like, yeah.
00:56:57 --> 00:57:00 Yeah, we don't say no to that. No. No, we don't say no to that.
00:57:00 --> 00:57:04 Honestly, he could be like, let's talk about broccoli. And I'd be like,
00:57:04 --> 00:57:06 I'm sure you got something good in there. Okay.
00:57:07 --> 00:57:11 Brussels sprouts, broccoli, asparagus. Yeah. He'd be like, well,
00:57:11 --> 00:57:12 let me tell you about the history.
00:57:12 --> 00:57:18 I'm like, oh, okay. But, you know, I mean, just being able to,
00:57:18 --> 00:57:26 I think that the mark of a truly gifted spiritual teacher is to draw on ancient
00:57:26 --> 00:57:30 sources and create fresh things.
00:57:30 --> 00:57:33 Freshness, fresh insight, fresh life. Yeah.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:37 Not necessarily even fresh insight because even the insights are like ancient,
00:57:37 --> 00:57:41 but the way that you, nobody's put them into the words that like Alexander Shia uses.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:46 Right. And with his background in, you know, anthropology and psychiatry and,
00:57:46 --> 00:57:52 you know, studying under Joseph Campbell and knowing this, this fourfold path
00:57:52 --> 00:57:55 to the gospels, the quadratus, the way he does. Yeah.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:59 Man, as somebody that has probably studied Bible more than I would even care
00:57:59 --> 00:58:02 to think about. Truly? Yeah.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:07 I could sit at his feet and listen to him talk about this stuff all day because
00:58:07 --> 00:58:12 not only is it really divine, it's really human. Yeah.
00:58:12 --> 00:58:18 And for the history nerd in me, I always appreciate having him on because he does.
00:58:18 --> 00:58:22 He has this understanding and appreciation of who the original audiences would
00:58:22 --> 00:58:26 have been and what these messages would have meant to them and why they were
00:58:26 --> 00:58:28 written differently from one another.
00:58:28 --> 00:58:34 So like why the gospel of Luke has a different focus than the gospel of like
00:58:34 --> 00:58:35 Matthew, but why that's important.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:42 And so like, yeah, you look at people who spend their days arguing like over
00:58:42 --> 00:58:45 like differences between them and discrepancies or whatever.
00:58:45 --> 00:58:51 And you've got this scholar like Shia, who's just like, no, like they were fully
00:58:51 --> 00:58:56 aware of the differences and that you're missing the point. Right.
00:58:56 --> 00:58:59 You know, let's take a deeper look here. Yeah.
00:58:59 --> 00:59:02 There's treasure. There's treasure to be mined here. So much treasure.
00:59:02 --> 00:59:07 And just his ability to, well, let me say this.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:10 I think one of the things that I can kind of put my finger on that I like about
00:59:10 --> 00:59:15 him so incredibly much is that with some people, you know you're just listening
00:59:15 --> 00:59:18 to somebody who's just brilliant.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:20 They're just gifted, and they're brilliant, and they're scholarly,
00:59:20 --> 00:59:23 and they've read a bunch of stuff, and they're really good at,
00:59:23 --> 00:59:25 like, outlining it for you.
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 Yeah. And I always respect scholars like that.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:35 And then what Shia brings to the table, in my opinion, is you learn—,
00:59:36 --> 00:59:41 But more than that, I get a sense when he's talking that this is coming from
00:59:41 --> 00:59:47 a deep, almost groaning, real place from within him.
00:59:47 --> 00:59:55 That it's so internalized in him that I almost care less about what he says.
00:59:55 --> 01:00:00 And I more just love the, to use a hippie phrase, the vibe that he just sends out.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:05 That I'm like, this guy is, it means so much to him.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:11 Yeah beyond just like look at all this stuff i know it's no it just you can tell it's changed him.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:15 I mean he just he almost aches when he talks yeah
01:00:15 --> 01:00:18 because it means so much to him yeah he reminds me
01:00:18 --> 01:00:20 of it's almost like when you see a really good
01:00:20 --> 01:00:25 musician who writes a really personal song to them and then performs it and
01:00:25 --> 01:00:30 loses themselves so much in the moment that like all their emotions are spilling
01:00:30 --> 01:00:34 out and then open on stage that's exactly it like i just keep thinking i'm like
01:00:34 --> 01:00:40 man he must do these interviews and pour all this stuff out of him and just be exhausted. Yeah.
01:00:41 --> 01:00:46 But like, what a, what a treasure. And like, he's not one of those guys who,
01:00:46 --> 01:00:49 who's, you know, like at the moment as well known as like a Rob Bell or like
01:00:49 --> 01:00:51 some of the other big names in the industry.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:54 But my gosh, I wish he was. Yeah.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:58 I think, you know, I think, Oh, and heart and mind. We got the paperback.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:00 Oh crap. Yeah. Heart and mind. Second edition.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:04 Everybody get on Amazon right now and order yourself a paperback.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:07 Copy of heart and mind second edition yeah second edition is
01:01:07 --> 01:01:10 it how much is it let's look isn't it like 11 bucks or
01:01:10 --> 01:01:13 something it's it's not yeah it's so
01:01:13 --> 01:01:16 like originally it was really hard to find there was only like a hard copy of
01:01:16 --> 01:01:20 the original printing we paid like 50 bucks for our first one yes yes i did
01:01:20 --> 01:01:25 but the new one there's a second edition second printing that just came out
01:01:25 --> 01:01:30 and pulling up on amazon right now second edition paperback you can get for
01:01:30 --> 01:01:34 24.99 on amazon prime Every penny. Yeah, second edition.
01:01:35 --> 01:01:43 And I think the, let's see, if you're a tech guy, you don't like that hard copy
01:01:43 --> 01:01:46 in your hands like I do, I got to highlight stuff, man. I just can't.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:48 Oh yeah, the Kindle is $10. Yeah, $9.99.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:53 So if you like the Kindle, if you get your Nook or your Amazon Fire,
01:01:53 --> 01:01:57 your iPad, whatever you want to read on, it's $10 and it is incredible.
01:01:57 --> 01:02:02 And he walks you through the four gospels, or what he calls the four gospel journey.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:06 Yes. And we'll, like, he'll show it to you in a whole new way.
01:02:07 --> 01:02:10 The Gospels, the canonical Gospels. A transformative journey. Whoa. Yeah.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:13 Unbelievable. Yeah. He might be Jesus. No, I'm just kidding.
01:02:14 --> 01:02:18 I mean. Sacrilege, I know. Sorry. No. Whoops. Well, I mean, he would even say,
01:02:18 --> 01:02:21 like, you know, the Christ is, like, in. Yeah?
01:02:21 --> 01:02:25 You know, the incarnations and, like, the Jesus in, like, even,
01:02:25 --> 01:02:26 like, you can sit next to a tree and...
01:02:29 --> 01:02:34 Oh my goodness. He's so good. Anyway, we gush when he's, he means a lot to us. Yeah.
01:02:34 --> 01:02:38 And we love him very, very much and really appreciate the interest he's taken
01:02:38 --> 01:02:40 in us as humans and this show.
01:02:40 --> 01:02:44 So getting to hear him talk about Christmas and how the darkness gives way to
01:02:44 --> 01:02:51 light and Saint Nick and what's going on in the gospels in these,
01:02:51 --> 01:02:53 you know, really familiar stories and breaking,
01:02:53 --> 01:02:56 breaking through with new life. It's just a gift.
01:02:56 --> 01:03:01 Yeah. It's a gift to me, and it's great to get to end our interviews this year
01:03:01 --> 01:03:03 on a guy that I love so much.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:07 Yep. Yep. I can't really add much more to that. I think you just got to listen
01:03:07 --> 01:03:10 to the episode, and hopefully if you guys are flying or driving somewhere right
01:03:10 --> 01:03:13 now, hopefully you're enjoying your time.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:15 Hopefully you get a little time off at least for the holidays.
01:03:16 --> 01:03:18 Yes. And we'll be back for one more this year.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:23 We're going to wrap it up and give you guys some idea of what to look forward to next year.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:26 Yes. If you haven't already, check out our brand new revamped website,
01:03:26 --> 01:03:29 courtesy of Ryan Battles. We love you, Ryan Battles. So good.
01:03:29 --> 01:03:34 Www.thedeconstructionist.com. If you go there, you can literally do anything.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:40 You can connect to us on social media. You can email us to tell us how unattractive
01:03:40 --> 01:03:41 we are and how we should stick to radio.
01:03:42 --> 01:03:44 Don't you love John's winter beard? Yeah. If you've seen it.
01:03:44 --> 01:03:47 You can encourage my growing winter beard. John, I want to talk about your blog for a second.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:52 It's so good, and I know you're not going to talk about it. John just published
01:03:52 --> 01:03:55 a new blog on, it's under journal on our website.
01:03:56 --> 01:03:59 It's freaking awesome. You guys need to read it. I know you put a lot of work
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 into that, man. And it's really good.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:06 I had a problem and I had to stop. It's so good, man.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:09 As soon as I finished reading it, I gave it to my wife. I was like,
01:04:09 --> 01:04:11 you need to read this right now.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:14 Thanks, man. That means a lot. It's so good. So I'm not going to tell them too
01:04:14 --> 01:04:17 much about it, but just about what it means to be made in the image of God and
01:04:17 --> 01:04:21 what that has to do with love and how important that is and how it calls us forward.
01:04:21 --> 01:04:25 He put some incredible words to that. So get on our website. for
01:04:25 --> 01:04:27 those of you supporting us on patreon thank you are our
01:04:27 --> 01:04:30 christmas hug this year thank you so so so
01:04:30 --> 01:04:33 much yes we take that very seriously we love
01:04:33 --> 01:04:36 doing this with you guys and we're gonna make that money work for
01:04:36 --> 01:04:39 you yes big things coming next year i think
01:04:39 --> 01:04:42 it's important to kind of say like we don't we don't pay ourselves out of that
01:04:42 --> 01:04:45 no like none of none of that like goes to our pockets at all i think that's
01:04:45 --> 01:04:49 worth saying i think some people think that's like yeah we're bankrupt like
01:04:49 --> 01:04:53 hey i'm gonna quit my job and be the deconstructionists it's funny because like
01:04:53 --> 01:04:57 i I take a look at our bank like often because I'm usually the one that's ordering
01:04:57 --> 01:04:58 like supplies and stuff.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:01 And I'm like, oh, man, we should have like a decent balance in there.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:04 And then I realized that I had like it all goes back into the podcast.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:05 It all goes back into the podcast.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:10 It's like reordering T-shirts that you guys are seem to be enjoying and reordering
01:05:10 --> 01:05:14 buttons and stickers and shipping books out to people who have signed up for
01:05:14 --> 01:05:17 that and paying for our domain name and all that stuff.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:22 It's it's such a joy. And and we cannot be more humbled and appreciative of
01:05:22 --> 01:05:23 every single person out there.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:27 Whether you're donating or not, whether you're just sending us happy vibes over
01:05:27 --> 01:05:29 email, that means the world to us.
01:05:29 --> 01:05:34 We're on social media, just reaching out and saying, hey, we appreciate what you're doing.
01:05:34 --> 01:05:37 Sharing it with your friends. Yes, that's so huge. Word of mouth is massive
01:05:37 --> 01:05:41 for us. We've never advertised. We've never spent a dime in advertising.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:46 And so this whole podcast has grown by word of mouth. That's it.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:50 Completely grassroots. And we're super proud of that. So thank you guys for
01:05:50 --> 01:05:53 anyone who's ever told. And a friend about it. All the iTunes reviews,
01:05:53 --> 01:05:54 we take them all very, very seriously.
01:05:54 --> 01:05:59 The positive ones we use as affirmation because we're both very insecure and we need the hugs. Yeah.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:04 And the negative ones, we cry and then we use it as constructive criticism.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:09 True. There's some truth to that. Yeah. Gosh, that really hurt.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:10 I think you might be right.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:14 Wrecks my day and then I feel sad.
01:06:16 --> 01:06:20 We love you guys so much. Thanks for hanging with us and Alexander Shia for
01:06:20 --> 01:06:24 Christmas. And we will definitely be talking to you again soon.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:28 And yeah, Merry Christmas. Yeah. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:31 And we'll talk to you guys next week. Keep deconstructing, everyone.
01:06:33 --> 01:09:23 Music.