In Part 2 of our conversation, Bart Ehrman returns to discuss his latest book, Love Thy Stranger, and the lasting impact Jesus’ teachings had on moral thought in the Western world.
We continue exploring how ideas surrounding compassion, forgiveness, charity, and care for outsiders emerged within early Christianity — while also wrestling with the ways institutions and political movements have often failed to embody those same values.
In this episode we discuss:
- The tension between the teachings of Jesus and modern political Christianity
- Immigration, nationalism, and “loving your neighbor”
- How moral frameworks evolve over time
- The role Christianity played in shaping Western ethics
- Historical misunderstandings about the ancient world
- Why empathy and human dignity remain central themes in Jesus’ message
Be sure to check out Dr. Ehrman’s new book, Love Thy Stranger, available now wherever books are sold.
Guest Bio
Bart Ehrman is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and the author of numerous bestselling books including Misquoting Jesus, Heaven and Hell, Jesus Interrupted, and How Jesus Became God. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Support The Deconstructionists
If you enjoy the show, there are several ways to support us:
- Join our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, educational videos, study guides, and more
- Check out our merch store for brand-new designs and returning favorites
- Leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform
- Share the episode with a friend
More info at: www.thedeconstructionsts.org
Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
00:00 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when Christianity took over the Roman Empire, starting in the 4th century in a big way by the end of the 5th century, basically, they're getting there.
00:07 --> 00:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Once the Roman Empire, the entire Western world at the time becomes Christian.
00:12 --> 00:23 [SPEAKER_00]: People here, this message repeatedly, help those in need, help those in, and it changes where people give their money to and it changes how they understand what it means to be a good person.
00:23 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And that view sticks around century after century after century after century.
00:27 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So that today, even those of us who are atheists, have this built into our moral system.
00:33 --> 00:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because of the fact that Christianity took over the world and that Christianity took out as the core moral teaching that you need to help people in need, which was not the teaching anywhere else in the West world before.
00:53 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the deconstructionist podcast, I'm your host John Williamson, and welcome back to part two of my conversation with Bart Irman.
01:02 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_04]: If you have a listen to part one yet, I definitely recommend starting there, where we laid the groundwork for his new book called Love by Stranger, How The Teachings of Jesus Transform the Moral Conscience of the West.
01:13 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_04]: In the second half of the conversation we go deeper, looking at how these teachings of Jesus were interpreted, adapted, and in some cases distorted over time.
01:22 --> 01:43 [SPEAKER_04]: We also talk about the tension between what Jesus taught and how those teachings have been applied or not applied throughout history, including in modern expressions of Christianity, as always, Dr. Herman brings a level of clarity and historical insight that makes these complex topics both accessible and deeply thought provoking had a great time, it was an absolute privilege and an honor.
01:43 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Before we get to the second half of this, if you'd like to support the podcast, if you can, if it's done something for you and it's been helpful in your journey,
01:52 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_04]: If you have the ability to support, we greatly appreciate there's two ways you can do that links around the show notes with a Patreon brand new Patreon that we just relaunched with a bunch of new content on it.
02:02 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Add free episodes, a chat.
02:05 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_04]: We also have the popular book club,
02:07 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_04]: world ship you a book maybe one from a guest and maybe one of you know by somebody who we haven't had on yet so like you never know we also have some other stuff on there like some study guide content some deeper dive videos that I've made have a lot of fun with those so check that out if you can the other way to do is if you want to pick up a t-shirt or a coffee mug or something like that all the proceeds from our web store go back into funding and paying for the podcast.
02:35 --> 02:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, if you can't support in that way, that's totally fine, love you anyway.
02:40 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_04]: If you could, leave a review and rating on whatever platform you're using and that just helps us get in front of new people.
02:48 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_04]: So, appreciate that.
02:50 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_04]: So, without further ado, let's get to part two of my conversation with Dr. Bart Freakin, Herman.
03:06 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that you actually kind of jumped into my my next question, which is, you know, this sort of resistance that's that's cropping up again here and now and it's I think it's really being tested or strained even because we're confronted with this everyday now where we've got ice out there who are aggressively trying to remove.
03:25 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_04]: immigrants from society, and then we've got this new war in Iran questionable, a best we'll say.
03:31 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_04]: And so people are being kind of put to the test, we're like, you know, and if again, if we refer back to what the Bible has to say about these types of things, it feels pretty clear.
03:40 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And yet we see people bending over backwards within Christianity in the United States, finding ways to still defend these things.
03:47 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's the irony for me.
03:49 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I certainly have strong political opinions and binge about social agendas, like everyone else.
03:55 --> 04:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But in this, in my book, Love Life Stranger and in the things we're talking about now, it's not so much about like, I want everybody to agree with me on my personal views.
04:04 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: It's that if you really want to know what the teachings of Jesus are, you ought to read what his teachings are.
04:09 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to invoke his name, you ought to invoke his name for something that he stood for, or something he stood against.
04:15 --> 04:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's quite clear, Jesus said, love your enemies.
04:19 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So I did a podcast last a few days ago, actually, with a Ukrainian theologian.
04:24 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He's from Ukraine, and he escaped when the Russians came in.
04:28 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_00]: He was one of those cities where the Russians were
04:30 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Taking all them men and making them serve in the Russian army.
04:33 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So he he got out ahead of that and he's living in Poland now and But he's a Christian theologian and so I asked him I said, you know, like, you know You're a follower of the Bible.
04:44 --> 04:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's not fundamentalist or anything.
04:46 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a year followers Jesus and he says love your enemies.
04:48 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you possibly love the Russians and he said yeah?
04:51 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_00]: He said no, I know it.
04:52 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard.
04:53 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_00]: He said I said it doesn't mean I have to like them It doesn't mean I have to prove what they're doing.
04:57 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean I should help them do what they're doing at all
05:00 --> 05:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Loving them means that I should hope for the best for them, and the best thing for them would be to stop killing innocent people and stop attacking our country.
05:10 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_00]: If they would do that, it would be better for them.
05:12 --> 05:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I really hope not just for our sake, but for their sake, they'll stop.
05:16 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And that man, that's hard.
05:18 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: That's hard to do, to feel that way about people who are just invading your country.
05:23 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, my dad who is retired, you know, you'll see a Lutheran pastor and I have a lot of discussions on that very topic, you know, he talks about, you know, this this homage family who's I think son or daughter, son, I believe was murdered and their ability to forgive the killer and I think if even a bigger example obviously the Holocaust, which you brought up earlier, you know, these, these Jews who were in concentration camps who somehow find a way to forgive.
05:49 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, again, the people who have been torturing and murdering them, and I just, it's impossible for me to conceive of, you know, I think if somebody harming my daughter and I'm like, there's a limit to my forgiveness.
05:59 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
05:59 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
06:00 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
06:01 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, for me, it's, it's, you know, it's not that it says people behave a certain way.
06:06 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I have strong feelings about help you a lot to behave.
06:08 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I personally think the teachings of Jesus are ones that I try to follow, even though I'm not a Christian, but, um,
06:15 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_00]: what really irritates me is people who weaponize his teachings for their own agendas that are precisely contrary to his teachings.
06:24 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you have people praying that we can just completely slaughter the enemy in Jesus' name.
06:30 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: What?
06:30 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I would ask where you think you'd be, but you're clearly not thinking.
06:33 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks.
06:36 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's like who's at the Democratic candidate from Texas James
06:43 --> 06:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Who had some pastors openly pray for his demise and like what are we what and you heard his response?
06:49 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_00]: He said I love you more than you hate me I said wow.
06:53 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That's yeah.
06:54 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_00]: No, he's the real deal.
06:55 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
06:55 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed.
06:57 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's that's that's the response that you would hope, you know But why does it break down on political lines?
07:03 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't all right like it makes no sense.
07:05 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: You know even things like abortion It makes no sense that to be on political lines, but
07:11 --> 07:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, because it doesn't, everybody wants people to live, everybody wants people to have choice.
07:16 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And historically abortion was never a Republican issue.
07:21 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_00]: It became a Republican issue.
07:23 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And so much so that to be a Republican, you've got to have one view.
07:27 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like, why?
07:28 --> 07:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not in the Bible, by the way, you know, I think there's no specific reference to abortion in the Bible.
07:36 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_00]: There's only two passages in the Hebrew Bible that are related at all, both of them indicate that in the judgment of those who are writing the Jewish law, the fetus is not a human being with human rights.
07:49 --> 07:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Number five, X is one, it's Claire's Day.
07:51 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, you point, you rightly point out the fact that I think the issues have been sort of for lack of a better term dumb down to the point where it takes out all nuance, you know, which is something, again, we talked about earlier, where, you know, I made the point, you know, I was talking to one of my good friends, whose family typically votes a certain certain way, fairly conservative.
08:10 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_04]: And I said, you know, if Hitler was running, on your ticket,
08:14 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_00]: would you vote for them so long as they were pro pro life you know we take on the ones out of it and looking in in terms of looking at the larger picture it's like no what do people don't what do we people don't want they don't want they don't want they don't want expertise they don't want nuance they want don't want intellectuals they don't want scholars they want they want to go with their gut and and with leaders who go with their gut and so okay i mean that's um
08:38 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where we are, but it's too bad because it can lead to so much harm in the world.
08:44 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Not, you know, I'm not just, you know, obviously not just on about actually producing the Bible, or you know what I'm like, how about like in medicine and science and things like expertise.
08:53 --> 08:59 [SPEAKER_00]: People land fast, like scientists and stuff, but they still use iPhones, or they think the iPhones came from.
08:59 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's gut feeling?
09:01 --> 09:01 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
09:04 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and I find that those people always have a line, right?
09:07 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, if they were going in for open heart surgery, if you want the guys like, I feel good about this or the guy who spent, you know, a decade learning how to do that.
09:16 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
09:17 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
09:18 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
09:18 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I know.
09:19 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
09:19 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_04]: And kind of the other thing I was thinking of too is when we talk about this very complex issues, you know, I think to your point, you know, I'm not, I'm not pro abortion, you know, I'm pro choice, but because it's a complex issue, I'm not pro abortion though.
09:34 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_04]: It's very different, you know, I'm for, you know, sex education and readily available contraceptives.
09:42 --> 09:42 [SPEAKER_04]: So like,
09:42 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, so that way we can avoid putting young women in that dilemma to make an unbelievably difficult choice that I will never understand because I'm a male and so, you know, there's there's new wants to these types of discussions that just does not exist and you know.
09:59 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's very there's there's there's no neutral territory.
10:02 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: There's right and wrong and these this side and that side and people don't listen to the other side I mean on the abortion issue.
10:09 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I really listen to people who have different views from mine.
10:13 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I myself have changed my views over the years and so I'm you know There are very many people like changing their views you know people tend to basically they let stick with a lot You know whatever they thought when there were 12 is true Still when there's 70 what
10:26 --> 10:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You should be willing to change your mind if you think about it, you know, people don't like to think.
10:30 --> 10:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They like to, I mean, looks a lot of people like to think, of course, a lot of people, of course, they love to think.
10:35 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of us like to think, but it is scary how much of the population does not really want to think.
10:41 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_00]: They want to be entertained, and life is hard, or life is boring, and so it's that way.
10:48 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we need to have people who are intelligent and have expertise who are,
10:55 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_00]: helping us live our lives, because it's not just that thinking is complicated and nuanced, but life is complicated and nuanced.
11:02 --> 11:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have to have people who know what they're doing for us to get by.
11:08 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
11:09 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_04]: My first reaction is what does the preponderance of scholarship have to say about this particular topic.
11:15 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the people who have spent life times studying this subject matter,
11:19 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Those are the people who I want to lean into and say what what have you found you know Joe who did 20 minutes of Google research Well, people have kind of these simple arguments against it.
11:31 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, but they're always changing their mind about things, you know, or they used to think this now they think that you can't trust anybody
11:37 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But they certainly trust somebody because you got to trust somebody.
11:40 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to know what to eat, you got to know what to put into your system.
11:43 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to, I mean, you know, and so, yeah, I know, expertise is on the decline.
11:48 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, it's going to really hurt our, it's already hurt in our culture, I think.
11:52 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I want to, I want to acknowledge that you just said as well, you know, they're constantly changing your mind.
11:57 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you have short, like, as new information comes to light, yeah, you know, we have all of our understanding, right?
12:03 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's looking at the evidence.
12:05 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, they're not like whimsically choosing something else.
12:08 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like in the comments, okay, and so there really is progress.
12:12 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course there's progress.
12:14 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look at the lives we're living now versus a hundred years ago, 200 years but three, there's no progress.
12:21 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And it comes by science.
12:23 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, science isn't just chemistry and biology, I mean, science is a way of approaching any subject.
12:30 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, even like literary studies involve the science, philosophy involves a science in the sense that you're looking at evidence and try to evaluate it.
12:39 --> 12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: In a way that isn't just conforming to what you already think, this is a product of the Enlightenment, until Isaac Newton.
12:46 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: first realized that his personal beliefs had no bearing on how an experiment came out.
12:51 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way the experiment came out is what is right.
12:55 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Once he put his personal beliefs and ideas and what made sense to him on the shelf, that's when science starts.
13:03 --> 13:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, that's what biblical scholars do.
13:06 --> 13:12 [SPEAKER_00]: biblical scholars, who once were being really sad, put aside what they personally believe, what the person, if they want to know what Jesus said,
13:12 --> 13:17 [SPEAKER_00]: They look to see what Jesus said, instead of just willy-nilly quoting something that fits their agenda.
13:17 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's interesting that you bring that up.
13:18 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_04]: That's always been sort of something that I've struggled with over the years.
13:22 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_04]: It's, you know, bad, probably shouldn't say it, which scholar, you know, the story's about, but, you know, I use the scholar once who's a biblical scholar, right, and consider himself a historian first and foremost.
13:34 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_04]: And having gone to, you know, university to study history, the first thing they teach you is you follow the evidence wherever it leads you.
13:42 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you don't start with a, with an assumption or a theory or a hypothesis and then you know, look at the evidence.
13:50 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_04]: You look at the evidence first and then you form a conclusion around around that, but yet a lot of or not a lot, but you know, at least some of these biblical scholars are folks who have always had a belief system and so, you know, I, I realized that, you know,
14:11 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_04]: It always becomes sort of suspect to me where does that bleed in when they're doing scholarship?
14:18 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, it's a very, very big problem.
14:20 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_00]: In my wife, it, my wife is a Shakespeare scholar.
14:23 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And she started out as a, as a, medievalist, teasing Fausser and stuff.
14:27 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And when she would study Fausser, she didn't have some kind of vested interest in what her understandings of Fausser were, or she doesn't have a vested interest in what Shakespeare is.
14:37 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, she comes in, she reads and she analyzes it.
14:40 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: But when somebody comes to the Bible, they almost invariably come out of a tradition that the Bible is revered in.
14:46 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: be a very different thing.
14:47 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, but you can still do it in that kind of scientific historical way by being willing to go over the evidence leads you.
14:55 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And to be genuinely, and what happens is people claim they are.
14:59 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you have, I have a lot of evangelical apologists friends who like to fend Christianity, who say, oh, yeah, no, I'm treating this objectively.
15:07 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And it turns out they're objective investigation into whatever issue it is, turns out to prove that they were right
15:16 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And now they've proven it objectively, really, like every time, it just comes out that way, and it's just way as I was right.
15:23 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, I'm not convinced to be, you know, so I personally don't think we all do have biases.
15:30 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_00]: The key is to recognize the biases and to be willing to challenge them, genuinely willing, not just kind of saying you are so you can make a rhetorical point, but generally to be to change.
15:41 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
15:42 --> 15:55 [SPEAKER_04]: Last question I have for you because I know we're running a lot of short on time here, but if Jesus were speaking into today's conversations, again, like we talked about earlier about immigration, outsiders, and empathy, what do you think he would emphasize in what might surprise people?
15:55 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think the first point to make is that Jesus was not interested in governmental policy and he was not interested in social agendas that would improve our lives for the long haul.
16:04 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_00]: and it's because he didn't think there was going to be a long haul.
16:06 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's no, so I don't think we can use him for that kind of thing per se.
16:12 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But we can see what kinds of things he ultimately valued.
16:15 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course he thought loving God above all else was primary.
16:19 --> 16:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And he thought following God's will was primary.
16:21 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: He thought the God's will was that you helped people in need.
16:24 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_00]: He was closely aligned with the Hebrew prophet of the Old Testament, like Isaiah and Amish.
16:30 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_00]: who proclaimed against the leaders of the people and the people who were who selfish and greedy and who mistreated the poor and who didn't give give of their resources to help people in need.
16:44 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus took that teaching and he ran with it.
16:47 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He very much thought that our concerns should be for anybody in need regardless of who they were.
16:53 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when he tells his stories and he tells his parables and he gives his teachings, it doesn't matter what your ethnicity is, your race is, religion is, your nation is, anything like that.
17:04 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_00]: If somebody is in, we are obligated to help.
17:07 --> 17:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we can't really form policies on that per se, but we can ask, you know,
17:13 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: do we have policies that do the best to help people rather than hurt them, or are we more concerned about preserving ourselves and our own wealth and our own riches, our own lifestyle, and to hell with everybody else.
17:29 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it takes for me to advance more, that's what we're going to do.
17:32 --> 17:33 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I wanted to do.
17:33 --> 17:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, okay, if that's your attitude, that's your attitude.
17:36 --> 17:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, good.
17:37 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not the attitude of the historical Jesus.
17:40 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_00]: If that doesn't matter to you, if it doesn't matter.
17:42 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_00]: If you call yourself a Christian, it should matter to you.
17:45 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a perfect place to end that could not agree more.
17:49 --> 17:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, yeah, I hope that there is a sea change.
17:53 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you mentioned earlier that in times of tragedy, it seems, the good comes out.
18:02 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_04]: We saw it 9-11, people banding together
18:06 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we're completing other strangers, you know, that hurricanes that have come through, um, you see it happen then, you know, and it's just a shame that it seems to take this, you know, a large tragedy in order for that to surface, but ultimately I think people do feel the drive to help one another when rubber meets the road.
18:22 --> 18:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.
18:24 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, I've got a pretty simple thesis in my book that historically you can trace it all back to the teachings of Jesus.
18:31 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't say that it's because like it couldn't have come in some other way, but that's historical how it came into our conscience in the West.
18:37 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Love it.
18:38 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you so much.
18:39 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_04]: Before let you go, where can people go to stay up on top of what you're up to and get a copy of the new book?
18:45 --> 18:48 [SPEAKER_00]: A new book you can get anywhere online or at a decent bookstore.
18:48 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of my stuff, if they just Google me, Bart Irman, I'm especially keen for people to know about my blog, the Bart Irman blog.
18:56 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It people have to pay a small membership fee to join.
18:59 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I post five, six times a week, every week for 14 years now.
19:03 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I respond to comments I get, answer every question I get.
19:07 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_00]: All about the New Testament, historical Jesus.
19:09 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_00]: The small membership fee, I don't get a dime.
19:12 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We take no overhead out.
19:14 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: We give all the money to charity, which we've raised over $3 million, and it's all gone to charities dealing with hunger and homelessness.
19:21 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_00]: So the Bart Irman blog is something I'd like people to know about.
19:24 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_04]: That's amazing.
19:25 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_04]: I will make sure that is in the show notes.
19:27 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're listening, you can go there to click on the link and become a member, and that's incredible.
19:32 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much, and it's been a pleasure talking with you.
19:34 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, pleasure.
19:35 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
19:35 --> 19:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.
19:40 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he has a body or even a name, if he does, does he know that I'm alive, is God.
20:01 --> 20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But she carried it out, down to she carried out the fear Something tells me God, we'll survive So take a breath, breathe, breathe
20:32 --> 20:49 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know you, I think a true face If God has a face, His face must look like yours
20:59 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Did God kill his kid?
21:05 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
21:10 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we
21:26 --> 21:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so does that mean it's not real?
21:44 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that is there.
21:56 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, her face must look like you.
22:25 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: A face like a teenager, and I'm at a milled red A rock, send his husband, God send their children Vays like a Kim, a TED or Tyrone A little sea born with an extra chromosome
22:47 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Powerful with legs, he can't move by himself A girl born a Daniel, who now is Danielle A pillage and evil, even white guy's name died If you have a heartbeat, you are the faith
23:15 --> 23:42 [SPEAKER_03]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
23:45 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If