Ep. 196 - John Dominic Crossan ”Paul The Pharisee” pt. 2

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[00:01:33] Deconstructed these walls and I found a...

[00:01:37] Welcome to the Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host, John Williamson.

[00:01:40] And welcome back for part two of my conversation with Dr. John Dominic Crossan.

[00:01:45] If you haven't heard part one yet, hit pause. Go back to last week and listen to part one.

[00:01:50] If you've already listened to it, then welcome back for the conclusion of my conversation with Dr. Crossan on his brand new book,

[00:01:58] Paul the Pharisee, A Vision Beyond the Violence of Civilization.

[00:02:01] As always, had an amazing time having a conversation with him.

[00:02:05] He's one of the foremost New Testament scholars alive in the world today.

[00:02:09] And so anytime you get a chance to talk to somebody like him, it's always a good time.

[00:02:14] So it always feels like a free education for sure.

[00:02:17] So check it out. Check out last week's, again, if you haven't already.

[00:02:21] Check out our earlier interview with him on the resurrection from a couple years back as well.

[00:02:26] Back in our catalog.

[00:02:28] All prior episodes are free.

[00:02:30] You can stream them directly from our website or any of the podcast apps.

[00:02:35] But without further ado, let's get to it.

[00:02:37] If you haven't already reviewed, rated, and subscribed, I think that's all three things you're supposed to do.

[00:02:44] Please go do so.

[00:02:45] We're an independent podcast.

[00:02:46] It just helps us get the word out about the show and or share with a friend if you think it might be useful.

[00:02:53] So appreciate that.

[00:02:54] But otherwise, here is part two and the conclusion of my conversation with John Dominic Crossan.

[00:03:11] That's incredible.

[00:03:12] It makes me think back to the creation story and just how the authors of Genesis tried to distance themselves from other religions

[00:03:21] in the respect that even creation came about as a result of this very peaceful, and that it was good.

[00:03:29] Instead of warring and battling and killing, it seems to be sort of the same attempt within the literature

[00:03:38] to show that this is why we're not the same as this other group of people.

[00:03:44] And we kind of think of, we invented controlling the narrative.

[00:03:49] Yeah, it feels that way.

[00:03:51] I mean, we have to be very careful.

[00:03:53] It's one thing in Luke to say, we Christians, and Luke would use that term, we Christians are innocent.

[00:04:00] Okay, fair enough.

[00:04:01] You know, you can use your own best defense of yourself, show your best side.

[00:04:06] That's fair enough.

[00:04:07] But be very careful what you say about other people.

[00:04:11] I'll give you an example.

[00:04:13] There's that famous scene of Paul escaping from Damascus over the wall.

[00:04:19] We were in Damascus, Sarah and I, in 2010.

[00:04:22] About the last summer, you could get in there without a flak jacket.

[00:04:27] And they'll show you the gate.

[00:04:28] They'll show you the place where Paul came out over the wall, the Bab-Kisan.

[00:04:33] So we have this story.

[00:04:35] Now, Paul says, they had to let me out over the gate because the Nabataeans were guarding the gate to arrest me.

[00:04:45] That makes absolute good sense.

[00:04:48] The year is probably 36.

[00:04:49] And Aretas IV, king of the Nabataeans, is pushing north.

[00:04:53] And Paul's in trouble.

[00:04:55] Okay, fair enough.

[00:04:56] Now, look how Luke has the same story.

[00:04:59] So Luke knows stuff.

[00:05:01] He knows that story.

[00:05:02] Paul has it in 2 Corinthians.

[00:05:04] And Luke has it, of course, in the Acts.

[00:05:06] And he says, the Jews were guarding the gate to kill me.

[00:05:12] To kill Paul, sorry.

[00:05:14] Now, okay, I don't think that's true.

[00:05:20] I don't think the Jews in the first century guarded the gates of an Arab city or that the Romans, who had their own idea about monopolizing executions, would let them execute him.

[00:05:32] Now, a lynch mob might happen, but if you plan to execute him, you better make certain the Romans weren't around and get it done very quietly.

[00:05:40] So anyway, I look at those two stories.

[00:05:44] And I will say of the first one, I think that's right.

[00:05:49] The Nabataeans in 36, that makes sense to me.

[00:05:52] That's why he's up there.

[00:05:53] He's already fighting in Philip's territory.

[00:05:56] So Aretas IV is taking over the north side or the east side of the Jordan.

[00:06:01] Okay, that all makes good historical sense.

[00:06:04] The Jews, no.

[00:06:05] That's part of Luke's, what term do I say?

[00:06:12] I'm going to say it's libel.

[00:06:15] That the only problems are Jews rioting.

[00:06:18] Now, Paul may bring on some riots for all I know.

[00:06:21] I mean, I think that's probably true.

[00:06:24] But, you know, if I was a Roman looking at this, I would be trying to say, well, my city was peaceful.

[00:06:31] Jews have been living there for centuries.

[00:06:34] They weren't rioting.

[00:06:35] All of a sudden, this guy, Paul, was in there.

[00:06:38] And we start having riots.

[00:06:40] Who do I think is guilty?

[00:06:43] I'm going to go for Paul.

[00:06:45] I'm not going to say, well, they shouldn't have rioted.

[00:06:47] They should have let freedom of speech.

[00:06:50] No.

[00:06:52] So, this perfect storm of innocence, as I call it, is not the way Rome sees it.

[00:06:59] It may be fair enough from your point of view.

[00:07:01] You're not using violence.

[00:07:06] But Rome crucified Jesus.

[00:07:08] Rome crucified, I didn't crucify, executed Paul.

[00:07:11] We don't know how, but he executed Paul.

[00:07:12] So, yeah, Rome got the message.

[00:07:16] These people are not violent revolutionaries.

[00:07:19] We crucify a lot more of them.

[00:07:21] But they are nonviolent resistors.

[00:07:25] They're what you and I might call activists.

[00:07:30] Rome allowed talk.

[00:07:32] It didn't allow violence.

[00:07:35] Activists were in the middle.

[00:07:36] And Rome's solution to an activist was you crucify the leader.

[00:07:42] If there's a movement and it's not violent, then what you do is you crucify the leader and that'll finish them.

[00:07:49] Yeah.

[00:07:50] And if they're still at it, then you crucify the next leader.

[00:07:52] You don't waste crucifixion on nonviolent resistance.

[00:07:57] Just go for the leader.

[00:07:58] And that was Roman policy.

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:02] And I think that's something you mentioned in, I believe, in your last book.

[00:08:06] But that's what's so curious about the movement of Christianity is the fact that, you know,

[00:08:12] typically that would end it right there, this movement.

[00:08:16] Or the next person would step up, which just typically would have been, in this case, James.

[00:08:22] But that's not what happened either.

[00:08:24] So it kind of, you know, it kind of bucks against tradition here in many ways.

[00:08:29] Yes.

[00:08:30] It's, if, when you read, and we should read, I mentioned Josephus' account at the end of the 90s and Tacitus in the 110s or so, at the beginning of the second century.

[00:08:40] Both of them have to explain there was this Christ.

[00:08:43] He started a movement over there.

[00:08:45] We executed him.

[00:08:46] Then they have to explain.

[00:08:48] Well, why are they still around?

[00:08:51] You guys know that the point of an execution of a leader is that finishes the movement.

[00:08:57] Josephus, who is kind of delicate, shall I say, or prudent, says, well, those who followed him still loved him.

[00:09:05] Okay.

[00:09:06] And Tacitus, who cannot write without a sneer on his pen, shall we say, says, well, it was a disease.

[00:09:13] A disease spreads.

[00:09:15] And so it comes to Rome where everything rotten arrives eventually.

[00:09:19] Okay, Tacitus, but you have to admit it didn't stop.

[00:09:23] It spread and is now in Rome.

[00:09:27] So, yes, that's what you have to really explain, that despite executing the leader, and Paul is terribly important in this because Paul writes.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] Paul gets the stuff in print in the 50s.

[00:09:43] And once it gets in print, unless you get rid of it, burn the books.

[00:09:48] Then he's going to be there.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:52] So you've talked about, obviously, some of the complications with understanding who Paul truly was and what lens to kind of see him through.

[00:10:02] You know, because I think it's safe to say that modern days, people either love Paul or they can't stand Paul.

[00:10:08] You know, it's kind of, there's no middle ground there.

[00:10:10] And so, you know, obviously, we've discussed some of the issues with some of the perhaps creative writing, some of the letters that may not have been authored by him.

[00:10:22] Talk about, like, some of the other issue, too, obviously, would be, you know, specific to the letters that were written.

[00:10:28] It would be sort of almost like only seeing one side of an email, you know.

[00:10:33] And so there's some complications with that as well.

[00:10:37] And talk about that a little bit.

[00:10:38] Yeah.

[00:10:39] I would say, apart from everything else, that's the hardest thing about Paul.

[00:10:43] We're reading a letter.

[00:10:44] And what you've just said, we're reading somebody else's mail.

[00:10:48] Now, the Corinthians know exactly what's going on.

[00:10:51] That's why he has to keep writing letters to them.

[00:10:53] They know exactly what he's saying and they don't like it.

[00:10:55] We're not, we have to turn the letter into a story, which means we have to imagine if Paul said this, they must have said that.

[00:11:06] And that's very delicate stuff because maybe Paul's coming on much harder than what they said or much gentler.

[00:11:13] But that's what you have to do.

[00:11:15] If you picked up a letter, an ancient letter, some time ago I was given a gift of a Bible, one of those huge family Bibles from 1880.

[00:11:26] And there was a letter inside it.

[00:11:29] And I'm trying to read the letter and understand it.

[00:11:32] It's not a commentary on the Bible.

[00:11:33] It's just a chat about somebody.

[00:11:37] I can't say this is really stupid.

[00:11:39] It's not stupid.

[00:11:40] I can't understand it because I'm reading somebody else's mail.

[00:11:45] Let's say it's said, let's suppose I'm making this up.

[00:11:50] Dear Mary, John is home now.

[00:11:52] Okay, now I started making that into a story.

[00:11:55] Okay, so John was away.

[00:11:56] I don't know where he was.

[00:11:57] Was he in the hospital or just, you know, another country?

[00:12:01] And he's feeling much better.

[00:12:02] Okay, I'm getting more stuff.

[00:12:03] I'm making the story.

[00:12:04] So, yeah, I was not able to visit him at all when he was in prison.

[00:12:10] Ooh, ooh.

[00:12:11] Now the story is good.

[00:12:13] But at the end, I may not know why he was in prison.

[00:12:17] And that's my problem.

[00:12:19] So let's admit that we're reading Paul's letters.

[00:12:23] And we have to try and make a story out of them very delicately and, you know, and carefully.

[00:12:29] But what we do have, because you've got the seven, and they're written in most cases to different people except for to the Corinthians, we can kind of figure out what makes Paul tick.

[00:12:42] It's almost like, you know, if somebody had never read anything or heard even anything that Martin Luther King wrote or said, they have a general idea of what makes him tick.

[00:12:58] And they have a general idea why somebody might have assassinated him.

[00:13:02] Now, in one sense, that's the most important thing about Paul.

[00:13:05] What's he really up to?

[00:13:07] What makes him tick?

[00:13:09] How does he generate all of this stuff?

[00:13:12] Even if he's just answering a small little question, he's doing it from his basic position.

[00:13:19] So I think what we have to try and do with Paul is find out, kind of, what's his basic position?

[00:13:27] What's going on?

[00:13:29] And that's kind of what I did by calling Paul the Pharisee.

[00:13:34] Not just Paul the Jew, which of course is absolutely right.

[00:13:37] But that's too general.

[00:13:40] He's a Pharisee.

[00:13:42] So it's by exploring what it means for Paul to be a Pharisee that I think you can get into the heart of Paul.

[00:13:49] That you can hear the heartbeat of Paul, as it were.

[00:13:55] Yeah.

[00:13:55] One of the, I think, more interesting parts of the book, too, is you talk about, you look at specific examples and how Paul would have viewed these issues as a way to kind of understand Paul a little bit better.

[00:14:09] And so you talk about sort of the references to ascension and resurrection and the difference between the two and how they may have been used or viewed in that time.

[00:14:20] So talk about that a little bit, because I think that was absolutely fascinating.

[00:14:24] And let me do what I always do.

[00:14:26] Whenever I started, today somebody mentioned resurrection and might immediately say, well, I don't think it really happened.

[00:14:34] Wait a minute.

[00:14:35] Could we hold everything for a moment?

[00:14:38] In the first century, in the year, let's put a year on it, the year 30, when a Jew, any Jew, used the term ascension, apotheosis if they're using Greek, or resurrection, which is a different word completely, anastasis.

[00:15:00] Anastasis.

[00:15:01] What did they mean by it?

[00:15:03] You know, I don't ask if they believed in it or not, if they thought it was rubbish.

[00:15:08] But what did they mean by it?

[00:15:10] So let me be very, very clear.

[00:15:12] I consider these two powerful metaphors.

[00:15:18] And apotheosis, our ascension, was kind of the wallpaper of the Mediterranean world.

[00:15:26] Romans, Greeks, Jews believed, believed, accepted it.

[00:15:31] I don't even know if it was faith so much as acceptance.

[00:15:34] That certain human beings were so important to the human race that on their death, they were taken up to the gods.

[00:15:44] They were taken up among the gods.

[00:15:45] They ascended to the gods.

[00:15:47] For example, Romulus, who had founded the Roman people, was taken up to the gods.

[00:15:54] He wasn't allowed.

[00:15:55] Now, if you said, but we found his body?

[00:15:58] We think we know where his body is?

[00:15:59] They'd have said, yo, get a life.

[00:16:02] Get a life.

[00:16:03] We're talking about his spirit.

[00:16:06] And then if you said to them, yeah, but, you know, was there a body involved?

[00:16:10] Otherwise, how would you know Romulus?

[00:16:14] They would have said, of course they had a body.

[00:16:17] But it was an appropriate body to their being.

[00:16:21] You know, if you were reading Virgil and Aeneas went down to Hades and had a chat with his father and Jesus,

[00:16:30] and you said, well, how did he recognize him?

[00:16:35] Again, the same answer.

[00:16:36] Get a life.

[00:16:37] They'd have said, of course there was a body-like appearance.

[00:16:42] And if you said, well, could he shake hands with him?

[00:16:44] They probably would have said he could do whatever the gods wanted them to do.

[00:16:52] Anyway, so that was ascension.

[00:16:55] Now, here's the huge surprise.

[00:16:58] On Easter Sunday, let's go literally for the moment,

[00:17:03] I think the closest followers of Jesus had visions of him.

[00:17:08] I think that's a fact, actually.

[00:17:10] Now, you can explain visions any way you want, but they're not hallucinations.

[00:17:13] Because you have a hallucination, you don't know you're having a hallucination.

[00:17:18] If you've seen that magnificent movie, The Beautiful Mind, he didn't know he was having a hallucination.

[00:17:24] Neither did most of the audience until they sprung it on you.

[00:17:27] We were all taking it in.

[00:17:29] Yeah, he's working for the CIA.

[00:17:31] A vision, you know you've had a vision.

[00:17:33] That's the difference.

[00:17:35] I've had a vision.

[00:17:36] And you may want to do what the vision said, but that's...

[00:17:40] So visions are valid.

[00:17:41] They can be dated.

[00:17:42] They happen.

[00:17:43] And I'm convinced they happened.

[00:17:45] And I'm not surprised either, because they do happen.

[00:17:49] Now, how are you going to interpret the vision?

[00:17:51] That's interpretation.

[00:17:55] That's interpretation.

[00:17:58] I could interpret it as an ascension.

[00:18:00] Then Jesus is with God.

[00:18:02] Just like those Romans claim for Augustus.

[00:18:07] Our Jesus is with God.

[00:18:09] Then you might say, well, so what?

[00:18:11] Well, then we should really do what he said.

[00:18:14] Okay.

[00:18:15] What did he say?

[00:18:16] You know, you could...

[00:18:17] That would be one whole way of inventing Christianity, to put it bluntly.

[00:18:22] Or you could say, well, he's with God.

[00:18:24] He's gone, so we can do whatever we want.

[00:18:28] The other totally different metaphor is resurrection.

[00:18:37] Resurrection is not the personal privilege of some very important person, a Jesus or an Augustus,

[00:18:46] who's done something of great importance for the human race.

[00:18:49] That's the job description for an ascension.

[00:18:52] This is a Pharisaic belief in the first century, and it is about cosmic justice.

[00:19:02] It's about justice for the whole human race, not just for me or you or Romulus or Jesus or Augustus or Elijah or, you know,

[00:19:12] anyone who in tradition has taken up to God or the gods.

[00:19:17] So now, wait a minute.

[00:19:20] If you have lived, as Jews had, under empires, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans,

[00:19:30] you could say, where is the justice of God?

[00:19:33] I mean, we claim God created the world in our faith, and we claim that God is just, and clearly the world ain't.

[00:19:42] So where's justice?

[00:19:44] Don't tell me about this good person or that good person.

[00:19:48] Tell me about everyone who's ever lived.

[00:19:51] Is there cosmic justice?

[00:19:53] This is now we're getting very close to the heart of Paul.

[00:19:57] The Pharisees believed in cosmic justice, and I suspect that's what made them so popular with the ordinary persons.

[00:20:03] The Sadducees would have said, eh, the world's a very just place.

[00:20:07] We're doing fine.

[00:20:08] We're collaborating with the Romans and everything is fine.

[00:20:12] Romans are running a just world.

[00:20:15] The Essene's Anakumran might have said, we've given up on this world, retiring into the desert.

[00:20:22] The Pharisees, I think, represented the center.

[00:20:25] And they said, there is, there is, there is going to be a cosmic justice.

[00:20:31] That's their faith.

[00:20:32] At the end of time, now watch it, end of time.

[00:20:35] Then we can start debating when that is.

[00:20:37] At the end of time, there will be a resurrection of everyone who's ever lived.

[00:20:42] Everyone.

[00:20:44] And they'll stand before God, everyone, and be judged.

[00:20:48] And then they'll go off to heaven or hell.

[00:20:50] Now, you say, well, that's at the end of time.

[00:20:54] So, you know, fine, fine, fine, whatever.

[00:20:56] Let's forget about it, except for nightmares.

[00:21:00] But then here's what Paul says.

[00:21:03] Now, he's a Pharisee.

[00:21:04] He was a Pharisee long before he ever heard of Jesus.

[00:21:07] That's why he persecuted.

[00:21:09] He believed all that.

[00:21:10] That's part of the Pharisaic faith.

[00:21:15] But now he's a Messianic Christic Pharisee.

[00:21:18] I'm not saying Christian.

[00:21:19] Using the word Christique, because that means the same as Messianic.

[00:21:24] Just Anglicized Hebrew, Aramaic, or Anglicized Greek.

[00:21:29] So he's a Messianic Christic Pharisee.

[00:21:33] He hasn't lost his Phariseeism.

[00:21:35] That's why my book is called Paul the Pharisee.

[00:21:38] He hasn't given up on the general resurrection.

[00:21:40] But he makes this startling claim in 1 Corinthians.

[00:21:45] 1 Corinthians 15.

[00:21:48] It has begun already.

[00:21:52] What?

[00:21:54] The general resurrection at the end of time has begun with Jesus.

[00:21:59] Now, if I was a Pharisee, a fellow Pharisee, I would say, come on, Paul.

[00:22:05] There's no such thing as a resurrection of an individual.

[00:22:07] Resurrection is for everyone.

[00:22:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, Paul would have said.

[00:22:10] I know that.

[00:22:11] I know that.

[00:22:12] But as he argues in 1 Corinthians, the general resurrection, which he calls Anastasis Necron.

[00:22:19] That's plural.

[00:22:21] So resurrection of the dead ones.

[00:22:25] So that's a great big resurrection.

[00:22:27] Has already begun with Jesus.

[00:22:29] Now, you know, the proper answer to that is, what?

[00:22:37] So God's great cleanup of the world, God's justification of the world has already begun.

[00:22:47] Get with the program, says Paul.

[00:22:48] You might say, well, if we don't get with the program, will God still do it?

[00:22:53] Is God going to do it by God's own self?

[00:22:56] Paul would have said, no.

[00:22:58] No.

[00:22:59] You're called to do it with God.

[00:23:03] Now, Paul is talking good old classic theism.

[00:23:07] That's fine.

[00:23:07] I'm accepting that for the moment.

[00:23:11] You don't do it without God.

[00:23:13] You don't do it by yourself, Paul says.

[00:23:15] And in a big thing, God's not going to do it for you.

[00:23:18] And that's simply good covenantal thinking because covenant is always between two people.

[00:23:25] So Paul the Pharisee, the beating heart of Paul, is that the great justification of the world has already begun with Jesus.

[00:23:38] And if you say, well, what if we don't cooperate?

[00:23:42] Then Paul would have said, but if the resurrection has begun, then the judgment has begun.

[00:23:52] Right, Paul?

[00:23:54] Then heaven and hell are kind of already operational and open for business right now.

[00:24:03] Now, when I hear Paul say that and I watch the evening news, that's starting to make awful sense.

[00:24:13] So you mean either the world will be a just place or we will destroy ourselves.

[00:24:24] So we can't say, well, it all depends on whether God will or will not punish us.

[00:24:28] Maybe there's forgiveness.

[00:24:30] Maybe there's mercy and we'll get away with it.

[00:24:33] But if we're operating under evolution, with or without theism, I'm not going to argue that.

[00:24:40] It doesn't change anything.

[00:24:42] We do know that gravity works the same way for theists and atheists.

[00:24:47] And it also works the same way for somebody who couldn't care a hoot about either of them.

[00:24:52] Just try it anytime you want.

[00:24:54] Gravity is the glue of the universe, whether we like it or not.

[00:24:58] And if you want to think that God runs it personally for every single person and every single, fine, fine.

[00:25:03] But it's still there.

[00:25:06] So that's really the getting very close to the heart of Paul and why I insist on Paul the Pharisee.

[00:25:15] Because he remains a Pharisee, but now a Messianic Christic Pharisee.

[00:25:22] And he's trying to imagine.

[00:25:24] And he is trying to imagine.

[00:25:26] And grope his way towards it.

[00:25:30] Isaiah, what does it mean then that the general judgment of the world is already operational, has already begun?

[00:25:38] Some say, well, I don't see it.

[00:25:40] Where is it?

[00:25:41] I don't see any God sitting on a throne, you know.

[00:25:45] Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah.

[00:25:47] But think about it.

[00:25:49] And that's, I think, why people can say, Paul is terribly important for the 21st century.

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[00:26:59] Yeah, what's interesting is that, you know, part of my takeaway from this is that also even Paul is not unaffected by the ways in which he, you know, his experience, his own personal experiences and his own personal sort of agenda.

[00:27:18] And, you know, so even Paul and the way that he views the path forward is influenced by, you know, his past and those types of things.

[00:27:27] And so when we talk about the ways in which we read, you know, even read the Bible, you know, a lot of times on the podcast we've talked about the fact that, you know, the place where you're born and your lived experience certainly has an impact in the way that you read the Bible.

[00:27:46] And so even for Paul, it's interesting that even one of our one of the largest figures in all of Christianity was clearly influenced by, you know, his his life as a Pharisee.

[00:27:58] And the things that he was experiencing in the time with the Roman Empire and that sort of thing and having to combat the things that he was dealing with that were unique to him at that time that we may not be experiencing today.

[00:28:11] But, you know, I mean, you know, my own experience, honestly, has been more affected by what I've done seen than by sitting in the study and pondering.

[00:28:25] I mean, I had no idea, interest in Eastern Christianity's anastasis.

[00:28:33] I don't even knew it.

[00:28:35] You know, you might have seen the images.

[00:28:38] Yeah, fine.

[00:28:39] It took 18 years of traveling all the way across from Spain to Syria and Russia to Egypt.

[00:28:48] See, this is all over.

[00:28:50] It's not just in one place.

[00:28:52] It is Eastern Christianity and it's radically different from ours.

[00:28:56] And it's been there.

[00:28:57] Now, the same thing in a way.

[00:29:00] I grew up in Ireland.

[00:29:02] I didn't run into biblical fundamentalism.

[00:29:05] I just absolutely not on my radar.

[00:29:09] What ended my career as a monk and a priest was papal fundamentalism.

[00:29:18] In 1968, I went on television in Chicago and I said basically that the Pope, Paul II, was simply wrong, bluntly about condoms.

[00:29:33] The Insectical Humana Vitae had just come out in, I'm going to say maybe July of 68.

[00:29:39] They asked me on television, the show, there was going to be a doctor on there as well.

[00:29:46] I mean, a medical doctor.

[00:29:48] And we were supposed to debate and he was going to debate that rhythm was fine and the Pope was right.

[00:29:52] And I was going to say, with all due respects, the Pope was wrong.

[00:29:58] That did it.

[00:29:59] It had nothing to do with the Bible or anything else.

[00:30:03] The Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago said, give me one week.

[00:30:06] Why crossings shouldn't be tossed out of the diocese?

[00:30:09] I wasn't, but that was the way things happened.

[00:30:12] But I left.

[00:30:13] I decided, okay, I escaped that one.

[00:30:16] I'm out of here.

[00:30:17] So it was papal fundamentalism.

[00:30:19] I had to learn, when I came to this country, I was 17, I had to learn biblical fundamentalism.

[00:30:26] That's what some people take all of this stuff literally.

[00:30:30] And I'd had five years of a classical education from when I was 11 to when I was 16 in a classical boarding school.

[00:30:39] I had five years of Greek and five years of Latin.

[00:30:41] So I could Homer and all of that stuff in early.

[00:30:45] You know, I don't want to let down.

[00:30:47] I knew what was going on.

[00:30:48] I was just working on conjugations and trying to not get hit by the teacher or not.

[00:30:53] When the time came and I read the Bible, oh, I've heard this sort of stuff before.

[00:31:00] I've heard stories about gods and, you know, and all the rest of it.

[00:31:05] I've read Homer.

[00:31:06] And when we read it, we weren't saying, you're taught by priests, but nobody said, don't you guys believe in this?

[00:31:13] No, we read about the gods stalking the plains of Troy, you know, interfering on this side and the other side.

[00:31:21] We took it all, like we took cowboy stories, I think, in the cinema.

[00:31:27] They had some relation to reality, but they were always good stories.

[00:31:31] Now, along comes a time when I start to read the Bible.

[00:31:37] I, there may be more important stories, but I never had, I never really had biblical fundamentalism I had to fight my way out of.

[00:31:47] And I recognize that that can be terribly traumatic for people.

[00:31:51] I got out of papal fundamentalism without particularly being hurt.

[00:31:55] I just left the monastery and went to a university.

[00:31:58] Now, that could have been traumatic because I was a biblical scholar and I loved it.

[00:32:04] And it was my superiors in the monastery that had made me a biblical scholar.

[00:32:10] And it taught me how to think critically.

[00:32:13] So I simply applied the same criticism to the Pope that I did to the Bible.

[00:32:17] I read what the Pope said very carefully, but I don't believe it.

[00:32:21] It's wrong.

[00:32:24] That papal fundamentalism doesn't allow that anymore.

[00:32:28] It's difficult.

[00:32:28] So in one sense, my own, I don't want to say upbringing, just where I was and how I lived has definitely formed what I'm doing.

[00:32:40] I'm utterly aware of it.

[00:32:42] And quite frankly, grateful for it.

[00:32:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:48] And so kind of tying it all back together, because I realize we're running short on time here.

[00:32:53] You know, the ways in which we understand Paul and everything that we've kind of discussed and going back to sort of the artwork and the depictions that you saw that sort of kicked off this entire project.

[00:33:06] You know, what are some final thoughts on how we should sort of understand Paul and ultimately, you know, Paul's attempt to show sort of the greater picture?

[00:33:17] All right.

[00:33:19] The greater picture for Paul, if I could go into his mind, if I can try it for a moment.

[00:33:25] Here's what seared Paul's soul, what empowered his vision, what generated his mission as I see it.

[00:33:33] Now, speaking in his language, here's the question Paul had.

[00:33:39] God knew from all eternity that when the Messiah came, he would be executed.

[00:33:48] Now, let it go in Paul's language.

[00:33:51] Why then, says Paul, did God send the Messiah precisely at that time?

[00:33:59] Now, that's never a question I asked, honestly.

[00:34:02] It's not a question.

[00:34:03] I don't think that way.

[00:34:03] But I'm convinced that when Paul talks about the mystery of God, the mystery that was hidden from all eternity and the crucifixion of Jesus, which the leaders of this world, the archontists, would not have done because otherwise they would have.

[00:34:20] They would not have.

[00:34:22] Excuse me.

[00:34:22] Would not have.

[00:34:23] The leaders of this world did not know this mystery.

[00:34:26] Otherwise, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[00:34:29] Paul's great answer.

[00:34:32] God allowed the Messiah to be executed.

[00:34:36] Allowed.

[00:34:37] I mean, Paul is talking anthropomorphic.

[00:34:39] Allowed, decreed, decided.

[00:34:43] To reveal to us, to the nations, the savagery of human civilization.

[00:34:53] It's like holding a mirror up to civilization and say, look, people.

[00:34:58] I, God, sent you the Messiah.

[00:35:03] And what did you do?

[00:35:04] You crucified him.

[00:35:06] So for Paul, the crucifixion of Jesus as Messiah now, as Messiah,

[00:35:12] is the revelation from God of Rome's law and order, vaunted justice and peace is hollow.

[00:35:26] And that the criticism is not just Rome.

[00:35:28] It's not just Roman civilization as Roman, but Roman civilization as civilized.

[00:35:35] As civilization.

[00:35:36] And therefore, the corresponding with that, like the second, let me say, the other side of a divine coin,

[00:35:44] is that God has therefore already established resurrection and process.

[00:35:49] I think that's as clear as I can see the very core of Paul.

[00:35:55] You know, what's the powerhouse in there that keeps him going?

[00:35:59] Writing letters, going, going, going.

[00:36:02] No matter what you say, he has some kind of an answer for you.

[00:36:06] I think that's what starts him off.

[00:36:08] He talks about from all eternity.

[00:36:11] That's his term.

[00:36:12] The mystery hidden in the wisdom of God, he says.

[00:36:16] He says, why on earth did God allow that to happen?

[00:36:20] And he wouldn't say allow.

[00:36:21] He might have said decide, decreed.

[00:36:24] I don't know what verb he would have used.

[00:36:27] So that's the final thing that Paul leaves us to ponder.

[00:36:31] And then to generate a world from.

[00:36:37] That's amazing.

[00:36:38] And what a great place to end.

[00:36:40] Anytime you come on, I feel like I'm getting a free education and I should be paying for this.

[00:36:44] Thank you very much.

[00:36:46] Yes.

[00:36:47] Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:36:48] I will have the links in the show notes.

[00:36:50] Folks, go check out the book.

[00:36:53] I'm assuming that it will have beautifully illustrated photos in it, just like the last one.

[00:36:58] The only photograph is on the cover.

[00:37:00] To be honest with you, the last one, the last one costs so much that my editor almost shot me.

[00:37:06] I will say this about people.

[00:37:08] The best way to read the last one is get an app on your computer, a Kindle app on your computer, and get the book.

[00:37:16] Look at it on a computer, not on a cell phone.

[00:37:21] On a computer where you can blow it up and see the images as big as you want.

[00:37:25] Or the way Sarah and I did it when we were writing it, we connected our computers to a big television monitor.

[00:37:32] And we could see it then, because otherwise there's these tiny little pictures.

[00:37:35] You know, we could blow them up this high.

[00:37:37] So I wouldn't try and get the book in any case, but it's so expensive it's out of print probably already.

[00:37:44] Kindle is still there.

[00:37:45] Yeah, go get the Kindle version then, because I've got the hardbound copy.

[00:37:50] The pictures in that are absolutely stunning.

[00:37:53] But obviously, if you can get it to where you can expand the pictures, that's the way to go.

[00:37:58] So go out and grab the book.

[00:38:00] Grab this one.

[00:38:01] Again, the two complement each other beautifully.

[00:38:03] And thank you so much again for coming on.

[00:38:05] Thank you, John.

[00:40:47] Thank you, John.

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