Ep. 193 - Dr. Camden Morgante ”Recovering From Purity Culture” pt. 2

[00:00:10] Welcome to The Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host, John Williamson, and we are back with part two with Dr. Camden Morgante.

[00:00:17] If you haven't listened to part one yet, press pause and go back and listen to the first part.

[00:00:22] If you've already listened to the first part, then enjoy part two. This is the second half of my interview with her.

[00:00:28] Again, great book. Go check it out, Recovering From Purity Culture, Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith.

[00:00:37] Available where all books are found, and we'll have some links in the show notes as well.

[00:00:43] But enjoy the second half, and we'll be back next week with a brand new guest.

[00:00:46] But until then, I give you Dr. Camden Fregan Morgante.

[00:01:00] I want to kind of talk a little bit about, at this point, how does one start the journey of, as you say in the book, reconstructing their sexual ethic?

[00:01:12] I think that's so important, and sometimes my clients will say, like, do I really have to do that? That's a lot of work, and I'm already married. What does it matter?

[00:01:22] And I get that. It is a lot of work, but I argue that it's important because if you have kids, you have to kind of know what to teach them or what you believe in order to, like, what values do I want to pass on to them?

[00:01:36] But then also just for yourself, it's very empowering to reconstruct your sexual ethic, to figure out what you believe and why, and not just because the Bible says so, because my pastor told me, because my parents told me, because this is what a good girl does or a good guy does.

[00:01:51] Like, it's empowering to do that work yourself. And it also helps you be more clear on what choices you want to make if you know what your values are.

[00:02:03] And so, like, later when we talk about shame, you know, like, shame is not resolved by just saying, like, I'm just going to throw this all away and just go do whatever I want.

[00:02:13] Like, shame is resolved by really knowing what our values are and making choices aligned with those values.

[00:02:18] And so, in order to make those choices, you have to know what the values are.

[00:02:21] So, the process that I walk people through of how to reconstruct their sexual ethic is to examine different sources of truth.

[00:02:30] Definitely the Bible can be a source of truth still for Christians, but there are other things like scientific research and your own personal experience that matter too.

[00:02:39] Explore your theology that underlies purity culture, like, or underlies your sexual ethic.

[00:02:44] Like, there's so much more that goes into it than just, like, can you have sex before marriage or not?

[00:02:48] Like, there's just so much more richness to be found in looking at what is your theology of suffering?

[00:02:54] What is your theology of sin and grace and forgiveness?

[00:02:57] What are your beliefs about the purpose of sex and bodies and things like that?

[00:03:03] And then to really identify what your values are, because there's more to a sexual ethic than just what the Bible says.

[00:03:10] It's also your own personal values.

[00:03:13] Like, what kind of relationship do you want to be in that feels safe to you and feels like this is congruent with your values?

[00:03:23] Yeah, so it is a complex process, but something that I hadn't really seen laid out in a lot of other books and resources.

[00:03:30] And I hope that it can feel empowering for people to kind of have guidelines of how to reconstruct their sexual ethic without prescribing what it should be.

[00:03:40] I tried to stay away from that because I felt like readers don't need one more book.

[00:03:44] We don't need one more book telling us what to believe and why and what to do with our bodies.

[00:03:48] Like, we read all of those when we were teenagers.

[00:03:50] Like, we need something now that gives us more of the tools and, like, the steps to kind of follow and some resources to access so that we can think through it ourselves.

[00:04:00] Ah, amen to that.

[00:04:02] Thank you.

[00:04:03] We've run into so many situations where we're like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:04:06] We're not trying to be experts on anything here.

[00:04:08] Like, that's what got us into this mess in the first place.

[00:04:10] Yeah, good point.

[00:04:12] Yeah, we're just trying to create a safe space for us to talk about this and a place where people can go and feel, you know, not feel judged and be able to, you know, express these things and evolve.

[00:04:24] And, you know, so talk about, because I think this is really important and it kind of reminded me of a book I read a while back that I recommend to everyone by Rabbi Jonathan Sachs, who is this brilliant Jewish scholar who wrote a book called Essays on Ethics.

[00:04:41] And he talks about, and you touch on this in your book as well, the difference between shame versus guilt.

[00:04:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:47] I haven't heard of that author, but I've read like Brene Brown and psychologists on shame and guilt.

[00:04:55] But yeah, shame is something that almost everybody coming out of purity culture seems to struggle with.

[00:05:00] And it's really important that we get the distinction between shame and guilt because guilt is I've done something wrong or bad and shame is I am bad or wrong.

[00:05:10] Like there's something inherently wrong about me that I cannot change.

[00:05:14] So guilt can be healthy because it can point us to when our choices aren't aligned with our values and then it can motivate us to make amends and make those changes to our choices.

[00:05:24] But shame just keeps us stuck and also feeling like we have to hide or cover up or isolate ourselves in order to avoid being rejected by our community or social group.

[00:05:37] So knowing the distinction between that can help people figure out like, is this shame that I want to overcome or is this guilt that I really need to deal with head on, face head on?

[00:05:48] But for a lot of my clients, a lot of my community, it's shame.

[00:05:54] It's shame that like sex is dirty or my body is bad or wrong or I'm bad for having sexual desires or something wrong with me or there's something wrong with me for not.

[00:06:05] Like, you know, there's just a lot of shame either way.

[00:06:08] And so being able to accept your sexuality and embrace it, whether you choose to be in a relationship or not or be sexually active or not, like being able to embrace your sexuality as part of you rather than seeing it as something shameful and dirty is important.

[00:06:25] Yeah, it definitely touches on, you know, what I remember reading from Rabbi Sachs, which is, you know, kind of along the same lines where shame kind of being this sort of negative sort of dirty thing versus guilt, which can be in moments sort of that mechanism that prevents us from being horrible people.

[00:06:44] You know, like, you know, if you're starting to feel guilty about something, you know, and you examine the reasons behind it, it could lead you to understanding like, well, maybe I shouldn't do this thing because it has some sort of harmful or negative effect on another person.

[00:06:58] And so like, you know, very different, you know, in terms of like how we view those things and the mechanisms behind how they work.

[00:07:07] So I thought that was interesting.

[00:07:08] Um, one of the things I want you to talk about is, uh, the five characteristics of faithful sexuality and a healthy marriage, because I think people need to hear these.

[00:07:20] Okay.

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:21] Nobody's asked me about that in an interview.

[00:07:23] So, um, yeah.

[00:07:24] So I'm excited to talk about that.

[00:07:26] Um, but yeah, I thought like, what does like healthy and faithful honoring sexuality look like in a marriage?

[00:07:36] Um, you know, if purity culture is not it, then what is?

[00:07:40] And so I built on the work of Sheila Gregoire and some others with these five characteristics.

[00:07:45] One is that it's intimate.

[00:07:47] It's like relational and it's a connection.

[00:07:49] Like in my practice, I define intimacy as anything that makes us feel close and connected to another person.

[00:07:55] Um, so when I say sex is intimate, it's just, you feel close and, um, and you feel connected to each other.

[00:08:00] Um, it's fruitful and by that certainly can mean procreation, having children, but more than that, fruitful just means like beneficial.

[00:08:09] Um, so it's beneficial to yourself as an individual and to your relationship.

[00:08:13] Um, you shouldn't have sex even in your marriage that leaves you feeling used and leaves you feeling, um, you know, bad about yourself.

[00:08:21] It needs to be uplifting to both people.

[00:08:24] Um, and so that gets into the next characteristic.

[00:08:27] It should be mutual.

[00:08:28] I think that's so important, um, that it's a place of mutuality, um, where both partners, bodies and, um, are honored and their boundaries are honored.

[00:08:38] And there's a balance of, you know, sharing with each other and not just not a give and take kind of mindset.

[00:08:45] Um, and then sex is pleasurable.

[00:08:47] Yeah.

[00:08:48] So not denying the physical pleasures of sex.

[00:08:51] It should not be painful and it should be an enjoyable experience for both.

[00:08:55] And then lastly, um, good sex is shameless.

[00:08:58] So, um, not being, not having that shroud of shame that purity culture gave us, even once you're married, but being able to be uninhibited, um, with, with your spouse.

[00:09:09] So, yeah, so those are the four or five characteristics I came up with.

[00:09:14] Um, what did, what did you think of them?

[00:09:16] Did you feel like I left anything out or what would you say?

[00:09:19] No, I, I think, I think for the, a lot of my listeners, I think, especially the ones who grew up in purity culture, they, they need to hear those.

[00:09:27] You know, um, I, I think for a lot of folks, whether they realize it or not, uh, consciously or subconsciously, you know, like number three, sex is pleasurable.

[00:09:36] Like, that's one that is not a given for a lot of folks who went through this sort of upbringing and, um, you know, and, and so I think putting it out there and saying the words like and giving people permission, um, you know, to engage in all five of these, I think is really, really important.

[00:09:54] And what I wanted people to see is that just because sex is taking place in your marriage doesn't mean it's holy.

[00:09:59] Absolutely. Because purity culture just said, you know, sex outside of marriage, bad sex in marriage, good.

[00:10:05] And it's more complex than that.

[00:10:07] There's marital rape, you know, like that.

[00:10:08] Yeah. Yeah. Because if it's not mutual, then it's not holy. Um, if it's not connecting and it doesn't benefit, you know, you and your marriage, then it's not, yeah, it's not honoring of you or God, um, or your, your spouse.

[00:10:22] So, and when I said like pleasurable, it doesn't mean like every time you have sex has to be like, you know, swing from the chandeliers, but just that like each person's physical experience is taken into account and their, yeah, that their experience matters.

[00:10:37] So, um, yeah, so I really wanted to kind of debunk the idea that just because it's in marriage means that it's pure.

[00:10:44] Yeah. That's, that's so huge. So I hope people, you know, take something away from that. And I, I just thought that was really important to say on the podcast.

[00:10:53] Yeah. So, um, the, the, the, the one I sort of want to end on is I think a lot of people who listen to the podcast have children and are thinking to themselves, I don't want my kids to be raised in the same way that I was.

[00:11:06] And they have to go through the same sort of deprogramming almost, uh, in the aftermath of being raised in this type of, um, culture.

[00:11:14] So how does one parent through this type of thing?

[00:11:17] Like, yeah, that's the million dollar question. Um, do you have kids?

[00:11:23] I do. I have a daughter and I'll be honest when I first found out, like I said, I was born and raised Lutheran. This was not a thing. Um, and then I had, uh, some friends who were in a youth group with me and I was probably 18 or 19 years old. And I remember hearing a story about one of the girls who came from and more of a fundamentalist upbringing. And she told me this story about how they passed an Oreo around. Have you heard this one? Yeah.

[00:11:51] And they like throw it on the ground and get it dirty and spit on it and all this stuff. And they get to the end. Well, I, I left out the part at the beginning. They raise it up and they say, who wants to eat this Oreo? And of course, Oreo is the perfect cookie. So, you know, everybody's like, I want that. I want to eat that Oreo.

[00:12:05] But when they get to the end, it's so gross and dirtied and things. Um, they said now who wants to eat it? And of course, everyone's like, no. And he said, you know, and the point is that if you have sex before marriage, then you will become the dirty Oreo and who will want you. And again, it's, it goes back to that, the patriarchy, uh, piece of it where, you know, ultimately it's the, the male and what they think of you and how they see you and view you, which is gross. And I remember thinking, what? Like, I mean,

[00:12:36] awful. Even then in new in my gut, I'm like, there's something very, very wrong with this. And so later, years and years later, I didn't get married until my thirties as well. Um, and didn't have kids until later. And I have a daughter. And of course, like my brain goes to, to this sort of, you know, this sort of stuff. And I'm like, I would never allow my daughter to think those things about herself. Like I want her to realize that sexuality is a natural part of being a human being and not her, not have her feel.

[00:13:05] I feel ashamed about it. And so, yes, that was a long answer to your question, but yes.

[00:13:10] No, I think that's beautiful because by us giving our children a different experience than we had, it's a way of reparenting ourselves to, you know, teaching our children, like your body is beautiful and good.

[00:13:21] All of you, even your genitals and sex is a beautiful thing that God created. Like that is a way to heal yourself from the messages you didn't, you did or didn't hear.

[00:13:32] And you wish you had heard instead. Um, so there's some practical things with kids.

[00:13:37] Like I think that we can do as far as like making sex education ongoing and not just a one-time talk, um, using correct anatomical names and like giving them age appropriate information, not just telling them like, Oh, we'll get to that when you're older kind of thing.

[00:13:52] Um, and helping them critically think about, um, um, topics themselves without just giving them the answers.

[00:13:59] I want my children to be able to think, what do, what do I think for myself? And to kind of examine things from different angles because that fosters the critical thinking that we're all trying to do now in our deconstruction.

[00:14:10] Cause we weren't taught those skills growing up. Um, but then as far as like actually talking about sex and your sexual values, I think you don't have to be afraid of sharing your sexual values with your kids.

[00:14:24] You can talk about, this is what our religion or faith teaches. This is our beliefs about, um, you know, what God says about our bodies and what he says about sex.

[00:14:34] You can share that, but you don't have to do it with the shame and the false promises and the myths of purity culture.

[00:14:40] And I think I also do it with this kind of attitude of like, they're going to make their own choices too. Like I respect their autonomy. They may have different values than me. They may make different choices than I would like, or than I would have, you know, made for them. Um, but respecting them as their own people.

[00:14:58] I think that's different than purity culture too. You know, I'm not, we're not trying to control and coerce them, um, into this, this decision.

[00:15:06] So, yeah. So I think some parents, you know, like we just want to swing the pendulum to the opposite way. And it's like, well, I'm just either, I'm not going to talk about sexual values at all. Like I'm just going to teach them about consent and then like, let them make their own choices. But like, we want more than consent for our kids. Like we want more than just, well, as long as it's legal and everyone's agreed to it, go for it. Like we want them to be respected and to respect themselves.

[00:15:30] We want them to consider the heart, their heart and emotions and the other person's too. We want them to think about, do I have, do I have the frontal lobe capacity to make these huge decisions? You know, like they, uh, as a teenager, I don't, I don't believe you do. So, um, yeah. So I feel like there's, there's more to it. Even if you no longer want to teach your kids to save sex for marriage, there's still more to it than that to teach them.

[00:15:56] Yeah. And I mean, science backs that up. Like, uh, more recent studies have suggested that your brain development doesn't even, doesn't even wrap up until you're like 25. And so it's like, these are really big, important decisions that are, um, that can impact your life down the road. And I mean, there's a reason that you have a job. So, you know, and that we're all in therapy now, which is good. Um,

[00:16:20] It is.

[00:16:22] But yeah, that's really tough. And the other thing that we forgot to touch on, I think is important to what we're talking about right now is the fact that, um, like kind of coupled with purity culture, like for a long time, we had sort of this abstinence only sort of education, which clearly the studies have showed does not work. Um, and so I think to your point, we're not telling everybody to go out and, and, you know, live out the 1969 Woodstock.

[00:16:50] Vibe necessarily, but like, there's gotta be a happy middle ground, right? Where we can educate them, but also kind of instill some, some morals and values.

[00:16:59] Yeah. And I think empowering them with knowledge and with those critical, that critical thinking and talking about your family's values and helping them explore their own values will set the foundation that they need in order to make those decisions when they're older.

[00:17:14] Um, yeah. So it's very different than purity culture of like, you'll, you'll be, um, you know, I'll be happy with you if you make this decision or everybody else is doing this.

[00:17:25] Everyone else is signing this pledge card or, you know, well, you'll be a crushed Oreo if you have sex.

[00:17:31] Like, we're not, we're not going to do that or we're going to stay away from that, but we can still talk about values and even talk about, um, what we believe the Bible or God teaches, what his heart is for sex without the shaming tactics of purity culture.

[00:17:45] So you're saying it's possible to do that while also educating people on like contraceptives and STDs.

[00:17:51] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:17:52] For STIs, I guess now.

[00:17:54] Um, yeah, we need, we need to know that stuff too. Yeah.

[00:17:58] Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah. So any final thoughts, like I, again, can't recommend the book enough. It's called Recovering from Purity Culture.

[00:18:06] Uh, Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality and Move Forward in Your Faith.

[00:18:11] Um, amazing book. Can't recommend it enough. And especially because at the end of every chapter, you've got, like I said at the top, um, some, some different practices and things that you can do.

[00:18:20] Um, obviously again, I will promote therapy until the day I die, uh, as being very, very crucial, important. There's plenty of stuff that, uh, we could probably benefit from in that, in that, um, in that way.

[00:18:34] But, uh, any final thoughts and things that you sort of hopes that you have for this book and things that you want people to know?

[00:18:42] Yeah, I also am a big believer and proponent of therapy, obviously. Um, but I wanted this book to feel like you've gotten some therapy sessions.

[00:18:50] Like you've gotten, these are the tools that I, you know, are evidence-based, used in therapy, and that I use for Purity Culture Recovery clients.

[00:19:00] Um, and I wanted it to be a resource for people who can't access therapy, who don't have those resources.

[00:19:05] They can buy a book for $15 and get a lot of tools out of it.

[00:19:10] Or, for those who are in therapy, a lot of therapists aren't knowledgeable or trained about this.

[00:19:15] Like, either they just, they didn't grow up in this culture, so they don't know what it is.

[00:19:18] Or maybe they did, but they don't really know how to treat it in an ethical and, you know, um, evidence-based way.

[00:19:25] So this can be a resource that you can give to your therapist, too, or can be an adjunct to the work that you're already doing.

[00:19:31] Um, yeah, so my biggest hope is just that it's a tool of healing for people, that, um, that it really does help people take the next step that they need.

[00:19:39] Because people feel so stuck in this problem, and it really can affect and pervade every area of our life, not just our sex life, but, like, our relationship to ourself,

[00:19:49] and our relationship with others, and our faith, our relationship to God.

[00:19:52] And so I really hope that this book helps people take that next step forward.

[00:19:57] Well, you've done a wonderful job.

[00:19:59] The book is amazing.

[00:20:00] Folks need to go check it out.

[00:20:02] We'll have the links in the show notes.

[00:20:04] But before I let you go, what's the best place to stay up on top of the work that you're doing,

[00:20:09] and any particular place that you recommend people grab a copy of the book?

[00:20:13] Okay, sure.

[00:20:14] Yeah, my website, drcamden.com, is the best place to find me.

[00:20:18] And then I'm on Instagram, Facebook threads.

[00:20:21] Don't do Twitter much these days, but I'm on the other ones at Dr. Camden.

[00:20:26] And you can get the book wherever books are sold.

[00:20:29] Amazon, of course, is a great choice, but Baker Bookhouse, which is my publisher, gives 40% off and free shipping for pre-orders.

[00:20:36] And then after it comes out on October 15th, it's 30% off.

[00:20:38] So that's a great place to get it.

[00:20:40] Okay.

[00:20:41] All right.

[00:20:42] Well, we'll make sure all that is in the show notes.

[00:20:44] So folks go out and get it.

[00:20:45] And thank you so much for coming again.

[00:20:47] This was a really fun conversation.

[00:20:49] And I really hope that people get something out of it and find it useful.

[00:20:55] So thank you so much.

[00:20:56] Thank you, John.

[00:22:08] We'll see you next time.

[00:22:10] And your pews every single

[00:22:13] And I gave you my money

[00:22:22] So that you would tell me what to

[00:22:35] Take in the heart

[00:22:48] Who's young

[00:23:23] So come as you are

[00:23:27] Take up your cross

[00:23:30] Use it to build a wall

[00:23:38] Across the empire

[00:23:41] So you can keep

[00:24:02] Accept our gift

[00:24:04] Salvation from sin

[00:24:19] Taking me to

[00:25:08] Way through the fear and the hurt

[00:25:12] For us to love and