Ep. 187 - Carrie Sheffield ”Motorhome Prophesies” pt. 2

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to The Deconstructionists podcast. I'm your host John Williamson and we're back with part 2 of my interview with Carrie Sheffield.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get to that, just a couple quick updates. First of all, thank you guys for all being very, very patient. It was about a month between episodes that was not planned.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It was on the calendar to continue weekly. And then I was in the midst of a move, moving to a new house and setting up a new recording studio.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And that took longer than I anticipated. And then right immediately after that, I got COVID again. So yeah, so feeling way, way better now still sound a little bit under the weather.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel great, feel much, much better. And so hopefully there will be no more stops until the end of season 12 here.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then again, like I said, we'll take a probably shorter break than we intended before we launch into the end of the year and finish up the end of the year.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But for now this is part 2. Hopefully you enjoyed the first part. If you haven't listened to it yet, pause, go back, listen to that part first.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But Carrie Sheffield was super, super fun interview and just an absolutely fascinating story of just someone who overcame like a number of obstacles to be the success that she is today.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So she is a columnist and broadcast from Washington, D.C. The book that she just released is a bestselling book called Motorhome Prophecies, A Journey of Healing and Forgiveness.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That just came out. Fascinating book. Absolutely fantastic read. Check it out. You've probably seen her.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: She's been all over the news. She's been on numerous different channels and has published in all sorts of different publications as well from The Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine, USA Today's CNN Opinion, The New York Times,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Washington Post, CNBC, National Review, The D.C. Examiner, Newsweek, HuffPost, and Daily Caller as well as numerous others.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So she's been all over the place. She's been on Fox News, Newsmax, TV, Fox Business Network, MSNBC, CNN, PBS and BBC. She worked as a White House correspondent for a time and is just obviously, as you can see in her bio, quite prolific.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So super, super kind and fun interview. So hopefully you guys enjoyed the second part of this.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: In the meanwhile, check out the website. We did have a slight update. So unfortunately there's some confusion with the renewal. It lost the domain name.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you go to .com, you're going to do some weird, I don't know what's going on in there, but we secured .org. So same website with just .org at the end.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: If you go to any of our link tree links that are in the bios of all of our social media, it'll take you straight to the new website. It's just the deconstructionist.org now.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Able to save the entire website though. So all of the content that was on the old website is on the new one, including all of our blogs, links to our social media, links to our Patreon, our Web Store, which now has international shipping and different options available,

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as for free, you can stream any of our back catalogue of episodes through the website. So I'll be updating that today in fact. So go check it out. Otherwise enjoy the second part of this episode.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back next week with a brand new guest. And until then, I give you Carrie Freakin Sheffield.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We built a church on certainty that fears everything against it.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's funny. I'm not at all surprised by that data because at the core, you know, one of the one of the main focal points of like the 12 step programs that the use for AA is believing in a power greater than yourself and sort of sort of, you know, and part of that too kind of leads back to your time about anxiety.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember one my therapist say at one point, you know, anxiety, you know, often stems from trying to control that which you can't control. And once you let go of that, you know, the letting go the act of letting go is part of kind of like relieving that stress or that anxiety.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other piece of it too is just like, the thing that we've talked about since the very beginning of this podcast is the just like I cannot emphasize this enough but the importance of community, like whatever that looks like and everything that comes along with being a part of a community

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, someone there, you know, to lend an ear or just say I'm sorry that sucks and give you a hug or hold you accountable sometimes we need to be held accountable but there's there's so much positivity that comes out of being a part of a community.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, just the fact that human beings, you know, are not meant to be isolated were communal by nature. So I'm not surprised at all by any of that data.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and what's interesting is that the community you can because we've seen people like Richard Dawkins recently the atheist saying like I consider myself now a cultural Christian but I'm still atheist, you know, because I respect Christian culture.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was, I don't want to live under the barbarian Muslims, you know, I respect Christian dumb.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, dude, you've spent decades trying to destroy Christian dumb I appreciate that you've seen the light now, at least on the fruits of it. But here's the thing, you can't take the fruit without the tree.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you can't you. It doesn't just, you can't have. I mean, yes, you can have close community around other things like a polo club or a yacht club you can have community around these things, but they will not be the same level of rootedness and depth that comes in Christ.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can say, and I say this is a recovered agnostic because I used to when I was going through this journey I actually went through that fate I went through that Richard Dawkins phase where I was like, you know, even if it's not true I still I like what they're doing and I don't like the alternative and

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: when I hang out with people who are not rooted, I find myself feeling worse. So I like this feeling I get when I'm in this specific community so I don't care if Jesus was actually divine or not. I just I like I like the trappings of it, you know, and it's interesting because I think that

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_03]: that's a better in between than hating it and wanting to destroy it. So at least you admire it, but I say let's take it a step further and say you can't just this nothing comes out of a vacuum.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting too to your point like when you talk to people who aren't even Christian, and you boil it down to any and you discuss the teachings of Jesus like in everything that Jesus stood for.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Even even atheists have to admit like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. You know, like that, you know, he had he had some good stuff to say there I think you know we should probably love one another and we should probably take care of the poor and the sick and the widows.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So like there aren't too many people out there who would argue against that which is kind of the interesting part of it.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I spoke at Yale about my book. I was invited by some a student group and the student group loved everything I had to say. There was a professor who came who wasn't part of the original invite group per se.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: He hated my Christian background because he said Hitler was a Christian and I was like, no, he wasn't like that's debatable.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: You're a Yale professor like read what he was trying to use Christianity as a political tool. Yeah, and he would do that publicly but privately he thought it was stupid and he hated that Jesus was a Jew.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: He also hated the mythology of it.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I did some research on this actually after he made these claims. Turns out that Goebbels, the advisor to Hitler wrote in his private journal.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: The fewer hates Christianity because he thinks the mythology and the iconography is dark and depressing and just like soul crushing like the cathedrals he thinks are dark and dink and

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and he prefers the architecture and the temples of the Roman, the Greco-Roman Zeus and that he's positive and smiling and bright. He thinks that it's bright.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just like, okay, Hitler obviously just cared about the iconography of it. He didn't actually, again, he's like Richard Dawkins.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He just sees the superficial nature of it versus, wow.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, he just didn't like that Jesus dies. He thinks that's a loser.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oh yeah, and then he was resurrected. You're kind of missing that part but even that you're a god who is being beaten and killed by his creation.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: That kind of sucks. It's not like him. He would never do that. He wanted people to basically worship him and idolize him.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's definitely somebody who doesn't know their history very well if they think that's the case.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of ironic also that Hitler was like this is too depressing but like murdering millions of people isn't, you know, but that's a whole other conversation.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Very good point.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So, you know, you talked about like all this adversity that you had to overcome en route to becoming a Harvard professor and so looking back now, you know, current state,

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm assuming at least some of your siblings kind of followed suit as, you know, kind of followed you blaze the trail.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Did any of them also sort of see the light so to speak and find their way out of it?

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you mentioned there are some of your brothers that did not.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So what current state like where does your family sit when it comes to this?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So, oh and just I'm not Harvard professor. I'm just a Harvard master's so that's just quick little note but I put a note in the book that you know I do not.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't go in depth with profiling my siblings in some respects because I want to respect their privacy.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So I, and the editor who looked at my manuscript the first time she's like your siblings aren't really big characters.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, that's by design for their own protection.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Like they have the right to tell their own stories.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I do talk about the impact that this upbringing had on us because it's illustrative.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I'm doing it and to help people but one of my brothers is Christian.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He got baptized a couple years after I did.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we've been supporting each other, which is great.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And a couple other siblings who have done Catholic a Catholic walk.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So my brother's Protestant as well.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_03]: The one I mentioned.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we're all at different different kind of phases and different ebbs and flows, but we've we've all struggled with our mental health.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where I think siblings, I'm sure everybody here who has a sibling, you know how they know how to push your buttons and vice versa.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's been ebbs and flows like I would have a favorite brother and then another favorite brother.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They've got five of them it would change, you know, and I've been there for them and they've been there for me.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a couple different times I talked about how my two separate sisters separately at different times were there for me when I was feeling suicidal.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and I appreciate that you know, and I think the trauma response, knowing how to push someone's buttons and vice versa it can be hard to unwire that default.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And to feel like the sibling actually loves me versus I'm in competition with them or because that's one of the other thing of the cult stuff is that you, you turn yourself, you know, turning turning the members on each other.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So that there's not actually a deep love for each other you're actually kind of hating each other because ultimately cults are found around hate and the cult leader, ultimately both hates themselves.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But also as a nurse, because nurses actually do hate themselves they don't know it, but they actually do because that's why they hate because if they they're so insecure that they don't realize how much they actually hate themselves and they control and abuse and do all kinds of other coping mechanisms to try to feel loved.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they hate themselves. And so that programming was passed to all of us. So feeling suicidal is ultimately self hatred.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's, it's hard to know how to talk to someone, especially since I've been verbally abusive of siblings and they've been verbally abusive of me, how do you go to a new phase.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I've actually offered to pay for family therapy for a couple of my siblings so that we can have conversations with the therapist.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Nutrally, I would let them pick it and I will pay for it. And unfortunately they haven't taken me up on that. So the door is open.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a remarkable offer to make. Yeah, and it's unfortunate like we're such huge advocates here for therapy and taking care of yourself mentally.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I myself dealt with depression over the years and it's funny to look back even six years ago.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember when I first went on antidepressants and I remember it was like, I was going to a small group with the church I was going to at the time.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And it took me three or four weeks to even get the guts to tell them.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I'm like, it seems so silly now because I'll tell anybody I don't care.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm like, yeah, you know, sometimes drugs are necessary like to regulate. Sometimes your body just doesn't produce enough serotonin or whatever.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, kind of like if your body doesn't produce enough insulin, you might need some medication for that.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: No different here. And so I'll tell anybody now like, hey, if you need it, you need it and trust me, you'll feel infinitely better and you'll never look back.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But back then it was just impossible to even admit that I had the underlying condition that needed to be treated.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like a lot of people probably were raised in that way where especially within guys, I know you mentioned earlier that the disparity between men and women,

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: like we're like from the male side, it's like generations of just suppressing your feelings and not talking about it.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it took me years of therapy to even be able to talk about my feelings.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I used to annoy my therapist because she's saying, how are you feeling? I'm like annoyed. She goes, okay, that's a surface feeling.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: What's making you annoyed? I'm like, oh, you know, so, you know, it's so I get it and you know, therapy is hard.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's uncomfortable often. It's painful. But my God, is it so worth it? You know, after you were, you know, granted bear it and kind of work through it.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, what a double edged sword that like you've got family members who, you know, like are the only ones who can identify with what you've experienced because they were there as well.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But on the flip side also know how to, as you said, trigger, you know, that response.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's, I can't even imagine. So talk a little bit about ultimately, you know, you mentioned this a little bit at the top, but I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about your hope for this book because obviously you have a goal in mind and you've already sort of seen the fruits of some of that with the response that you've gotten initially.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But ultimately what is your hope for this book?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I my hope for the book is that it can help lead people to know more who God is.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I talk a lot about a book by Tim Keller named counterfeit gods. And each chapter is a counterfeit God that we use in place that we worship the created and set of the creature.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And so my goal with the book is to help people understand through my walk and maybe see some reflection in their walk, how God a major theme that I have in the book is that God is not religion.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So that even if you've had church hurt or some type of religious abuse. I do believe that's no coincidence why Gen Z is the most anxious and depressed generation, usually in sociology or demography like the older generation is suicidal because they're there in a lot of physical pain and they just

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_03]: die and they have higher suicide and fact that Gen Z is like young people and they are feeling suicidal. That is a huge red flag.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And to me it's no coincidence that they're also the most unchurched, they're the most un-Christian generation that this country has seen in more than 200 years, almost 250 years.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is a sociological experiment that America has never tried before. I mean it really started in the 1960s when you had the massive upheaval and the assault on our Judeo-Christian heritage.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But the thing is I wrestle with that in the book because I agree that there are evil things done in the Judeo-Christian heritage using God's name falsely.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we need to repent and acknowledge those things but also acknowledge that's not the end of the story.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's why you can't, so Richard Dawkins it's interesting because he's over there in Europe which is far more secular than we are and it's like they're 20, 30 years ahead.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't like what he's dealing with. I don't want to be in that place either. So my hope in this book is to help our country, yes, be honest and truthful about the evil done in the name of Christ and in the name of God.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I had evil spoken over me in the name of Christ. I had a curse put on me in the name of Christ. That's evil.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And we have to acknowledge that and to acknowledge that it hurts people and then it causes them to hate God because you're using his name wrongly.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And I like to say it's, I heard a pastor on Instagram and I should have clipped to it was. I don't want to steal his line but it's a great line.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And it is that if you hear Beethoven's Night Symphony played horribly, you don't blame Beethoven. You blame the musicians.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a horrible Christian who abuses you. Don't blame Jesus.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's such a good way to put it. If you find out who that was, let me know. That's really good.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and I think, you know, I don't think there's any question as to some of the causes behind the rise in suicide amongst this generation.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just the, it feels like a sort of lost generation trying to find its footing and figure out who they are on top of all of these other societal pressures placed on them right now.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then on top of that, you know, you can't even afford to buy a house anymore. So it's like, you know, it's unbelievable.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would argue that there are more pressures placed on this generation than any prior generation in the history of America at this point.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if at some point we can get, we can continue to make therapy a normalized therapy and normalized mental health and make it accessible and affordable.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we'd be moving in the right direction.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And it's interesting because I think there are some Christians who, yeah, they might have actually judged you for using medication or judged you.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the reason you felt reticent is because it's very rational because a lot of people, Christians, they say, well, just pray harder.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, you're not right to stuff like you just need Jesus more like, okay, but what does that actually mean?

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And Kurt Thompson, if you guys aren't familiar with him, he's fantastic.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a really well known therapist who's Christian and he studied neuroscience and the neurobiology.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you said, it is a chemical and physical thing.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the first time I went to therapy.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It was actually a Mormon bishop at the time because I was the BYU student and he said, if you had a broken leg, you wouldn't think twice about getting a cast.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Or if you had chemo, you wouldn't think twice about, I'm sorry, if you had cancer, you wouldn't think twice about going and getting chemo.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a physical problem.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I've been on antidepressants a couple of times in my life.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm off of them now.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm able to, you know, through exercise and eating well, getting good sleep, mitigating stress.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm able to live without eating medication.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And what I do go to therapy regularly and I'm very active in the spiritual community because that's where the neuroplasticity of your brain, the physical cognitive behavior is a manifestation of the emotions that you speak through therapy.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And so therapy is not just for wimps lying on a couch crying about their problems.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually a physical treatment.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It's basically like, again, nobody would think twice if you're going into physical therapy.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03]: This is physical therapy for your brain.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's creating new neuroplastic synapse of firing and wiring patterns.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what it is.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It is physical therapy.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Therapy is physical therapy.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I should make that bumper sticker.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so funny.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me think of, I can't tell you how many times somebody said to me, I've been thinking about going to therapy.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, don't think about it.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Go.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you're thinking about it, I mean, what's the harm in trying it?

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I will say make sure that you might need not all the time, but you might need to therapist shop.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And yes, as a believer, you might, for me, I prefer having believers.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a really great Jewish therapist.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a really great Christian therapist now.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I still talk to the Jewish one sometimes too.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I, and it was in New York.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So, but I moved down here and she's in Virginia.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So, but I've tried some terrible ones.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I had one who I swear it was like she was trying to make me co-dependent on her.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, I feel worse after leaving her office, which is not how you should feel.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think when you're going through severe trauma, things like divorce, child abuse or

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: or chemical imbalances that leave you physically unable to do what you need,

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: then going to therapy is wonderful.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And but you can get a lot of the same benefits from a small group.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really what's interesting is this notion that therapy is a new, you know, it's a modern thing.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually just kind of applying things that we've known all along and that a lot of clergy have played that role in a lot of

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: respects of, you know, the confession booth.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's like a therapy room.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I also read a book that really transformed and I talk about in the book transformed my life.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a book by a guy named Donald Robertson.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a therapist and he also has a background in stoic philosophy and understanding the stoicism and the classics

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and Greco-Roman philosophy.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And his book is about the the behavior cognitive behavioral therapy CBT, which I think is probably the most effective school of therapy in my view.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It is rooted.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_03]: The people who founded it are actually they explicitly said we're we're rooting our tactics in stoicism, which was an ancient Roman school of philosophy.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Greco-Roman and it was it was created to train young men on how to be virtuous leaders and good rulers.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like the elite young men were sent to these philosophy schools to learn stoicism.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's the same ideas.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And like the Bible says, there's nothing new under the sun.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So for therapy, it's like, OK, we'll just do what's already been done for thousands of years.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just in a new it's got maybe a few new words.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today before I let you go.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Where can people stay up on top of what you're up to and get a copy of the book?

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I've got a sub stack.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: That's probably the easiest place I do monthly updates on there.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you that's for the free newsletter, if you do paid, we have more regular updates as well.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, here's the book Motorhome Prophecies.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It's on Amazon and you can get it.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: If you prefer local bookstores, call your local bookstore and ask them if they don't have it on the shelf to order it for you.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm on all the social media platforms, the big ones and look forward to connecting with them.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll have the links in the show notes.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So go check it out.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Go grab a copy of the book.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, John.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03]: God bless.

[00:26:57] Thank you.

[00:27:23] Thank you.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:28:58] Thank you.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.