Ep. 199 - Dr. Thomas Jay Oord "A Modern Inquisition"

[00:00:00] Oh, when did we lose our way?

[00:00:36] And writing on love, open and relational theology, science and religion, evil and power, and the implications of freedom and relationships for transformation.

[00:00:46] This week, though, I bring him on to talk about his recent church trial.

[00:00:50] I won't get too much into it here because we go into great depth during the interview, but the gist of it is that Tom has been very vocal throughout the years on his personal stance in terms of being fully affirming of the LGBTQ plus community.

[00:01:02] And he's also been very vocal about the Church of the Nazarene, of which he was a part of, changing their official stance to be affirming as well.

[00:01:10] So, after years of making some noise on the subject, he was ultimately brought in to stand trial for his position.

[00:01:16] I personally commend him for standing strong and trying his best to make change within the organization rather than leave it entirely.

[00:01:24] I think it's much more difficult, especially from a personal perspective, to stand in the thick of it for something that you know is right and the right thing to do in taking a beating anyway.

[00:01:33] So, anyway, all the love to Tom and his family, and without further ado, here's Thomas freaking Ord.

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[00:29:08] say, however, that once the trial came and that day happened and I made my case and all that,

[00:29:16] had witnesses and so on, I was surprised that they not only took my ordination, but they also took

[00:29:24] my membership. So they defrocked me and excommunicated me, as you might say.

[00:29:29] That was, I thought that was harsher than I expected.

[00:29:34] Well, yeah. And for the layperson out there, explain what that means, what kind of impact that has.

[00:29:42] So in a lot of denominations, in mine in particular, members are expected to have a

[00:29:49] particular level of involvement and buy-in, whereas the pastors, the ordained elders,

[00:29:55] they're held to a higher standard. And if you have a disagreement on something,

[00:30:00] you know, they might take away a pastor's credentials, but they wouldn't kick them out

[00:30:05] of the church, even if it was some sort of sexual discretion that we were talking about earlier.

[00:30:10] But in my case, I think I am the very first who's ever lost his credentials and membership over a

[00:30:17] theological issue.

[00:30:20] That's, yeah, that is pretty extreme. So you mentioned briefly one of the other individuals

[00:30:27] who had contributed towards the book of essays. That was one of the questions I had for you is,

[00:30:33] you know, obviously there were a lot of other people who contributed, you know, you mentioned

[00:30:37] scholars and others, you know, leading up to this and even after your trial, have they gone over,

[00:30:46] gone after with the same fervor, the rest of the individuals who kind of publicly put it out

[00:30:52] that they are supportive of inclusion?

[00:30:54] There's been some moves made. As far as I know, no one's been charged officially,

[00:31:01] but there are lots of quote conversations happening with those people. I will be surprised if there are

[00:31:11] not more credentials taken or people pushed out over this. I think that's probably inevitable.

[00:31:19] But I also suspect that my case might be used as a kind of a warning to all those people. Like,

[00:31:28] look what we did to him, you know. So if you're going to mouth off, then you might be next kind

[00:31:33] of a thing.

[00:31:34] Yeah, it very much feels like a modern inquisition of sorts, where, you know, they're coming and

[00:31:40] rooting out these folks that they view as troublemakers and who aren't, you know, standing in line with

[00:31:47] the company, you know, the company line, so to speak.

[00:31:52] Yeah, it is. And, you know, the positive spin on it is that the Church of the Nazarene is taking its

[00:32:02] beliefs seriously. And I'm for that. I just think full queer inclusion is a more loving belief than

[00:32:10] the current one. And one of the things I did in my trial is I had several witnesses, about half a

[00:32:19] dozen or so, and most of them were professional, trained, eminent theologians in the tradition

[00:32:27] coming in to argue on my behalf. And the people on the jury were not professional, trained

[00:32:34] theologians. And in fact, there was a motion prior to the trial that said that I and my witnesses

[00:32:40] could not question the issue of whether or not the statement on human sexuality should be considered

[00:32:46] doctrine. So here I am being tried for teaching against the doctrines of the Church. And yet I'm not

[00:32:55] supposed to question whether or not this particular statement is a doctrine. And I'm not supposed to let

[00:33:00] my witnesses who are professional doctors of the Church talk about doctrine. It just makes no sense

[00:33:07] at all. I think it goes to show that this issue is not really primarily a theological one for most

[00:33:14] people. It's a cultural and aesthetic one. Yeah, and one of the interesting points that was brought up,

[00:33:21] like I said, in some of the other interviews that I've done on this topic, is that it also is very much

[00:33:27] heavily a financial one as well. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I was told flat out that, you know, a pastor who

[00:33:36] was kind of in a similar circumstance to yours had published a book and some papers on it and was

[00:33:42] trying to get the denomination to move towards being more inclusive, was told that, look, you know,

[00:33:48] if you light this fuse, I have six-figure donors who will hold off their donations. And so it also feels

[00:33:56] very much like, not only is it a cultural thing, but also very much a financial thing. I mean,

[00:34:01] churches these days, you know, we've all seen the statistics are hurting a lot of them, you know,

[00:34:08] and struggling to survive. Right. And if you look at the membership levels in the U.S.,

[00:34:17] United States Church of Nazarene, they have been declining for decades and increasingly so in the last

[00:34:23] decade. And the Methodists, you know, as you said earlier, just went through a split. And the more

[00:34:33] conservative group is called the General Methodist Council or anyway, the GMC. Global, Global

[00:34:41] Methodist, that's what it is. They, of course, might be pretty attractive to a conservative Nazarene if he

[00:34:49] thought or she thought the Church of Nazarene was, quote, going too liberal and thinking like Ord. So if

[00:34:57] you're a leader in the Church of Nazarene and you don't want your people to leave to go to the more

[00:35:02] conservative Methodist strand, you might, as a calculation, think, you know, we've got to handle this

[00:35:08] more liberal stream quickly and stop that potential bleeding.

[00:35:13] Yeah, it's a very interesting issue in regards to why people won't even have the conversation. I mean,

[00:35:22] we've seen more instances of this outside of the LGBTQ plus issue, but there seems to be a lack of

[00:35:28] of a space for critical thinking and just and conversation, which kind of goes back to what

[00:35:35] you and I were talking about before we started recording when it comes to Judaism and there just

[00:35:40] being a sort of built-in mechanism for having different interpretations and that being an okay

[00:35:46] thing. But Christianity seems to have really sort of left the brain at the door, so to speak, in a lot

[00:35:52] of ways. And so what does that say about the fact that you couldn't even have a conversation really

[00:35:58] about why your views had changed? That wasn't even, you didn't even have an opportunity to do that.

[00:36:05] It was immediately like, nope.

[00:36:09] Well, in terms of the comparison to Judaism, Protestants have generally had a more rigid approach

[00:36:16] to Scripture, thinking that it has a plain reading. In fact, some even think the Bible is inerrant. But

[00:36:22] even if you don't think it's inerrant, a lot of folks have thought, look, if you just read the Bible,

[00:36:27] you're going to easily see what it means. And for that reason, when someone thinks about Scripture

[00:36:33] differently than you, then you start to question their morality or their intelligence or whatever.

[00:36:38] And that's why you see in Protestantism all kinds of different strands and breakups and all that sort

[00:36:45] of thing. There's differences in Judaism too, but it's not nearly as extreme as it is in the Protestant

[00:36:52] strand of Christianity. And I think in the Church of Nazarene, when it comes to having real conversations,

[00:36:58] I think the leadership knows that those kinds of conversations are hard to have. And I think that's

[00:37:08] right. They are hard. I tend to think that conservatives have a more difficult time with

[00:37:13] them than progressives, but even some progressives are not very generous and charitable in the way they

[00:37:20] deal with their opponents. So if your goal is to make sure that you stamp out any potential

[00:37:29] disruption or disagreement or bad feelings or misunderstandings, then you want to keep the

[00:37:35] status quo by keeping conversations out, keeping things silent. And I think that's the strategy.

[00:37:42] It may work in the short run, but it kills you in the long run. In fact, cowing to the rich donors who

[00:37:52] are wealthy and old is a good strategy in the short run, but your youth are walking out the back door.

[00:37:59] The demographic statistics say that not only the Church of Nazarene, but most religious organizations,

[00:38:05] young people think about queer matters like I do. The majority do. And so they're losing those folks.

[00:38:13] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my dad as a retired Lutheran pastor, towards the end of his career,

[00:38:19] had not one but two, what they call two-point parishes. Basically meaning we had two churches,

[00:38:26] neither one could support a full-time minister. And so they would split the salary and he would go back

[00:38:32] and forth between the two. And it's just, you walk in there and it's very much, that's very much the

[00:38:37] case. There's very little in the way of youth. It's mostly older folks who are still hanging in

[00:38:43] there who just don't want the Church to die. But then ultimately, eventually, that's exactly what

[00:38:48] happens is once they can't support anymore, it's they sell the building and that's it.

[00:38:54] Yeah. And I got nothing against older people. I got nothing against them using the money that they,

[00:38:59] in the way they think is right. So this is not an anti-ageist sort of rant here, but it is just the

[00:39:08] bare facts of demographics that younger people think differently about the queer issue than older

[00:39:13] people. Generally speaking, obviously we can find exceptions, but generally speaking. And if you're

[00:39:19] a strategist who cares about the future of the Church, then I think you have to take that fact seriously.

[00:39:27] Agreed. So talk about the aftermath. What is next for Thomas J. Ord?

[00:39:34] Yeah. Well, I should say that the stress leading up to the trial was super high in my life and in my

[00:39:46] household. It was not good for my health. And so once the trial occurred, both for me and my wife,

[00:39:57] and she accompanied me at the trial, we both felt like a weight had been lifted off our shoulders.

[00:40:05] Not that there isn't some trauma and some still emotional stuff, but it's nothing like it was

[00:40:10] before the trial. So that's the first thing I should say post-trial. I'm feeling better now than I was,

[00:40:17] John. Secondly, I'm not planning to quickly join another denomination. I may eventually, but

[00:40:27] my goal in this wasn't to flip off the denomination as I walked out the door to another denomination.

[00:40:35] My goal was to try to change the Church of the Nazarene for the better. And so now I'm a nun,

[00:40:42] an N-O-N-E, a nun. I have no religious affiliation at the moment. And maybe that'll change in the future.

[00:40:49] Maybe it won't. I'm fortunate to have a local community, a church that I'm a part of that is

[00:40:55] very supportive. And so that's not going to change. And I'm also fortunate to have friends around the

[00:41:02] world and doctoral students who are a part of my community. So it's not like I'm feeling isolated.

[00:41:09] And I do think that's a big issue. I mean, you run a podcast called The Deconstructionist.

[00:41:15] You know that people who walk away from faith or religious communities for really good reasons,

[00:41:23] and you're happy they did, oftentimes struggle to find another community that can give them some of

[00:41:30] the virtuous goods that they got from their old community. Even though the old community had

[00:41:35] problems and they were right to walk away, it's hard sometimes to find another good community.

[00:41:40] And fortunately for me, I'm feeling pretty good about that.

[00:41:45] Yeah, that's great to hear. That's one of the big things that when Adam and I started this podcast

[00:41:50] over eight years ago talked about is just the need for community. Human beings are meant to be

[00:41:57] communal. And even if it looks differently than it did when you were a part of that religious

[00:42:03] community, just having people around you who support you and listen is such a crucial thing. So

[00:42:09] that makes me very happy to hear that. Before we end, just talk a little bit about, obviously,

[00:42:16] you touched on this a little bit earlier, the whole point of sort of fighting back and going through

[00:42:22] the trial, obviously it took a toll on you. But there was a good reason behind it. And what do you hope

[00:42:29] people gain from the publicity that this trial has gotten and moving forward? What is your hope for

[00:42:40] that? I like that question. Before I answer it, though, I want to make sure I'm clear about something.

[00:42:47] Not everybody has to do what I did when it comes to the queer issue and whatever church or denomination

[00:42:54] they're a part of. It's okay to walk away without going to a trial. In my particular circumstances,

[00:43:02] where I'm at in life, my emotional state, my support system, etc., etc., I was in a position in which I

[00:43:10] felt I could use my platform to try to make a positive difference. But that's not good for everybody.

[00:43:17] And so I don't want to lift myself up as the ideal everybody ought to emulate.

[00:43:25] I went through this trial for a number of reasons. One is I thought that being public about what I was

[00:43:33] doing could be an encouragement to queer people, especially queer Christians. And I'm happy to say that I've

[00:43:42] received hundreds and hundreds of notes from queer people thanking me and who were encouraged. So I feel

[00:43:49] good about meeting that particular goal. I worried a little bit that maybe I didn't want people to see

[00:43:57] me as the straight white guy who comes in on the stallion to rescue the queer people. I was worried that

[00:44:05] I might be seen as the Messiah in that way. And I don't think of myself as that. And fortunately,

[00:44:11] I've got very few comments like that. They've been mostly really positive. The same is true on my

[00:44:19] wanting to encourage allies. Lots and lots of allies have sent me notes. I don't think I achieved my

[00:44:28] goal of changing the denomination, at least in the short term. Maybe it's a step long term that will

[00:44:35] be really important. But I don't think the denomination is, you know, the people in charge are

[00:44:41] thinking, okay, well, I guess we better change our stance on human sexuality now. I think I failed in

[00:44:47] that way. But I felt like not only my platform, but my training and my gifts as a writer and speaker,

[00:44:57] I could provide some language to people who are searching for something that expresses their deep

[00:45:07] intuitions about full affirmation, but they don't have the words to articulate that intuition very well. So I

[00:45:14] felt like I could be a service in that way. I actually think the most helpful, most effective way to get

[00:45:25] people to become fully queer affirming is not necessarily intellectual like I do, but it's

[00:45:33] actually the friendships that people have with queer people. When their son or daughter or cousin or best

[00:45:40] friend or neighbor or parent comes out as queer, that's usually the thing that would get people to

[00:45:47] change their mind, not some articulate argument from a theologian like me. And yet I still think that

[00:45:55] giving language to help people make sense of that, especially the language of love could be a real

[00:46:02] service. And that was another reason why I went through the trial.

[00:46:08] Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think it takes a little of both. You know, I think to humanize

[00:46:13] the people behind the issue, I think is massively important. But I also think it's very important to

[00:46:20] have, as you said, the language behind it. And I think especially when we're talking about,

[00:46:25] as you said, maybe six verses in the entire Bible, where the Bible has much more to say about things

[00:46:31] like divorce than it does potentially homosexuality. You've got to start to ask yourself the question,

[00:46:38] like, are we holding the right stance here? And if it's even in question, then I've always,

[00:46:45] you know, my dad and I talked about this a lot, then you have to default to love, I think. You just have

[00:46:50] to. The Bible is overwhelming in that way. So I really appreciate the work that you've done as

[00:46:57] always. And... Thanks, John.

[00:46:59] Sorry that you had to go through this in order to get here, but, you know, I think what you've done

[00:47:05] has been helpful for a lot of people out there who are, as you said, who are hurting.

[00:47:10] Well, thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. You know, I've been able to talk about it with a few

[00:47:14] other podcasts and every time I do, I get some new insights and some new things. And so just for

[00:47:21] me, it's been good to process it out loud. So thanks. Absolutely. Anytime. Well, thank you so

[00:47:27] much again for coming on and God bless you. Yeah, you too, John.

[00:47:31] God bless you.

[00:47:32] Does she care that I doubt? Does she care that I fear? Something to tell me. God will survive.

[00:48:18] If God has a face, his face must look like yours. Did God? It looks like a... Has a face, her face must look like yours.

[00:50:01] Face like a Tina, an Ahmed or Mildred. A Russ and his husband, Gus and their children. Face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyron. Extra Chrome.