BONUS: Nora Creech "The Shroud of Turin"

[00:00:00] Oh, church, when did we lose our way?

[00:00:35] When I sat down with Nora Creech, she works extensively on the Shroud of Turin.

[00:00:40] Some of you may have heard of this, but she works with a group called Athonia.

[00:00:43] They study the linen cloth and she's an experienced lecturer on the history, science, and pastoral implications of the Shroud.

[00:00:51] Nora was kind enough to come on the show and share her vast knowledge behind the Shroud, what we know, what we don't know, the sorts of scientific tests that have been conducted.

[00:00:59] And the fact remains though that the authenticity of the Shroud remains controversial, which we discuss in the episode.

[00:01:04] Dan McClellan, who's been a guest on the show and I'm a big fan of Dan's work.

[00:01:09] He recently did a really good episode on his podcast about the Shroud, his podcast called Data Over Dogma.

[00:01:15] And it's been written about extensively. There's tons of stuff out on the internet.

[00:01:18] But whether it's authentic or whether it's a hoax, the fact remains that at the end of the day, it still comes down to the question of faith.

[00:01:26] Ultimately placing our trust in something that is unprovable and unquantifiable.

[00:01:32] So enjoy this episode.

[00:01:33] I'm releasing the full interview here as a bonus.

[00:01:36] I'd also like to say happy holidays, Merry Christmas, and a happy new year to all of you out there listening.

[00:01:43] After nearly 10 years of doing this podcast, it still brings me a ton of joy to put these interviews out there in hopes it provides some value to all of you.

[00:01:51] So with much love from me, I hope you have a wonderful holiday season and a wonderful new year.

[00:01:56] And we'll be back next week and technically next year with brand new content.

[00:02:00] So thank you so much for listening.

[00:02:02] And without further ado, here's Nora freaking Creech.

[00:02:16] Okay, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:18] Very excited to have my guest on this week.

[00:02:19] Nora Creech, thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

[00:02:23] Thank you, John.

[00:02:23] I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:25] Well, before we kick it off, because I think this is a really fascinating topic as we kind of discussed before we started recording.

[00:02:31] Tell folks a little bit about your background and how you came to be connected with the Shroud of Turin.

[00:02:37] So I became interested in the Shroud back in 1978.

[00:02:40] And that is a very important year in terms of the Shroud because it was the first and only time that there was a multidisciplinary study of the Shroud.

[00:02:50] And as it turns out, a member of my church community was one of the scientists who was a part of that scientific study.

[00:02:58] And so when he came back from his time in Turin, he started giving talks in our community in Colorado.

[00:03:06] And my father was very interested in the Shroud.

[00:03:08] And so my dad and I would go together.

[00:03:11] We'd go and listen to Rudolf Dichtel give his talks.

[00:03:15] And so it's been a lifelong interest of mine really starting when I was a teenager in high school.

[00:03:21] That's a really cool connection.

[00:03:23] So tell people, because this goes back well before, obviously, the 70s.

[00:03:28] We've had possession of the Shroud for a very long time.

[00:03:33] So tell people, kind of give them the background on when was this artifact first discovered, where, and that sort of thing.

[00:03:42] So the history of the Shroud before the 1350s is murky.

[00:03:46] So there are a lot of people who are actively working on this, historians who are actively researching where the Shroud was, how it ended up in various places in its history before the 1350s.

[00:03:59] Starting in about the middle of the 1350s, the history of the Shroud is very, very well documented.

[00:04:06] It showed up in a little village in Lire, France for the first time.

[00:04:10] And it was being put on public exposition during that time.

[00:04:14] And the family that owned it would never say how they came to own it.

[00:04:19] So that's why there's this kind of murkiness in its past.

[00:04:22] But since 1350, its history is well known.

[00:04:26] The family that owned it, it passed down in their family line for a few generations.

[00:04:31] And then it was procured by the Savoy family.

[00:04:36] And the Savoy were the ruling family of the northern part of Italy and the southern part of France.

[00:04:41] They were a very powerful, wealthy, influential family.

[00:04:45] And they owned the Shroud for centuries.

[00:04:48] And in 1578, they moved the Shroud to their kind of government headquarters, which was in Turin, Italy.

[00:04:58] And it's an interesting thing.

[00:04:59] They built their palace.

[00:05:01] And then they built the cathedral.

[00:05:03] And in the middle, they built a chapel to house the Shroud.

[00:05:06] And so the Shroud was moved there in 1578.

[00:05:10] And it has been in Turin, Italy all of that time, except for it did leave during World War II for safekeeping.

[00:05:17] So the Savoy family owned the Shroud all the way up until 1983.

[00:05:22] And that is the time when the deposed king, King Umberto II, he was the last king of Italy.

[00:05:29] He was deposed during World War II.

[00:05:31] And upon his death, he gifted the Shroud to the person of the pope.

[00:05:36] And so the pope at that time was Pope John Paul II.

[00:05:40] And so then now it's passed down.

[00:05:43] So technically, the owner of the shroud today is Pope Francis.

[00:05:49] And it's housed in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy to this day.

[00:05:56] Interesting. So talk a little bit about, so obviously this initial family comes into possession of it.

[00:06:03] You know, again, as you said, kind of murky details in terms of how and where they located it.

[00:06:08] But what do we know for a fact, for certain, as of that kind of starting point?

[00:06:14] Before the 1350s?

[00:06:17] Or just like whatever the earliest date is, like what do we know for certain about the artifact?

[00:06:22] Well, the burial cloth of Jesus is mentioned in all four Gospels.

[00:06:28] And so there is a burial cloth that is brought to the cross by Joseph of Arimathea.

[00:06:35] He's noted as a rich man, and it's noted as a fine piece of cloth that is what is used to wrap the body of Jesus.

[00:06:44] Then we see again in the Gospel of John in chapter 20, after the resurrection, that John and Peter go into the tomb.

[00:06:54] And we often call it the empty tomb, but it really wasn't empty because the burial cloth was there.

[00:07:00] And John describes seeing the burial cloth and then also the face cloth that was folded up in a separate place by itself.

[00:07:07] And he's very clear. He says he saw and believed.

[00:07:12] So John is talking about himself in this understanding that came to him at this moment in the tomb that he finally understood what Jesus was saying, that he had to rise from the dead.

[00:07:23] So those are really the earliest mentions of what today we call the Shroud of Turin.

[00:07:30] We could call it the burial cloth of Jesus.

[00:07:33] And from there, there's theories about where the cloth was.

[00:07:37] There's a strong theory that it went to Antioch with some of the disciples when they fled Jerusalem because Antioch was a safe place for Christians.

[00:07:47] It was sort of the birthplace of Christianity.

[00:07:50] There was a big Christian community there.

[00:07:52] So there's some theories that it was there.

[00:07:54] There's also a legend that goes back to the king of Edessa, which is in modern-day Turkey.

[00:08:02] And that was another place where Christianity became very strong.

[00:08:07] And there's a legend that a cloth bearing the face of Jesus was brought to the king of Edessa and that it was safeguarded there for many centuries.

[00:08:18] There's also very strong evidence that the Shroud was in Constantinople, that it was taken from Edessa to Constantinople at some time in its history.

[00:08:28] And, of course, at that time, Constantinople was the center of the Christian world.

[00:08:32] And it was filled with wonderful, great, beautiful, valuable things.

[00:08:38] And then, of course, there was the Fourth Crusade and the sack of Constantinople and this terrible tragedy in the family of Christendom.

[00:08:48] And after that time, there's what is called the missing year.

[00:08:53] So if the cloth that we think today is the burial cloth of Jesus was in Constantinople, it disappeared in 1204 after the sack of Constantinople.

[00:09:06] And then this cloth later appears in this small village in Lirey, France.

[00:09:12] So, as I said, it's very murky and there are a lot of people piecing it together, but it's still at the point of a lot of disagreement among scholars about what path it took, who owned it, how it came to be in different places at different times.

[00:09:28] Yeah, and that's interesting that there are, you know, we can point back to earlier references to such a cloth.

[00:09:34] And so it tends to lend a little credibility to the fact that, well, people did believe that this existed somewhere.

[00:09:42] And so, you know, now that we have this cloth, it seems to match some of the descriptions out there.

[00:09:47] Talk a little bit about the physical makeup because, you know, a big piece of it is, hey, this is a cloth from thousands of years ago.

[00:09:54] And how, you know, did it survive all of those years?

[00:09:58] Because a lot of those materials would have deteriorated in a lot of cases.

[00:10:03] So it's made of linen and linen is an organic material.

[00:10:07] It comes from the flax plant.

[00:10:09] So linen has been discovered in a lot of the Egyptian tombs.

[00:10:14] And so there's linen that's even well older than the 2,000 years of the shroud.

[00:10:20] However, the thing that makes the shroud really unique is that it's in this herringbone twill, which is a three over one pattern.

[00:10:29] And the thing that's most similar to that today would be your Levi's jeans.

[00:10:32] They're a herringbone twill.

[00:10:34] And so in the first century, that would have been extremely valuable to produce because it was much more sophisticated than a one-to-one, one-over-one weave.

[00:10:46] And there have been other linen cloths discovered that are the age of the shroud.

[00:10:52] And there have been other herringbone weave cloths found.

[00:10:56] But there has not been another single cloth that is both linen and a herringbone weave from that time period.

[00:11:02] So it's a very unique artifact.

[00:11:06] It's also very enormous.

[00:11:08] People are always really surprised by how big it is.

[00:11:10] It's over 14 feet long and three and a half feet wide.

[00:11:14] And so in terms of its physical structure, for someone to own a piece of fabric like that during the time of Christ, it would have taken a very wealthy person, as Joseph of Arimathea is described as being.

[00:11:28] Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:11:30] And of course, I think the piece that we haven't talked about yet that's the most interesting about this cloth is that it has this very unique image sort of burned into it.

[00:11:41] So talk about that, because obviously that is the big piece of this mystery here.

[00:11:46] Yeah, so the Shroud of Jesus or the Shroud of Turin, again, it's this enormous piece of cloth.

[00:11:53] And when you look at it, the things that will catch your eye are there are burn marks on it, because throughout its history, it's endured some fires.

[00:12:01] It's also endured some water that perhaps was used to put out the fire or maybe just was a part of the environment it was in.

[00:12:10] So there's burn marks, there's water stains, and then there's a lot of blood on the Shroud.

[00:12:16] And so we can talk more about the blood, but that will also catch your eye.

[00:12:21] It still has retained its bright red color.

[00:12:23] And then if you look closely, you will see that there is a very faint image of a man.

[00:12:29] And the thing that is so fascinating is it's the head-to-head image.

[00:12:33] So going to one side is the frontal image of the man, and then going to the opposite side is the back image of the man.

[00:12:42] So you have to picture that the cloth was laid out flat.

[00:12:44] The man in death was put at one end of the cloth, and then it was wrapped over his head so that the image is a head-to-head image on the inside of the cloth.

[00:12:56] And the particulars of the man are what is so interesting and fascinating because he was capped with thorns.

[00:13:04] He was scourged, tortured with a Roman flagrum.

[00:13:08] He was nailed through his wrists and through his feet, and he also has a spear wound to his side.

[00:13:15] And the size and shape of that wound exactly matches the Roman lancia, which was used by the Roman soldiers during the first century.

[00:13:24] So there's this very, very faint image.

[00:13:27] It's only about 15% darker than the background of the linen.

[00:13:32] So it's difficult to see.

[00:13:34] It's been described as a watery image, but it's a light sepia color and very indistinct when you view it with the naked eye.

[00:13:45] Yeah, it's interesting because obviously someone noticed it enough to the point where they've clearly been able to enhance it with photography so you can see it a little more, a little additional contrast there.

[00:13:57] Well, let me explain that because it's actually not enhanced with photography.

[00:14:02] What happened was, I told you, the Savoy family owned the shroud.

[00:14:08] And in 1898, the city of Turin was participating in a big arts event across all of Italy.

[00:14:15] And so they wanted to have the shroud be put on display as a part of this arts event.

[00:14:20] And so they had an amateur photographer come and photograph the shroud.

[00:14:25] It had never been photographed before.

[00:14:27] Photography was a brand new thing.

[00:14:31] And so they hired this man named Secunda Pia.

[00:14:34] And he came and set up his photography equipment.

[00:14:37] And of course, back then it was a huge box with a small aperture.

[00:14:41] And so he made his exposure onto his glass plate, which was treated with a material to make it receptive to the image.

[00:14:51] But then he had to take this glass plate, take it home, and put it into his developing solution in his darkroom.

[00:14:58] And so when he did that, he, and the idea is this developing solution creates a photographic negative.

[00:15:04] And then from the negative, you put the photo paper on it and you get your positive image.

[00:15:08] So Secunda Pia put his photographic plate into this developing solution.

[00:15:14] And as he lifted the plate out, he saw the face on the shroud in amazing clarity.

[00:15:23] And he said in his notes, in his diary, that he nearly dropped the glass plate because it was so shocking to him what he saw.

[00:15:32] Because a normal photographic negative, the lights and the darks are reversed.

[00:15:37] And so it's very difficult to see.

[00:15:39] But in the case of the shroud, it appeared that what you see with the naked eye is acting like a photographic negative.

[00:15:48] So when he produced a photographic negative, a negative plus a negative equaled a positive image.

[00:15:54] So it wasn't an enhancement.

[00:15:56] It was just a natural part of the photography process that when he viewed that photographic negative for the first time,

[00:16:03] he saw with amazing clarity the image of the face of the man on the shroud.

[00:16:09] And so that was in 1898.

[00:16:12] And as you said, this is the great mystery.

[00:16:15] So first of all, how did this very murky image get on this organic piece of linen cloth from 2,000 years ago?

[00:16:24] And then how does it act like a photographic negative?

[00:16:27] And so this was in 1898 and it began the modern era of scientific study on the shroud.

[00:16:34] And from there, many more mysteries about the shroud were discovered, which we can discuss.

[00:16:41] Yeah, and there's been some things in the news even as recent as I think within the last year.

[00:16:48] So yeah, talk about that a little bit because before we get into the modern era,

[00:16:53] there was even some disagreement in terms of the authenticity of it going back to,

[00:16:59] and this is one of my favorite parts of Catholic history, by the way,

[00:17:01] like the division of in the two popes era.

[00:17:06] So you've got the 1300s, 1389, the Bishop of Troyes and a message to anti-Pope Clement VII, I believe it was,

[00:17:15] you know, is arguing that it's an artistic rendering.

[00:17:18] But then you've got Pope Julius II who reverses that position in the 1500s.

[00:17:23] So even within the Catholic Church, there's been some debate over the authenticity.

[00:17:28] But, you know, again, this kind of leads into what we're getting to, the modern times,

[00:17:32] like they didn't really have the technology to perform any kind of real tests either way.

[00:17:38] So it's kind of like you just kind of rolled with one opinion or the other,

[00:17:43] you know, and then just kind of went based off of whatever historical evidence you could point to.

[00:17:48] And so talk about, I believe it is, and obviously you can correct me on this,

[00:17:52] but the 1970s, I think, if I remember correctly,

[00:17:56] sort of was the first time where they really started to put it to the test.

[00:18:01] Yeah, so that's exactly right.

[00:18:03] So there were some, they were in the Air Force,

[00:18:06] and they were a group of friends who worked together,

[00:18:09] and they were very interested in the shroud,

[00:18:12] and they wanted to investigate its physical and chemical properties

[00:18:17] from a scientific perspective.

[00:18:19] And this was in, I believe, 1976.

[00:18:21] And they had access to a machine that was called a VP8 image analyzer.

[00:18:28] And at the time, that was the ultimate in technology.

[00:18:31] Today, it looks like your grandpa's old stereo equipment.

[00:18:34] But it was an analog device, and it could take lights and darks

[00:18:39] and then create almost like a terrain map or a three-dimensional graph of the image

[00:18:46] based on the lights and darks in the image.

[00:18:49] So they took the photograph of the shroud

[00:18:52] and put it into this VP8 image analyzer.

[00:18:55] And a typical photograph would leave a very, very distorted image from the VP8.

[00:19:02] But in the case of the shroud, it created almost like a three-dimensional image

[00:19:08] of the man of the shroud.

[00:19:09] So they were able to see that the image on the shroud

[00:19:14] actually wrapped the face of a real human being.

[00:19:17] The cloth draped around the shoulders and the knees and the feet

[00:19:21] of an actual three-dimensional figure to create the image.

[00:19:25] It wasn't just, it's not flat.

[00:19:29] Sometimes if you've ever seen like those death masks,

[00:19:32] they are very distorted because they're wrapped around the face.

[00:19:36] And then when they flatten them out, they're distorted.

[00:19:39] But in the case of the shroud, the image created is very lifelike

[00:19:45] because the way the image was created came directly from inside the body itself

[00:19:52] and wasn't applied on the outside.

[00:19:54] And I'll send you some pictures to try to illustrate what I'm talking about.

[00:19:59] So this group of scientists, they were so intrigued by this discovery

[00:20:06] that the shroud contained what appeared to be three-dimensional information

[00:20:11] actually encoded in it.

[00:20:12] And remember, it's just so remarkable that this is on a piece of fabric

[00:20:17] and the image itself is so superficial.

[00:20:22] It doesn't penetrate into the fabric of the shroud.

[00:20:25] So all of this three-dimensional type of information

[00:20:28] was available on this piece of fabric.

[00:20:32] And so they were so fascinated by this

[00:20:35] that they formed the Shroud of Turin Research Project team.

[00:20:39] And it was a group of scientists.

[00:20:41] They were mostly Americans, but it was an international group.

[00:20:45] And I believe there were about 24 or 25 of them

[00:20:47] who actually traveled to Turin.

[00:20:50] And it was after an exposition of the shroud in 1978.

[00:20:54] And following the exposition, the shroud was brought directly to this team.

[00:20:59] And they had set up their own laboratory to examine the shroud.

[00:21:03] And they were given five days, five days and nights, 120 hours.

[00:21:07] And they could perform any test on the shroud as long as it didn't hurt the shroud in any way.

[00:21:14] It could not be destructive.

[00:21:15] And so what they ended up doing was a lot of photography,

[00:21:19] a lot of x-ray photography, micro photography,

[00:21:23] photography under different kinds of lighting.

[00:21:26] And then they also took some, we call it sticky tape samples.

[00:21:30] So they just literally put tape onto the surface of the fabric

[00:21:34] and lifted it off to see what they could see under the microscope.

[00:21:38] So that was in 1978.

[00:21:40] And that really, as I said earlier,

[00:21:43] that was the only multidisciplinary study,

[00:21:47] in-depth scientific study of the shroud that has ever occurred.

[00:21:51] Wow, that's really interesting.

[00:21:53] I'm almost sort of surprised by that,

[00:21:56] considering the intrigue of it.

[00:21:58] But so talk about what were their initial findings

[00:22:01] as of the 70s, and we can kind of talk, you know,

[00:22:04] as we get further into history here.

[00:22:06] But what did they initially find?

[00:22:07] What were some of the, because obviously, as you mentioned,

[00:22:10] there's a lot of different unique qualities to this.

[00:22:12] There's sort of that photographic imagery.

[00:22:14] And then there's also the purported bloodstains

[00:22:17] in the areas where, you know, we see within the text of Scripture

[00:22:22] that it sort of matches the accounts,

[00:22:24] you know, portrayed in the Bible.

[00:22:26] So talk about some of, what are the things that they noticed, you know?

[00:22:30] So this was a scientific quest, and they had two goals.

[00:22:35] One is they wanted to understand what we call the bloodstains.

[00:22:39] They wanted to understand, was that blood?

[00:22:40] What are the components of those stains?

[00:22:43] And then the second thing was they wanted to understand the image.

[00:22:46] What made the image?

[00:22:49] What is the image formed out of?

[00:22:51] Just understand the properties of the image.

[00:22:54] And one of the more famous members of that team

[00:22:57] was a man named Barry Schwartz,

[00:22:59] and he was the documenting photographer for the Sturpp team

[00:23:02] and also a man from the Jewish faith.

[00:23:07] And he had so many great stories about his time with Sturpp.

[00:23:12] But he said he thought, hey, this sounds like a free trip to Italy

[00:23:16] because he figured they would go in,

[00:23:18] they would look at the shroud,

[00:23:19] and in 15 minutes they would say, oh, this is a painting or a rubbing

[00:23:22] or some sort of something that he could explain.

[00:23:26] And he said the more they looked at it, the more they studied,

[00:23:30] the more they realized this was an image

[00:23:32] that is unlike any other image that exists.

[00:23:35] And so after their five days of study,

[00:23:38] the team brought all of their results home,

[00:23:40] and then they continued to study,

[00:23:42] and then they brought in additional scientists for the Sturpp team.

[00:23:46] And they looked at things under the microscope,

[00:23:50] and they put all of their best scientific heads together

[00:23:54] to come up with some kind of a conclusion.

[00:23:56] And their ultimate conclusion was that there's no brushstrokes,

[00:24:01] there's no defined edges to this image,

[00:24:04] there's no dyes, no paints, no stains,

[00:24:07] no evidence of there being a rubbing.

[00:24:10] And so they said, all we can say at this point

[00:24:13] is that the way the image was formed remains a mystery.

[00:24:18] And they said it's up to another team of scientists in the future

[00:24:21] to understand how this image was made.

[00:24:25] So what they discovered about the image

[00:24:27] is that it's only two microns thick,

[00:24:30] which I can't even visualize two microns,

[00:24:34] but if you take a human hair and cut it in half

[00:24:37] and throw away half,

[00:24:39] and then cut the half remaining in half again

[00:24:41] and throw that away,

[00:24:42] that is about the depth of two microns.

[00:24:45] So it's so superficial.

[00:24:48] The image does not penetrate into the fabric of the shroud.

[00:24:52] It doesn't even penetrate the cell wall

[00:24:54] of the flags that makes up the linen fibers.

[00:24:58] So it's completely superficial.

[00:25:01] And it doesn't penetrate through the fabric in any way.

[00:25:05] It's only lying on the very surface of the fabric itself.

[00:25:08] So they discovered that,

[00:25:10] and they discovered that it is a chemical change

[00:25:15] in the fibers in the area where the image exists.

[00:25:20] So it's actually like almost a premature aging

[00:25:22] of the fibers in that area.

[00:25:26] And that's what they were able to discover.

[00:25:28] It's not something that was applied to the linen.

[00:25:31] It was actually a chemical change in the fibers themselves.

[00:25:36] Interesting.

[00:25:37] So obviously they even knew at that moment that,

[00:25:40] hey, you know, we're doing the best we can

[00:25:42] with the technology we have at our disposal

[00:25:44] as of 1970, you know, whatever.

[00:25:47] Knowing that, you know,

[00:25:48] obviously the scientific equipment available to them

[00:25:51] will advance over time.

[00:25:53] And so what is the next sort of study

[00:25:56] or tests that are conducted after that initial group?

[00:26:00] So the next step was in 1988.

[00:26:04] There was a team put together to make recommendations

[00:26:08] for doing a radiocarbon dating test.

[00:26:11] And the goal of that test was to ascertain

[00:26:14] the age of the fabric.

[00:26:16] Because as we've said,

[00:26:18] the provenance of the fabric is murky.

[00:26:20] And so the radiocarbon dating is the gold standard

[00:26:24] for dating an archaeological object.

[00:26:27] And so the team made recommendations.

[00:26:29] At that time, there was a new method of radiocarbon dating

[00:26:33] and an older method.

[00:26:35] They recommended that both methods be used.

[00:26:37] They also recommended that seven different laboratories

[00:26:40] be used with blind testing

[00:26:42] so that they could get the best results possible.

[00:26:46] And then the most important thing they recommended

[00:26:48] is that the samples that were utilized

[00:26:51] by the seven different laboratories

[00:26:53] be taken from seven different locations on the shroud.

[00:26:56] So not just from one spot.

[00:26:58] But in the end, none of these recommendations were followed.

[00:27:03] So as I told you,

[00:27:06] when they did the test in 1978,

[00:27:08] they photographed the shroud

[00:27:09] using a lot of different kinds of lighting.

[00:27:12] And one of the lightings that they used

[00:27:15] was an ultraviolet light.

[00:27:16] And it shows the chemical composition in colors.

[00:27:21] And when you look at the image of the area

[00:27:24] that they chose to sample for the radiocarbon dating,

[00:27:27] you can see it's an entirely different color

[00:27:30] than the rest of the shroud fabric.

[00:27:32] So they picked an area that had been,

[00:27:35] it was an area that had been handled a lot in the past.

[00:27:39] And it's thought that that area had been repaired in the past.

[00:27:43] And they cut a small piece,

[00:27:47] one piece,

[00:27:48] and then they cut the piece into different sections.

[00:27:52] So, I mean,

[00:27:53] even a middle school student knows

[00:27:55] that if you cut one piece

[00:27:57] and cut it up into different samples,

[00:27:59] it's still just one sample.

[00:28:00] Right.

[00:28:01] And so they did not follow the protocol

[00:28:03] that had been outlined at all.

[00:28:05] So the small piece was cut up

[00:28:09] into four smaller pieces,

[00:28:11] about the size of the postage stamp.

[00:28:13] And one piece was kept as a reserve

[00:28:16] for like a control.

[00:28:18] And then the other three pieces

[00:28:20] were sent to three different laboratories,

[00:28:22] not seven.

[00:28:23] They all used only one form

[00:28:26] of the radiocarbon dating.

[00:28:27] And the range of dates,

[00:28:30] possible dates for the Shroud

[00:28:32] came up between 1260 and 1390,

[00:28:35] which was Middle Ages.

[00:28:38] And also coincidentally,

[00:28:40] around that range includes

[00:28:42] the time when the Shroud

[00:28:43] was first discovered in history,

[00:28:45] in written history as well.

[00:28:47] So at that time,

[00:28:48] there were headlines all around the world

[00:28:50] that said,

[00:28:51] Shroud of Turin proven to be a fake.

[00:28:53] And I remember it very clearly

[00:28:55] because it was such devastating news.

[00:28:59] And it seems so definitive.

[00:29:02] Like, well, here's the answer.

[00:29:03] This is a medieval forgery.

[00:29:06] And so for about 10 years,

[00:29:08] the whole Shroud world kind of,

[00:29:10] I think we were in mourning.

[00:29:12] It was a very quiet time.

[00:29:14] And then slowly people started questioning

[00:29:18] this radiocarbon dating.

[00:29:19] Well, what about the area

[00:29:20] where it was sampled?

[00:29:21] Why didn't they follow the protocol?

[00:29:24] And so these questions started to emerge.

[00:29:28] And now it's in 2017,

[00:29:32] a researcher asked for the,

[00:29:34] use the freedom of information law

[00:29:37] and got the raw data

[00:29:39] from each one of these laboratories

[00:29:41] that did the radiocarbon dating.

[00:29:43] And when he was able to

[00:29:45] statistically analyze the raw data,

[00:29:48] what he discovered is that

[00:29:51] there's a very big difference

[00:29:54] between one edge of the sample

[00:29:57] to just two millimeters away

[00:29:59] or two centimeters away

[00:30:00] for the other sample.

[00:30:03] There's a 200 year difference

[00:30:05] in that sample.

[00:30:07] And one sample should be homogenous

[00:30:10] and not have that difference

[00:30:13] in the date range.

[00:30:13] So a publication published in 2019,

[00:30:19] it was actually the same publication

[00:30:21] that published the original 1988 carbon dating

[00:30:24] published in 2019 said,

[00:30:27] we can conclude now

[00:30:28] that the sample that was tested

[00:30:30] was not homogenous,

[00:30:32] meaning it wasn't the same

[00:30:34] throughout the sample

[00:30:35] and therefore not representative

[00:30:37] of the fabric,

[00:30:38] the entire fabric of the shroud.

[00:30:40] So that is a test

[00:30:43] that we can just set aside.

[00:30:45] It might have been done perfectly well

[00:30:47] and all of the labs

[00:30:49] may have been absolutely perfect

[00:30:50] in how they conducted the study,

[00:30:52] but the sample itself

[00:30:53] was not representative

[00:30:55] of the entire piece of fabric.

[00:30:57] And so we can set

[00:30:59] the radiocarbon dating aside.

[00:31:02] So where does that leave us

[00:31:04] in terms of the date

[00:31:05] of the fabric itself?

[00:31:07] So there have been other researchers

[00:31:10] who have proposed different ways

[00:31:12] of dating the fabric itself.

[00:31:14] The one that you mentioned

[00:31:15] that's been in the news recently

[00:31:17] was done, I believe, in 2022

[00:31:19] and it's now become available in the news.

[00:31:23] And so they're using different ways

[00:31:26] of measuring the lignin

[00:31:27] that remains in the flax.

[00:31:30] So because they know the rate

[00:31:32] at which it decays over time.

[00:31:34] And so they can look at the lignin

[00:31:36] that's remaining to understand

[00:31:38] how old the fabric is.

[00:31:40] So these new studies,

[00:31:42] and there's some other different studies

[00:31:43] that are being conducted as well,

[00:31:45] they are indicating the age

[00:31:47] of the fabric itself

[00:31:48] is somewhere between 50 B.C.

[00:31:51] and 100 to 200 A.D.,

[00:31:53] which, of course,

[00:31:54] the life and death

[00:31:56] and resurrection of Jesus

[00:31:57] is right in the middle

[00:31:58] of that range.

[00:32:01] Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:32:04] And it must be,

[00:32:05] as someone who is, you know,

[00:32:09] well-versed in the Shroud of Turin,

[00:32:13] kind of frustrating

[00:32:14] when some very clear,

[00:32:15] I think, guidance was suggested

[00:32:18] that it sounds like

[00:32:20] that's the way to go.

[00:32:22] That's clearly like we need to...

[00:32:23] It kind of flushes out

[00:32:26] any potential error

[00:32:27] or any question

[00:32:29] because you're taking

[00:32:30] multiple samples

[00:32:30] from multiple different areas.

[00:32:32] And we know,

[00:32:33] historically,

[00:32:34] as you mentioned earlier,

[00:32:36] that there were likely

[00:32:38] some repairs done

[00:32:39] over time.

[00:32:40] There was, I believe,

[00:32:41] a fire at some point

[00:32:42] and some melted silver

[00:32:43] ended up burning

[00:32:44] some holes through it.

[00:32:45] And so we know

[00:32:46] some patches were put in place.

[00:32:47] And so, like,

[00:32:48] given the history of it,

[00:32:50] of what we know,

[00:32:51] it seems that,

[00:32:52] yes,

[00:32:53] like,

[00:32:53] you would have to be

[00:32:54] very careful

[00:32:55] when scientifically testing it

[00:32:56] to, you know,

[00:32:59] to take that into consideration

[00:33:00] when you're testing.

[00:33:02] So that must have been

[00:33:03] highly frustrating.

[00:33:05] And it remains

[00:33:06] highly frustrating

[00:33:07] because still,

[00:33:08] to this day,

[00:33:09] if you do a Google search

[00:33:10] on the Shroud,

[00:33:11] you will get results

[00:33:12] that say,

[00:33:14] radiocarbon dating

[00:33:15] shows it's a medieval forgery.

[00:33:17] And so, I mean,

[00:33:18] that's completely erroneous

[00:33:20] that that has been set aside.

[00:33:22] And I don't even like

[00:33:24] using that word forgery

[00:33:25] because there were copies

[00:33:27] of the Shroud

[00:33:28] that were made

[00:33:29] in the Middle Ages.

[00:33:30] And I think you mentioned earlier

[00:33:32] about the Bishop of Troy

[00:33:33] and the Pope

[00:33:35] and the anti-Pope,

[00:33:36] the Avignon Pope.

[00:33:37] And perhaps they were looking

[00:33:39] at copies of the Shroud.

[00:33:41] They might not have been done

[00:33:42] for wicked or evil reasons.

[00:33:44] They might have been done

[00:33:45] for devotional reasons.

[00:33:47] So to make a copy

[00:33:48] of something

[00:33:49] that could be put

[00:33:50] in a church

[00:33:50] for devotional reasons.

[00:33:52] So I don't even like

[00:33:55] using the word forgery,

[00:33:56] but it's,

[00:33:58] if there was a medieval copy made,

[00:34:02] it clearly was meant

[00:34:04] to point to

[00:34:05] the suffering

[00:34:06] and death of Jesus

[00:34:07] because of all

[00:34:09] of the coincidences,

[00:34:10] I'm putting coincidences

[00:34:11] in quotation marks,

[00:34:12] with the narrative,

[00:34:14] the gospel narratives

[00:34:15] about the passion

[00:34:16] and death of Jesus.

[00:34:19] Yeah, so I think

[00:34:21] it's interesting.

[00:34:21] I mean, it just goes to show

[00:34:22] it's a great example

[00:34:23] of how just quickly

[00:34:26] technology has advanced

[00:34:27] over the last hundred years,

[00:34:29] just from the 70s

[00:34:30] till, you know,

[00:34:31] the late 2000s

[00:34:32] and so on.

[00:34:34] And so, you know,

[00:34:35] no doubt they will continue

[00:34:36] to develop technology

[00:34:38] in such a way that,

[00:34:39] you know,

[00:34:39] they can conduct

[00:34:40] additional tests

[00:34:41] down the road

[00:34:41] and do so in a way

[00:34:43] because I think

[00:34:44] one of the biggest

[00:34:45] struggles that I have

[00:34:46] as somebody who's

[00:34:47] a great lover

[00:34:47] of history

[00:34:48] is so often

[00:34:50] these tests

[00:34:51] that we historically

[00:34:51] have access to

[00:34:53] result in at least

[00:34:54] some damaging

[00:34:56] of the material itself

[00:34:57] that it's testing

[00:34:58] and so there's this

[00:34:59] kind of give and take

[00:35:00] in terms of like,

[00:35:01] well, we want to know

[00:35:03] the answers

[00:35:03] but we also have

[00:35:04] to acknowledge

[00:35:05] the fact that we are

[00:35:06] going to have to

[00:35:06] destroy a certain

[00:35:08] piece of this fabric

[00:35:09] but yet,

[00:35:10] as we know,

[00:35:11] we've seen throughout

[00:35:12] history just in terms

[00:35:13] of the advancement

[00:35:14] of like DNA testing,

[00:35:15] for example,

[00:35:16] and when it comes

[00:35:17] to like crime scenes

[00:35:18] and things like that,

[00:35:19] that it's continued

[00:35:21] to advance to the point

[00:35:22] where that's no longer

[00:35:24] as much the case anymore

[00:35:26] and so talk about

[00:35:27] maybe some of the more

[00:35:28] recent,

[00:35:29] the most recent

[00:35:30] studies that have been

[00:35:31] done and also I'm

[00:35:32] kind of also fascinated

[00:35:33] by the fact that

[00:35:34] if we've got blood

[00:35:36] stains potentially

[00:35:36] on the clot,

[00:35:37] that feels like

[00:35:38] it should be fairly easy

[00:35:39] to test, right?

[00:35:42] So, you raise

[00:35:43] a lot of really

[00:35:44] great issues.

[00:35:45] The first one

[00:35:46] is about

[00:35:47] that any

[00:35:49] destructive testing,

[00:35:51] we want to avoid

[00:35:52] that.

[00:35:52] We don't want

[00:35:53] to do anything

[00:35:53] that could potentially

[00:35:54] damage or harm

[00:35:55] the shroud in any way.

[00:35:56] We want to make sure

[00:35:57] it's available

[00:35:58] for all future

[00:35:59] generations

[00:36:00] and so the testing

[00:36:01] needs to be very

[00:36:02] conservative

[00:36:03] and protective

[00:36:04] of the shroud.

[00:36:05] So, those

[00:36:07] additional tests

[00:36:08] that I mentioned

[00:36:09] that are being

[00:36:09] conducted,

[00:36:10] they're all using

[00:36:12] techniques that

[00:36:13] are not destructive.

[00:36:15] As far as I know,

[00:36:16] there has been

[00:36:17] no collection

[00:36:18] of any

[00:36:19] additional samples

[00:36:20] of any material

[00:36:21] from the shroud

[00:36:22] since 1988.

[00:36:23] The possible

[00:36:24] exception to that

[00:36:25] is in 2002,

[00:36:27] there was a

[00:36:28] restoration performed

[00:36:29] on the shroud

[00:36:29] and so as you

[00:36:30] mentioned,

[00:36:31] it was in a

[00:36:32] terrible fire

[00:36:33] in 1532

[00:36:35] and the shroud

[00:36:37] was inside

[00:36:38] of a silver

[00:36:38] reliquary box

[00:36:40] and the fire

[00:36:41] was so hot

[00:36:42] that some of

[00:36:42] the metal

[00:36:43] from that box

[00:36:44] melted

[00:36:44] and the shroud

[00:36:46] was folded up

[00:36:47] and some of

[00:36:47] that molten

[00:36:47] silver or

[00:36:48] molten metal

[00:36:49] dropped on

[00:36:50] the shroud

[00:36:51] fabric

[00:36:51] and burned

[00:36:52] holes all

[00:36:53] the way

[00:36:54] through it

[00:36:54] and then also

[00:36:55] there are

[00:36:56] singes that

[00:36:57] go along

[00:36:57] the areas

[00:36:58] where the shroud

[00:36:59] was folded

[00:36:59] and as I

[00:37:00] mentioned,

[00:37:01] when you look

[00:37:01] at the shroud,

[00:37:02] those are the

[00:37:02] things that

[00:37:03] really catch your

[00:37:04] eye

[00:37:04] and in the

[00:37:05] photographs from

[00:37:06] 1978,

[00:37:06] those big

[00:37:07] old patches

[00:37:08] that were

[00:37:09] sewn on

[00:37:10] in 1534

[00:37:11] are very evident

[00:37:12] in the photographs.

[00:37:14] So in 2002,

[00:37:16] there was a lot

[00:37:17] of concern

[00:37:18] that there

[00:37:18] were ash

[00:37:20] and cinders

[00:37:23] trapped

[00:37:23] in the patches

[00:37:26] and so the

[00:37:27] patches were

[00:37:28] very,

[00:37:29] very carefully

[00:37:29] removed

[00:37:30] and the

[00:37:31] areas of the

[00:37:32] fabric that

[00:37:32] were singed

[00:37:33] were cut

[00:37:34] away and

[00:37:35] so all

[00:37:35] of those

[00:37:35] little pieces

[00:37:36] were preserved

[00:37:37] so that

[00:37:38] they would

[00:37:38] be available

[00:37:39] for future

[00:37:40] testing.

[00:37:41] So that

[00:37:42] has been

[00:37:43] removed from

[00:37:43] the shroud

[00:37:44] since 1988

[00:37:45] but as far

[00:37:46] as I know,

[00:37:46] no other

[00:37:47] pieces have

[00:37:48] been removed

[00:37:48] from the

[00:37:48] shroud for

[00:37:49] additional

[00:37:50] testing.

[00:37:50] That's why

[00:37:51] I keep

[00:37:51] saying there

[00:37:52] really hasn't

[00:37:53] been a

[00:37:53] multidisciplinary

[00:37:54] study of

[00:37:55] the shroud

[00:37:56] since 1978.

[00:37:58] So people

[00:37:59] who are doing

[00:38:00] studies today,

[00:38:01] they're either

[00:38:01] using materials

[00:38:03] that were

[00:38:03] gathered

[00:38:04] 2002 or

[00:38:05] before or

[00:38:07] they're just

[00:38:08] using things

[00:38:09] like photographs

[00:38:10] and slides

[00:38:12] and things like

[00:38:13] that that are

[00:38:13] available to

[00:38:14] people.

[00:38:16] Yeah,

[00:38:16] that's still

[00:38:17] very interesting

[00:38:18] because again

[00:38:18] as technology

[00:38:19] evolves,

[00:38:20] you know,

[00:38:20] we have

[00:38:20] different tests

[00:38:21] at our disposal

[00:38:22] that we didn't

[00:38:22] before that could

[00:38:24] lend some

[00:38:25] credence to

[00:38:27] the shroud.

[00:38:28] So what are

[00:38:29] the most

[00:38:30] recent tests

[00:38:31] that they've

[00:38:31] done and

[00:38:32] what are

[00:38:32] some of

[00:38:33] the conclusions

[00:38:33] that they've

[00:38:34] come up with?

[00:38:35] Well,

[00:38:36] I kind of

[00:38:36] keep skirting

[00:38:37] around the

[00:38:37] most recent

[00:38:38] tests because

[00:38:39] they did

[00:38:40] do some

[00:38:40] tests in

[00:38:41] 2002 and

[00:38:42] they've been

[00:38:43] widely reported

[00:38:43] but they

[00:38:45] also made

[00:38:45] a lot of

[00:38:46] big assumptions

[00:38:46] about the

[00:38:48] control for

[00:38:49] the shroud

[00:38:50] during the

[00:38:51] time to

[00:38:51] draw the

[00:38:52] conclusions

[00:38:52] that they

[00:38:53] made.

[00:38:53] And so

[00:38:55] I think

[00:38:56] I'd just

[00:38:56] like to

[00:38:57] say I

[00:38:57] think further

[00:38:57] tests need

[00:38:58] to be

[00:38:58] done and

[00:38:59] I think

[00:39:00] they also

[00:39:00] need to

[00:39:01] be peer

[00:39:01] reviewed

[00:39:01] in the

[00:39:02] scientific

[00:39:03] community

[00:39:03] and they

[00:39:05] need to

[00:39:06] make sure

[00:39:07] that the

[00:39:07] assumptions

[00:39:08] that they're

[00:39:08] making

[00:39:08] are valid.

[00:39:11] So just

[00:39:11] as an

[00:39:12] example,

[00:39:13] in one

[00:39:14] of the

[00:39:14] tests,

[00:39:15] they were

[00:39:15] making

[00:39:15] assumptions

[00:39:16] that the

[00:39:16] shroud was

[00:39:17] kept in

[00:39:17] a temperature

[00:39:18] controlled

[00:39:19] environment

[00:39:19] for the

[00:39:21] entirety

[00:39:21] of its

[00:39:22] existence

[00:39:22] and so

[00:39:24] that's

[00:39:24] probably

[00:39:25] not a

[00:39:25] good

[00:39:25] assumption.

[00:39:26] So that

[00:39:27] affects the

[00:39:28] validity

[00:39:29] of any

[00:39:30] conclusions

[00:39:31] that you

[00:39:31] make.

[00:39:33] Yeah,

[00:39:33] very much

[00:39:34] so.

[00:39:34] And yeah,

[00:39:35] it just

[00:39:36] feels like

[00:39:37] we see

[00:39:38] some of

[00:39:38] the mistakes

[00:39:39] that were

[00:39:39] made in

[00:39:39] the past,

[00:39:40] you know,

[00:39:40] some of

[00:39:41] the suggestions

[00:39:41] that were

[00:39:42] not followed

[00:39:42] and it

[00:39:42] feels like

[00:39:43] this would

[00:39:43] be pretty

[00:39:44] easy to

[00:39:45] rectify,

[00:39:46] you know,

[00:39:47] in a future

[00:39:47] study with

[00:39:48] the right

[00:39:48] people in

[00:39:49] place and

[00:39:50] again,

[00:39:50] the right

[00:39:50] controls in

[00:39:51] place.

[00:39:52] So,

[00:39:54] one of

[00:39:55] the questions

[00:39:55] I think

[00:39:55] I have

[00:39:56] is,

[00:39:56] you know,

[00:39:56] is it

[00:39:57] possible for

[00:39:57] I guess

[00:39:59] the shroud

[00:39:59] to still

[00:40:01] have a

[00:40:01] role for

[00:40:01] the faithful

[00:40:02] regardless

[00:40:03] of its

[00:40:05] authenticity?

[00:40:05] Because I

[00:40:06] think at

[00:40:06] the end

[00:40:06] of the

[00:40:06] day,

[00:40:07] sometimes

[00:40:07] it's,

[00:40:07] you know,

[00:40:08] we talk

[00:40:08] about legends

[00:40:09] a lot on

[00:40:09] this podcast

[00:40:10] and sometimes

[00:40:13] getting to

[00:40:14] the historical

[00:40:16] truth sort

[00:40:17] of takes

[00:40:18] away from

[00:40:19] the power

[00:40:20] behind that

[00:40:21] legend and

[00:40:22] the positive

[00:40:22] effect it

[00:40:23] may have

[00:40:24] on the

[00:40:24] people who

[00:40:25] are listening

[00:40:25] and recounting

[00:40:27] this story.

[00:40:28] And so,

[00:40:28] is that,

[00:40:29] do you feel

[00:40:29] like that's

[00:40:30] something that

[00:40:30] would be

[00:40:31] true for

[00:40:32] the shroud

[00:40:32] as well?

[00:40:33] Or is it

[00:40:33] important to

[00:40:36] authenticate it?

[00:40:37] So,

[00:40:38] I have two

[00:40:39] responses to

[00:40:39] that.

[00:40:40] One is,

[00:40:41] we've been

[00:40:41] talking about

[00:40:42] one test,

[00:40:43] the radiocarbon

[00:40:44] dating test,

[00:40:45] to date the

[00:40:45] age of the

[00:40:46] linen fabric.

[00:40:48] That's one

[00:40:48] test that we

[00:40:49] can set aside.

[00:40:50] There are a

[00:40:51] multitude of

[00:40:52] other tests

[00:40:53] that point to

[00:40:54] the authenticity

[00:40:54] of the shroud.

[00:40:55] In fact,

[00:40:56] the preponderance

[00:40:57] of the evidence

[00:40:58] about the

[00:40:59] shroud is

[00:41:00] significant

[00:41:01] so that we

[00:41:02] can,

[00:41:02] I feel like

[00:41:04] we can say

[00:41:04] with a lot

[00:41:05] of comfort

[00:41:06] that this

[00:41:08] is the

[00:41:08] authentic

[00:41:09] burial cloth

[00:41:10] of Jesus

[00:41:11] of Nazareth.

[00:41:12] So,

[00:41:13] because of

[00:41:13] the preponderance

[00:41:14] of all of

[00:41:15] the other

[00:41:15] evidence,

[00:41:16] and that

[00:41:17] totally outweighs

[00:41:19] the few

[00:41:20] things that

[00:41:20] you could

[00:41:21] bring up

[00:41:22] from a

[00:41:22] skeptical

[00:41:22] point of

[00:41:23] view.

[00:41:23] So,

[00:41:23] that's one

[00:41:24] thing from

[00:41:25] kind of

[00:41:25] more of

[00:41:25] a scientific

[00:41:26] point of

[00:41:26] view.

[00:41:27] But I

[00:41:27] think the

[00:41:28] question that

[00:41:28] you're asking

[00:41:29] is to get

[00:41:29] out,

[00:41:30] what is the

[00:41:30] relevance of

[00:41:31] this to

[00:41:32] people of

[00:41:32] faith?

[00:41:33] And,

[00:41:33] actually,

[00:41:34] that's my

[00:41:34] favorite part

[00:41:35] of talking

[00:41:36] about the

[00:41:37] shroud,

[00:41:37] because it

[00:41:38] is such a

[00:41:39] way to

[00:41:40] access what

[00:41:42] Jesus suffered

[00:41:43] for us,

[00:41:45] because the

[00:41:45] Gospels are

[00:41:46] very vague.

[00:41:47] And I

[00:41:48] actually just

[00:41:49] went to a

[00:41:49] lecture last

[00:41:50] night where

[00:41:51] they were

[00:41:51] showing a

[00:41:52] piece of

[00:41:52] art that

[00:41:53] they said

[00:41:53] was the

[00:41:54] very first

[00:41:55] time they

[00:41:55] think the

[00:41:56] crucifixion of

[00:41:56] Jesus was

[00:41:57] depicted in

[00:41:58] art.

[00:41:58] It was

[00:41:58] very small,

[00:41:59] and it

[00:42:01] was in

[00:42:01] the 5th

[00:42:02] century before

[00:42:04] Jesus was

[00:42:05] ever depicted

[00:42:06] as crucified.

[00:42:08] And the

[00:42:09] lecture was

[00:42:10] by Bishop

[00:42:11] Barron,

[00:42:12] and what he

[00:42:12] was saying

[00:42:12] was that

[00:42:13] the institutional

[00:42:14] knowledge of

[00:42:15] people was

[00:42:17] so,

[00:42:18] crucifixion was

[00:42:19] a part of

[00:42:19] their knowledge,

[00:42:21] of their

[00:42:22] ancestry,

[00:42:23] and it was

[00:42:24] so gruesome

[00:42:25] and so cruel

[00:42:26] and so violent

[00:42:26] that they

[00:42:27] did not want

[00:42:27] to remember

[00:42:28] it,

[00:42:28] they did not

[00:42:29] want to

[00:42:29] replicate it.

[00:42:30] But starting

[00:42:31] in about the

[00:42:32] 5th century,

[00:42:32] that was

[00:42:33] starting to

[00:42:34] be lost,

[00:42:35] and so

[00:42:35] crucifixion was

[00:42:36] beginning to

[00:42:36] be depicted

[00:42:37] in artwork.

[00:42:40] And that was

[00:42:41] very revelatory

[00:42:42] to me because

[00:42:43] I've always

[00:42:43] wondered,

[00:42:44] why are the

[00:42:45] gospels so

[00:42:45] vague?

[00:42:46] They say,

[00:42:47] Pontius Pilate

[00:42:48] condemned Jesus

[00:42:49] to death and

[00:42:50] handed him over

[00:42:50] to be crucified,

[00:42:52] and not much

[00:42:53] more.

[00:42:53] I mean,

[00:42:54] we get that

[00:42:54] he handed

[00:42:56] him over to

[00:42:56] be scourged,

[00:42:57] and then

[00:42:58] they let

[00:42:58] him out

[00:42:59] to the

[00:42:59] place of

[00:42:59] execution.

[00:43:00] But they

[00:43:01] don't tell

[00:43:01] us,

[00:43:01] what was

[00:43:02] that scourging

[00:43:02] like?

[00:43:03] What was

[00:43:04] crucifixion

[00:43:05] like?

[00:43:05] And people

[00:43:06] didn't know

[00:43:07] after Constantine

[00:43:09] outlawed

[00:43:09] crucifixion

[00:43:10] with the

[00:43:11] Edict of

[00:43:12] Milan,

[00:43:13] we didn't

[00:43:13] know what

[00:43:13] crucifixion

[00:43:14] meant,

[00:43:15] and we

[00:43:15] didn't know

[00:43:16] how it

[00:43:16] was carried

[00:43:16] out.

[00:43:17] And so

[00:43:18] in the

[00:43:18] artwork of

[00:43:19] the Middle

[00:43:19] Ages,

[00:43:19] we have

[00:43:20] the nails

[00:43:21] going through

[00:43:21] the palms

[00:43:22] of the

[00:43:22] hands,

[00:43:23] and we

[00:43:24] know now

[00:43:24] from studies

[00:43:25] done on

[00:43:26] the shroud

[00:43:26] that the

[00:43:27] nail wounds,

[00:43:28] actually the

[00:43:29] exit wound,

[00:43:29] was the

[00:43:30] wrist,

[00:43:30] because the

[00:43:31] palms were

[00:43:32] not sufficient

[00:43:33] to hold the

[00:43:33] body weight

[00:43:34] of a human

[00:43:36] form.

[00:43:37] So I'm

[00:43:38] bringing all

[00:43:39] of this

[00:43:39] up because

[00:43:40] the shroud

[00:43:41] gives us

[00:43:42] a way to

[00:43:43] access what

[00:43:44] Jesus endured,

[00:43:46] and it

[00:43:47] gives us a

[00:43:47] way to

[00:43:48] ponder on

[00:43:49] his suffering,

[00:43:50] and not

[00:43:52] to be morbid,

[00:43:53] but to

[00:43:53] really understand

[00:43:55] what Jesus

[00:43:56] took on

[00:43:56] for us,

[00:43:57] what our

[00:43:57] salvation

[00:43:58] means.

[00:43:59] And when

[00:44:00] people start

[00:44:00] learning about

[00:44:01] what the

[00:44:03] agony truly,

[00:44:05] what Jesus

[00:44:06] incurred in

[00:44:07] that agony,

[00:44:08] it's very

[00:44:09] moving,

[00:44:10] and it's

[00:44:11] also very

[00:44:12] personal.

[00:44:13] And then

[00:44:14] we see

[00:44:15] this body

[00:44:16] of Jesus

[00:44:17] being wrapped

[00:44:17] in this

[00:44:18] very valuable,

[00:44:19] priceless piece

[00:44:20] of fabric,

[00:44:21] and we see

[00:44:22] him being

[00:44:22] buried in

[00:44:23] a tomb,

[00:44:24] a new

[00:44:24] tomb,

[00:44:25] so he's

[00:44:26] died this

[00:44:26] terrible,

[00:44:28] ignominious

[00:44:28] death,

[00:44:29] but then

[00:44:30] he's being

[00:44:30] treated like

[00:44:31] the precious

[00:44:32] king and

[00:44:33] priest and

[00:44:34] prophet that

[00:44:35] we know from

[00:44:36] our faith

[00:44:36] that he is.

[00:44:37] And then

[00:44:38] we have

[00:44:39] this

[00:44:39] mysterious,

[00:44:41] miraculous

[00:44:41] image that

[00:44:42] cannot be

[00:44:43] explained by

[00:44:44] science,

[00:44:45] and it

[00:44:46] leads you to

[00:44:47] the only

[00:44:48] natural

[00:44:48] explanation is

[00:44:49] it must

[00:44:51] have been

[00:44:51] formed at

[00:44:52] the moment

[00:44:52] of his

[00:44:53] resurrection.

[00:44:53] That is

[00:44:54] the only

[00:44:55] explanation,

[00:44:56] in my

[00:44:57] mind,

[00:44:57] for how

[00:44:58] this image

[00:44:58] could be

[00:44:59] on there.

[00:44:59] And so

[00:45:01] it's a

[00:45:01] journey,

[00:45:02] it's a

[00:45:02] journey going

[00:45:03] down into

[00:45:03] the depths

[00:45:04] of the

[00:45:05] suffering that

[00:45:05] Jesus endured,

[00:45:07] waiting patiently

[00:45:08] through the

[00:45:08] Sabbath in

[00:45:10] this time of

[00:45:11] quiet and

[00:45:12] mourning,

[00:45:14] and then

[00:45:14] this victorious

[00:45:15] triumph on

[00:45:16] Easter Sunday

[00:45:17] and this

[00:45:18] miraculous

[00:45:20] resurrection

[00:45:21] that left

[00:45:22] this image

[00:45:23] behind,

[00:45:23] that gives

[00:45:24] us such

[00:45:25] an entryway

[00:45:27] into

[00:45:28] understanding

[00:45:28] our faith.

[00:45:30] Yeah,

[00:45:31] it is

[00:45:31] interesting.

[00:45:32] I kind

[00:45:32] of go back

[00:45:33] and forth

[00:45:33] often when

[00:45:34] it comes

[00:45:35] to the

[00:45:35] passion part

[00:45:37] of the story

[00:45:38] of Jesus

[00:45:38] because,

[00:45:39] you know,

[00:45:39] on one hand

[00:45:40] it's like,

[00:45:40] you know,

[00:45:41] are we

[00:45:41] dwelling too

[00:45:42] much on

[00:45:42] the morbidity

[00:45:43] of the

[00:45:44] situation?

[00:45:45] But on the

[00:45:45] other hand,

[00:45:46] it really

[00:45:47] is just

[00:45:47] this story

[00:45:48] of,

[00:45:49] like,

[00:45:50] Jesus or

[00:45:51] God in

[00:45:52] the form

[00:45:53] of a human

[00:45:53] being allowing

[00:45:54] free will to

[00:45:55] carry out to

[00:45:56] such an extent

[00:45:57] that God's

[00:45:58] own people

[00:45:58] are literally

[00:45:59] killing God

[00:46:00] and torturing

[00:46:02] God in such

[00:46:02] a way that

[00:46:03] he's even

[00:46:04] allowing us

[00:46:06] to carry out

[00:46:07] that free will

[00:46:07] to the

[00:46:08] greatest

[00:46:09] extent.

[00:46:10] And it's

[00:46:11] like,

[00:46:11] wow,

[00:46:11] you know,

[00:46:12] so it is

[00:46:13] kind of

[00:46:13] interesting

[00:46:13] and I

[00:46:14] often kind

[00:46:14] of,

[00:46:15] I wrestle

[00:46:15] with that,

[00:46:16] you know.

[00:46:18] One of the

[00:46:19] things I want

[00:46:19] to ask you

[00:46:19] before we

[00:46:20] go though

[00:46:20] is one

[00:46:21] of the

[00:46:21] things I

[00:46:22] almost forgot

[00:46:22] about this

[00:46:23] too is if

[00:46:24] you could

[00:46:24] speak to

[00:46:25] the,

[00:46:25] so the

[00:46:26] image on

[00:46:27] the shroud,

[00:46:28] one of

[00:46:28] the critiques

[00:46:29] that often

[00:46:29] it gets

[00:46:30] is the

[00:46:31] proportions

[00:46:32] of the

[00:46:33] features

[00:46:34] and the

[00:46:35] critics

[00:46:35] would say

[00:46:36] that the

[00:46:36] proportions

[00:46:37] are not

[00:46:37] in line

[00:46:38] with like

[00:46:39] the normal

[00:46:40] proportions

[00:46:40] of a human

[00:46:41] being.

[00:46:41] So I'm

[00:46:42] sure that

[00:46:43] much study

[00:46:44] has gone

[00:46:44] into

[00:46:45] that part

[00:46:45] of it.

[00:46:46] What would

[00:46:46] you say

[00:46:47] to that

[00:46:47] part?

[00:46:48] So that

[00:46:49] criticism

[00:46:50] usually comes

[00:46:51] to the

[00:46:51] images around

[00:46:52] the hands

[00:46:53] of the

[00:46:54] man of

[00:46:54] the shroud

[00:46:55] and people

[00:46:56] say,

[00:46:56] oh his

[00:46:56] fingers are

[00:46:57] way too

[00:46:57] long,

[00:46:58] that's not

[00:46:59] a normal

[00:46:59] length

[00:46:59] of fingers

[00:47:00] and so

[00:47:01] there's

[00:47:02] some

[00:47:04] understanding

[00:47:04] that maybe

[00:47:05] what is

[00:47:06] being seen

[00:47:07] is actually

[00:47:08] the bones

[00:47:09] of the

[00:47:09] fingers

[00:47:10] of the

[00:47:10] man.

[00:47:11] So

[00:47:11] there's

[00:47:12] and this

[00:47:13] is a

[00:47:13] great area

[00:47:13] where further

[00:47:14] study needs

[00:47:15] to be

[00:47:15] performed.

[00:47:16] Are we

[00:47:17] seeing some

[00:47:18] of the

[00:47:18] internal

[00:47:18] structures

[00:47:19] of his

[00:47:20] body

[00:47:21] in this

[00:47:22] image?

[00:47:23] Because this

[00:47:24] image formation,

[00:47:25] we don't know

[00:47:25] how it

[00:47:26] happened,

[00:47:26] we don't

[00:47:27] know what

[00:47:29] kind of

[00:47:30] radiation

[00:47:31] or what

[00:47:32] kind of

[00:47:32] light might

[00:47:33] have caused

[00:47:34] this image

[00:47:34] to be formed,

[00:47:35] so is it

[00:47:35] acting somewhat

[00:47:36] like an

[00:47:37] x-ray so

[00:47:38] that we can

[00:47:39] see internal

[00:47:40] structures?

[00:47:41] some

[00:47:42] people feel

[00:47:42] like they

[00:47:43] can see

[00:47:43] the teeth

[00:47:44] of the

[00:47:45] man,

[00:47:45] some

[00:47:45] people say

[00:47:46] they can

[00:47:46] see the

[00:47:46] backbone

[00:47:47] and so

[00:47:49] is that

[00:47:52] distorting

[00:47:52] the image

[00:47:53] in a way

[00:47:54] that makes

[00:47:54] people think

[00:47:55] that it's

[00:47:55] not accurate?

[00:47:56] We haven't

[00:47:57] really talked

[00:47:57] much about

[00:47:58] the blood

[00:47:59] but the

[00:47:59] blood is

[00:48:00] an area

[00:48:00] that has

[00:48:01] been studied

[00:48:02] extensively

[00:48:03] in the

[00:48:04] images

[00:48:04] and so

[00:48:06] what has

[00:48:06] been

[00:48:06] discovered

[00:48:07] is that

[00:48:08] there's

[00:48:09] the blood

[00:48:09] stains

[00:48:09] themselves

[00:48:10] and then

[00:48:11] when the

[00:48:11] shroud was

[00:48:12] photographed

[00:48:12] under

[00:48:13] UV fluorescent

[00:48:14] lighting

[00:48:14] there were

[00:48:15] halo serums

[00:48:17] that you

[00:48:18] could only

[00:48:18] see with

[00:48:19] that particular

[00:48:20] lighting

[00:48:20] and what

[00:48:21] that shows

[00:48:22] is that

[00:48:23] the blood

[00:48:23] acted

[00:48:24] exactly like

[00:48:25] blood acts

[00:48:26] in life

[00:48:28] that when

[00:48:28] blood is

[00:48:29] spilled

[00:48:30] then as

[00:48:31] it starts

[00:48:31] to coagulate

[00:48:33] and form

[00:48:34] into a

[00:48:34] scab

[00:48:35] it kind

[00:48:35] of retracts

[00:48:36] and so

[00:48:37] it comes

[00:48:38] together

[00:48:38] and then

[00:48:39] it leaves

[00:48:40] a clear

[00:48:40] halo

[00:48:41] around

[00:48:42] the actual

[00:48:43] retracted

[00:48:44] blood

[00:48:44] and so

[00:48:45] on the

[00:48:45] wounds

[00:48:46] when they

[00:48:46] are

[00:48:46] photographed

[00:48:47] in UV

[00:48:48] fluorescent

[00:48:48] light

[00:48:48] you can

[00:48:49] see these

[00:48:49] serum

[00:48:50] halos

[00:48:51] you can't

[00:48:51] see them

[00:48:52] with the

[00:48:52] naked eye

[00:48:52] but under

[00:48:54] that lighting

[00:48:54] you can

[00:48:55] see it

[00:48:55] and just

[00:48:57] kind of

[00:48:57] going back

[00:48:57] to your

[00:48:58] question about

[00:48:58] the fate

[00:48:59] one of the

[00:49:00] most fascinating

[00:49:01] places where

[00:49:02] this is

[00:49:03] very clear

[00:49:04] is in the

[00:49:05] side wound

[00:49:05] so the

[00:49:06] scriptures tell

[00:49:07] us that

[00:49:07] that the

[00:49:08] roman soldier

[00:49:08] came to

[00:49:09] jesus

[00:49:09] he did

[00:49:10] not break

[00:49:10] his legs

[00:49:11] because he

[00:49:11] was already

[00:49:12] dead

[00:49:12] which is

[00:49:13] fulfillment

[00:49:14] of the

[00:49:14] the passover

[00:49:15] lamb

[00:49:16] that he

[00:49:16] should be

[00:49:16] unblemished

[00:49:17] none of

[00:49:17] his bones

[00:49:18] shall be

[00:49:18] broken

[00:49:18] but then

[00:49:20] he pierced

[00:49:20] his side

[00:49:21] with this

[00:49:22] with this

[00:49:23] lancia

[00:49:23] and again

[00:49:25] it's the

[00:49:25] gospel writer

[00:49:26] john

[00:49:26] he's at

[00:49:27] the foot

[00:49:27] of the

[00:49:27] clock

[00:49:28] cross

[00:49:28] he's an

[00:49:28] eyewitness

[00:49:29] and he

[00:49:30] tells us

[00:49:31] three times

[00:49:32] i saw this

[00:49:33] for myself

[00:49:33] and i want

[00:49:34] you to know

[00:49:35] this is what

[00:49:35] i saw

[00:49:36] that when

[00:49:37] the side of

[00:49:38] jesus was

[00:49:39] pierced

[00:49:39] blood and

[00:49:40] water

[00:49:40] flowed forth

[00:49:41] and people

[00:49:42] have always

[00:49:43] said well

[00:49:43] how can that

[00:49:44] even be

[00:49:44] why would

[00:49:45] blood and

[00:49:45] water

[00:49:46] flow out

[00:49:46] well we

[00:49:47] understand

[00:49:47] now a lot

[00:49:48] through

[00:49:49] study of

[00:49:49] the shroud

[00:49:50] that jesus

[00:49:51] probably died

[00:49:52] from a

[00:49:52] dramatic heart

[00:49:53] incident

[00:49:54] and that

[00:49:55] because of

[00:49:56] all the

[00:49:56] torture he

[00:49:57] endured

[00:49:57] that his

[00:49:58] there was

[00:49:59] probably a

[00:49:59] big buildup

[00:50:00] of fluid

[00:50:01] around his

[00:50:01] heart

[00:50:02] and so

[00:50:03] when that

[00:50:03] pericardium

[00:50:04] was pierced

[00:50:05] that that

[00:50:06] that fluid

[00:50:06] that clear

[00:50:08] liquid serum

[00:50:09] flowed out

[00:50:10] and would have

[00:50:10] looked to

[00:50:11] john like

[00:50:12] water

[00:50:12] and then

[00:50:13] followed by

[00:50:14] the the

[00:50:15] heavy dense

[00:50:16] red blood

[00:50:17] and that

[00:50:18] was not

[00:50:19] visible until

[00:50:20] it was

[00:50:20] photographed

[00:50:21] in 1978

[00:50:22] on the

[00:50:22] shroud

[00:50:23] under

[00:50:24] uv fluorescent

[00:50:25] lighting

[00:50:25] and so

[00:50:27] i bring that

[00:50:28] up because

[00:50:29] it's

[00:50:29] we have it

[00:50:30] in the

[00:50:30] scriptures

[00:50:31] and now

[00:50:32] we have

[00:50:32] it where

[00:50:32] we can

[00:50:33] see it

[00:50:33] on the

[00:50:34] shroud

[00:50:34] and it's

[00:50:35] a way

[00:50:35] for us

[00:50:36] we don't

[00:50:36] need to

[00:50:37] test the

[00:50:37] scriptures

[00:50:38] we take

[00:50:38] the scriptures

[00:50:39] on faith

[00:50:40] but it's

[00:50:41] a way for

[00:50:41] us to

[00:50:42] to see

[00:50:43] the truth

[00:50:44] of what

[00:50:45] john was

[00:50:45] telling us

[00:50:45] that blood

[00:50:46] and water

[00:50:47] flowed out

[00:50:47] and and

[00:50:49] Jesus to

[00:50:50] me this is

[00:50:50] so significant

[00:50:51] because Jesus

[00:50:52] kept saying

[00:50:52] i will

[00:50:53] rebuild the

[00:50:54] temple

[00:50:54] we'll destroy

[00:50:54] the temple

[00:50:55] and i will

[00:50:55] rebuild it

[00:50:56] in three

[00:50:56] days

[00:50:57] and you

[00:50:58] have to

[00:50:58] picture the

[00:50:59] temple that

[00:50:59] the people

[00:51:00] were thinking

[00:51:00] of herod's

[00:51:01] temple the

[00:51:01] first century

[00:51:02] temple and

[00:51:04] on the right

[00:51:04] side of that

[00:51:05] temple was a

[00:51:06] drain and

[00:51:07] so all of

[00:51:08] those little

[00:51:08] lambs that

[00:51:09] were coming

[00:51:10] to be

[00:51:10] sacrificed

[00:51:11] you know they

[00:51:11] would slit

[00:51:12] their throats

[00:51:12] and drain the

[00:51:13] blood out

[00:51:14] all of that

[00:51:15] blood would

[00:51:16] be washed

[00:51:16] down the

[00:51:17] drain and

[00:51:18] that blood

[00:51:19] and water

[00:51:19] would pour

[00:51:20] out the

[00:51:20] right side

[00:51:21] of the

[00:51:21] temple and

[00:51:22] we see that

[00:51:23] exactly happening

[00:51:25] on the body

[00:51:26] of Jesus his

[00:51:27] blood and water

[00:51:27] flowing out and

[00:51:28] then we also see

[00:51:29] it on the

[00:51:30] shroud so it's

[00:51:31] a way for us

[00:51:32] to explore our

[00:51:33] faith in a

[00:51:34] different way

[00:51:35] in a way that

[00:51:37] is open to

[00:51:38] questioning and

[00:51:39] probing and

[00:51:40] it's in no way

[00:51:41] in conflict with

[00:51:43] with the

[00:51:43] scriptures

[00:51:44] yeah and

[00:51:45] not to

[00:51:46] mention you

[00:51:46] know the

[00:51:47] how many

[00:51:47] references to

[00:51:48] Jesus as

[00:51:49] the lamb

[00:51:49] you know

[00:51:51] that's that

[00:51:51] and so I

[00:51:53] know we're

[00:51:53] running short

[00:51:54] on time here

[00:51:54] but I just

[00:51:55] want to give

[00:51:55] time to to

[00:51:56] make sure that

[00:51:57] is there anything

[00:51:57] else that we

[00:51:58] haven't covered

[00:51:59] that you think

[00:51:59] is important for

[00:52:00] listeners to

[00:52:00] know

[00:52:02] there's so

[00:52:02] many things

[00:52:03] about the

[00:52:03] shroud it's a

[00:52:05] it's been a

[00:52:05] lifelong topic

[00:52:06] of interest for

[00:52:07] me and it's the

[00:52:08] kind of thing

[00:52:09] where you can go

[00:52:10] in multiple

[00:52:11] directions so

[00:52:12] you can just

[00:52:12] pick a topic

[00:52:13] that is of

[00:52:14] interest to

[00:52:14] you you have

[00:52:15] mentioned several

[00:52:16] times you like

[00:52:16] history so you

[00:52:18] can explore

[00:52:19] history and

[00:52:20] you will you'll

[00:52:21] be your love

[00:52:23] of history will

[00:52:23] be enlivened by

[00:52:24] including the

[00:52:25] shroud in that

[00:52:26] in that study

[00:52:28] of course there's

[00:52:29] all the science

[00:52:30] but for me I

[00:52:32] really like the

[00:52:33] the connections to

[00:52:34] the scriptures

[00:52:35] because when you

[00:52:37] start listening for

[00:52:38] the shroud in the

[00:52:39] scriptures

[00:52:40] you will start

[00:52:41] hearing it and

[00:52:41] seeing it in

[00:52:43] many many places

[00:52:44] and it will

[00:52:45] just kind of

[00:52:46] invigorate your

[00:52:47] your study of

[00:52:48] the scriptures

[00:52:48] so I'm I

[00:52:50] guess I invite

[00:52:51] people to

[00:52:52] explore the

[00:52:53] shroud it can

[00:52:54] stand up to

[00:52:55] all of your

[00:52:55] questions it can

[00:52:56] stand up to

[00:52:57] probing and

[00:52:58] and we're

[00:52:59] invited in

[00:53:00] we're invited

[00:53:01] in to ask

[00:53:02] those questions

[00:53:03] and to

[00:53:04] explore but

[00:53:05] the the

[00:53:06] shroud is not

[00:53:07] an end in

[00:53:08] itself it

[00:53:09] points us to

[00:53:10] Jesus and

[00:53:11] the reason why

[00:53:12] I think the

[00:53:13] shroud was left

[00:53:13] for us is so

[00:53:14] it's for this

[00:53:15] generation it's

[00:53:16] for the

[00:53:17] skeptical generation

[00:53:18] that loves

[00:53:18] science and

[00:53:20] wants to have

[00:53:20] everything be

[00:53:21] explained neatly

[00:53:22] by science and

[00:53:23] I believe that

[00:53:24] this has been

[00:53:26] left for us for

[00:53:27] now for this

[00:53:27] time for us to

[00:53:29] explore use the

[00:53:30] shroud as a

[00:53:31] way to to

[00:53:33] deepen our

[00:53:33] faith and to

[00:53:35] get to really

[00:53:36] know the person

[00:53:36] of Jesus not

[00:53:38] just to end

[00:53:39] with the

[00:53:39] study of this

[00:53:40] fabric which is

[00:53:41] fascinating and

[00:53:42] I love it but

[00:53:43] it it's there

[00:53:45] to help us to

[00:53:46] to become

[00:53:48] heirs of the

[00:53:49] kingdom with

[00:53:50] Jesus that's what

[00:53:51] he left it for

[00:53:52] us for

[00:53:53] yeah and as a

[00:53:55] complete aside I'm

[00:53:56] just like if this

[00:53:57] is real then

[00:53:59] technically we have

[00:54:00] Jesus DNA that's

[00:54:01] kind of that's

[00:54:02] kind of neat you

[00:54:03] know like that's I

[00:54:04] think that's pretty

[00:54:05] cool but yeah it's

[00:54:06] just it's one of the

[00:54:07] most fascinating

[00:54:09] sort of mysteries out

[00:54:10] there and and

[00:54:12] artifacts and and

[00:54:13] again when we're

[00:54:13] when we're talking

[00:54:14] about history it's

[00:54:15] it's one thing to

[00:54:16] talk about history

[00:54:17] it's another thing

[00:54:17] to talk about

[00:54:18] ancient history

[00:54:19] which this is

[00:54:20] because the

[00:54:22] sort of the

[00:54:24] resources or the

[00:54:25] first-hand accounts

[00:54:25] that you have to

[00:54:26] work with are so

[00:54:27] few but as you

[00:54:28] said we've got got

[00:54:29] the gospels the

[00:54:30] gospel accounts

[00:54:31] that all sort of

[00:54:33] hit on these

[00:54:33] different points

[00:54:34] you know that we

[00:54:35] see within the

[00:54:37] shroud and it's

[00:54:37] just this

[00:54:38] fascinating thing

[00:54:39] so where can

[00:54:42] people go to

[00:54:42] step on top of

[00:54:43] what you're up to

[00:54:44] learn more about

[00:54:45] the shroud what are

[00:54:46] some resources for

[00:54:47] them so I have a

[00:54:49] website it's

[00:54:50] www.shroudeducator.com

[00:54:53] and I try to keep

[00:54:55] it updated but there

[00:54:56] are a lot of things

[00:54:57] going on in the

[00:54:57] shroud world so I

[00:54:59] do my best the

[00:55:00] other place is I'm

[00:55:02] a part of an

[00:55:02] organization called

[00:55:04] athonia and that

[00:55:05] is spelled O-T-H-O-N-I-A

[00:55:08] and athonia is the

[00:55:10] Greek word that John

[00:55:11] uses in his gospel

[00:55:13] to describe the

[00:55:14] burial clause that

[00:55:15] are left behind in

[00:55:17] the tomb and

[00:55:18] athonia is based in

[00:55:20] Rome and we are a

[00:55:21] part of the Regina

[00:55:22] Apostolorum which is

[00:55:24] a pontifical university

[00:55:25] in Rome and we're

[00:55:27] trying very hard to

[00:55:28] educate people about

[00:55:30] the shroud and make

[00:55:32] sure that we use

[00:55:33] only the best

[00:55:35] information so you

[00:55:37] know I tried to be

[00:55:38] very clear like this

[00:55:39] this is a theory or

[00:55:40] this is hasn't been

[00:55:42] completely proven yet

[00:55:43] because we want to

[00:55:44] make sure that we're

[00:55:45] giving authoritative

[00:55:46] information that people

[00:55:47] can depend on that

[00:55:49] this is good up-to-date

[00:55:51] clear concise

[00:55:51] information so athonia is

[00:55:54] a wonderful resource

[00:55:55] we are actually have

[00:55:57] launched an update to

[00:55:58] our website so our

[00:56:00] current website is not

[00:56:02] up-to-date yet but it

[00:56:03] will be in the future

[00:56:04] and we aim to have

[00:56:06] really wonderful up-to-date

[00:56:08] resources available for

[00:56:09] people that's

[00:56:11] fantastic I will

[00:56:12] certainly put those in

[00:56:13] the show notes so

[00:56:13] people can go out and

[00:56:15] check it out in

[00:56:16] addition we'll have

[00:56:18] photographs on both

[00:56:20] the website and on

[00:56:21] social media so

[00:56:22] Instagram and that

[00:56:23] type of thing

[00:56:23] Nora thank you so

[00:56:25] much this is a

[00:56:26] fascinating conversation

[00:56:27] I really appreciate

[00:56:28] your time today so

[00:56:29] thank you for coming

[00:56:29] on well thank you so

[00:56:31] much for having me and

[00:56:32] giving me the opportunity

[00:56:33] to talk about my

[00:56:34] favorite subject

[00:56:34] does he know that

[00:56:37] I'm alive does she

[00:56:49] care that I doubt

[00:56:50] does she care that I

[00:56:54] can tell God if God

[00:57:30] has a face his face

[00:57:33] must look like you're

[00:57:46] if God looks like

[00:58:03] it's not her face

[00:58:58] must look like you're

[00:59:13] like a Tina

[00:59:13] an Ahmed or Mildred

[00:59:16] a Russ and his

[00:59:19] husband

[00:59:19] Gus and their children

[00:59:22] face like a Kim

[00:59:24] a Ted or Tyrone

[00:59:27] a Lucy born with an

[00:59:30] extra crone

[00:59:32] see you in the

[00:59:32] and her

[00:59:32] to