Ep. 194 - Adam Elmasri ”Wounded by Faith”

[00:00:07] Deconstructed these walls and I found a...

[00:00:11] Welcome to the Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host, John Williamson. And this week,

[00:00:16] I have a really cool guest with a very unique personal journey. My guest this week is Adam

[00:00:21] Elmasri, who is here to talk about his new book about that very journey called Wounded by Faith,

[00:00:26] A True Story. Adam is an Australian-Egyptian free thinker, human rights activist, author,

[00:00:32] and content creator. He's widely recognized as a strong advocate for creative expression

[00:00:37] and is committed to promoting LGBTQ plus and women's rights in the Middle East.

[00:00:41] Before we get to the interview, please consider rating, reviewing, and subscribing to the show

[00:00:46] if you haven't already, so you don't miss a single new episode. We have a ton of new content coming

[00:00:50] that we're very excited to share. It also helps new listeners to find us as an independent podcast.

[00:00:56] So let's get to it. Here's this week's guest, Adam freaking Elmasri.

[00:01:03] We build a church uncertainty that fears everything against it.

[00:01:12] All right. Welcome to the podcast this week's guest. Very excited to have him on, Adam Elmasri.

[00:01:17] Thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

[00:01:20] Thank you so much for having me today.

[00:01:22] Absolutely. You've got a really cool background. So I'd love to start with sort of your upbringing.

[00:01:28] So tell folks where you're originally from and sort of your religious upbringing.

[00:01:34] I was born and raised in Egypt, in Cairo, Egypt, as a Coptic Orthodox Christian.

[00:01:40] Because the moment you say Egypt, people assume that you're from a Muslim background.

[00:01:45] So I was a Coptic Orthodox Christian. I grew up to some extent very religious.

[00:01:51] I was a deacon in the church from a very young age, an altar boy.

[00:01:57] Used to attend Sunday school.

[00:02:01] And I became a Sunday school teacher as I grew up.

[00:02:06] Yeah, very invested and entrenched in the church.

[00:02:13] I didn't know much of life outside of the church, so to speak.

[00:02:17] How much of that, for people who don't know, how much of that is sort of just part of growing up in the country that you grew up in?

[00:02:26] Is that sort of more of a way of life?

[00:02:29] It's just sort of blended in with your sort of social life, so to speak?

[00:02:36] It really depends which part of Cairo or which part of Egypt you grew up in.

[00:02:41] If you have this strong sense of identity, because here's the thing.

[00:02:48] In Egypt, it's a country of 80, back then it was 85 million Muslims.

[00:02:56] And the Christians are a minority of about 15%, 15 million.

[00:03:01] So there is, if you grew up in an area that allowed you to maintain social life with your fellow neighbors and you can find yourself in a Muslim community, that's great.

[00:03:16] If you don't, then you kind of cocoon yourself and shelter yourself into more of an isolated identity.

[00:03:23] And that heavily depends on how educated the suburb or the area that you grew up in and how open it is.

[00:03:33] Which, let me tell you, it's not too many in Egypt.

[00:03:37] So I grew up in a very humble suburb that kind of, I was in the isolated part.

[00:03:44] I found myself hard to invest myself in the neighborhood or in the Muslim community.

[00:03:51] So I threw myself in the church and that was basically my entire life.

[00:03:57] I guess not by choice, or you can argue it is by choice.

[00:04:02] But yeah, I didn't have many Muslim friends going up.

[00:04:06] I was going to a Catholic school.

[00:04:08] So even school and church had this Christian influence on me.

[00:04:13] So I was very, yeah, sheltered.

[00:04:16] Interesting.

[00:04:17] So like, talk a little bit about, you know, because you mentioned the fact that it's predominantly Muslim country.

[00:04:23] Was there much intermingling there?

[00:04:25] Or do Muslim folks kind of tend to stick with their side?

[00:04:31] And Christian folks just kind of tend to stick with their side?

[00:04:35] Or is there some sort of intermingling?

[00:04:38] There is and there isn't.

[00:04:40] Again, it depends on the, it depends on many factors.

[00:04:43] Where you grow up, the situations.

[00:04:47] So I can tell you two stories related to that.

[00:04:52] In my area, I was living in one household.

[00:04:56] Only three households in the entire suburb were Christian.

[00:05:00] The rest were Muslim.

[00:05:03] So in the afternoon, the kids would go down under the buildings and in the street and play together.

[00:05:11] So in that sense, there is the intermingling after school hours or during summer holidays.

[00:05:17] But we never formed strong friendships.

[00:05:21] So it's kind of surface level social interaction because you cannot live in complete isolation.

[00:05:28] You have to kind of make neighbors meet people.

[00:05:32] So there is that level.

[00:05:35] However, I remember a story I actually mentioned in my book.

[00:05:39] I'll tell you about my book later.

[00:05:41] But in my book, I talk about a summer holiday that we went with my dad's group,

[00:05:50] which also was full of Muslim people.

[00:05:53] In the afternoon, we would go and play with the other kids.

[00:05:55] And at that time, I had the Coptic cross tattoo on my wrist, which is a symbol of identity.

[00:06:03] I was 12 at the time.

[00:06:06] And the moment the kids noticed the cross on my wrist, everyone's like,

[00:06:10] Oh, don't play with him.

[00:06:11] He's Christian.

[00:06:12] Don't leave him alone.

[00:06:14] So all of a sudden, I became a zombie.

[00:06:17] That to give you a contrast between in one situation, I was able to play with other kids and mingle,

[00:06:24] and that's fine, my Muslim neighbors.

[00:06:26] But in the other scenario, I was outcast in a millisecond the moment they noticed that too.

[00:06:31] So it really depends.

[00:06:34] Yeah, that's sort of what I was curious about is, you know,

[00:06:39] obviously, it's an identity marker of a kind.

[00:06:43] And clearly, at some point, children learn that, oh, this makes me different from this other person.

[00:06:49] And that's certainly something that's learned.

[00:06:51] I think, you know, you pay attention.

[00:06:53] You watch kids on a playground.

[00:06:55] There's a lot less in the way of obstacles getting in the way of them playing.

[00:07:00] You know, it's a lot simpler.

[00:07:01] And so at some point, we clearly learn, you know, again, probably from our parents and modeling from other older folks that over time that, oh, I'm different than this person because of X, Y, or Z.

[00:07:14] So obviously, there's some of that being taught there.

[00:07:17] And so that must have been a very unique experience.

[00:07:20] And so, like, as a kid, did you realize, oh, hey, this is, you know, I'm different from the rest of these kids.

[00:07:27] And, like, what kind of impact did that have on you growing up?

[00:07:31] Hell yeah.

[00:07:33] You're born into this.

[00:07:35] I'm different.

[00:07:36] I'm unique.

[00:07:38] First of all, we're lucky to be born into the one true faith, of course.

[00:07:43] Right.

[00:07:44] As everyone believes.

[00:07:49] But then one unique thing about Egypt, Islam is really in your face.

[00:07:58] So people who never visited or grew up in these countries, they think that faith is a matter of a personal thing.

[00:08:07] Like, a Muslim is a Muslim in their home or house.

[00:08:11] A Christian is a Christian in their house.

[00:08:13] It's not really.

[00:08:14] Islam is really shoved down your throat in these countries.

[00:08:17] And I can give you a number of examples.

[00:08:22] From watching your favorite show on the TV and then all of a sudden in the middle.

[00:08:27] You know how here in Australia or in the Western world we have these ad breaks?

[00:08:34] Yeah.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:35] In Egypt, instead of the ad breaks, well, you have the ad breaks, of course.

[00:08:38] But you also have stopping the TV show and announcing the prayer time.

[00:08:44] So you have to stop the TV show and go and do your Muslim prayer.

[00:08:48] And it doesn't matter in that case if you are a Christian.

[00:08:51] It's something broadcast on the TV.

[00:08:54] So it's in your face.

[00:08:55] It kind of disrupts your life in a way.

[00:08:59] But that's trivial.

[00:09:00] That's a TV show, right?

[00:09:01] Well, let's get to something more serious.

[00:09:04] When you go to school, and although I went to a Catholic school, part of your curriculum to learn Arabic as a subject, think about it this way.

[00:09:17] When you learn or when you study English in school, you have to learn about the classical English, the Charles Dickens, the Shakespeare novels and the stuff like that.

[00:09:27] So for Arabic, it's almost the same thing where the Quran is the main material that resembles, and of course, other form of poetry.

[00:09:37] But the Quran, we study it regardless of your personal faith, you're Christian or not.

[00:09:42] You study the Quran from a very young age.

[00:09:45] And you have to memorize chunks of it.

[00:09:48] And you have to understand the meanings.

[00:09:49] And of course, you have to have a certain level of understanding about Islam.

[00:09:54] Now, that's not a TV break.

[00:09:56] That's something.

[00:09:57] This is your education.

[00:09:58] So again, Islam is really in your life regardless of your personal faith.

[00:10:06] And because of that, because you're exposed to it and you're not by choice invested in it too much, I would say.

[00:10:15] And it conflicts with your personal faith.

[00:10:19] You grow up with that sense of identity.

[00:10:25] I'm different.

[00:10:26] This is not mine, but I have to experience it somehow.

[00:10:30] So it's isolating in a way.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:35] I'm rambling here.

[00:10:36] Sorry.

[00:10:36] No, that's really interesting because I think there's some differences there that you pointed out where there are areas of the United States that you could grow up and be a dozen different faith backgrounds and never encounter a situation where another faith is necessarily shoved into your face.

[00:10:59] It's just kind of like there are areas where it's kept more quiet, I think.

[00:11:02] And so you may never know that the person next to you is Muslim or a Hindu or whatever.

[00:11:09] And so it's interesting that the sort of public life and what we would consider your private life, your religious life are so interwoven.

[00:11:20] And so like talk about, because I think that's fascinating in the sense that, you know, you are a Coptic Christian and Islam is so prevalent in your life.

[00:11:32] And so you're and you're reading the Koran and you're learning, you know, the the holy text for Islam.

[00:11:38] And I presume reading the Bible the other part of the time.

[00:11:42] And so, yeah.

[00:11:44] So talk about like at what point, you know, in your youth did you start to say, hey, like, why do I believe this?

[00:11:52] Why did I not end up being Muslim versus Christian?

[00:11:56] Like when did you start to ask yourself those types of questions?

[00:12:01] Almost never.

[00:12:03] Until very recent in life.

[00:12:05] It's fascinating that level of cognitive dissonance that you have growing up.

[00:12:11] For the majority of my life, until I came to Australia, I was a normal believer.

[00:12:20] I believe that I was lucky to be born in the one true faith.

[00:12:23] And Islam is, of course, wrong.

[00:12:27] Christianity is, of course, true.

[00:12:29] And I never came to see the two with the same lens.

[00:12:32] I always had one lens to look at the Bible and the Christian faith and another lens to look at Islam and its book.

[00:12:40] From a very young age, I developed interest in studying and examining the Islamic traditions, the Muslim narratives and engaged in kind of small debates or small talks, not necessarily debates.

[00:12:58] So I was very well versed and educated on Islam, but only with the wrong intention of just to prove it wrong.

[00:13:07] So it wasn't really a curiosity to equally examine faith.

[00:13:14] It was mainly to find errors and mistakes in Islam.

[00:13:19] But, of course, mine is infallible.

[00:13:22] So that was generally the mentality that I had until my very recent experience about 10 years ago when I had my own faith crisis.

[00:13:35] And only then I joined university and I did a degree in biblical studies and textual criticism.

[00:13:42] And I started having doubts about my own faith.

[00:13:46] And only then my eyes were open to the truth, but not back in Egypt.

[00:13:52] Hey, that's my personal style is you start to have a faith crisis or, you know, a strong curiosity about something.

[00:14:01] So why not throw yourself into all the academic side of things to try to figure it out?

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:10] So talk about so on this podcast, we talk a lot about, you know, going through again, you know, for better or for worse, the term deconstruction is linked to sort of this spiritual disruption.

[00:14:20] And so a lot of times we talk about, you know, Adam and I, my former co-host on this show, we used to talk about the fact that we came about our, you know, we started that path for two very different reasons.

[00:14:34] You know, his story is a little different than mine.

[00:14:37] A lot of people, you know, kind of find themselves on the path because of some sort of traumatic religious trauma, you know, or something that happened to them, you know, either by a church or represented.

[00:14:49] Or the representatives of a church or whatever.

[00:14:51] Mine, honestly, was very innocent and it was completely intellectual curiosity.

[00:14:57] And so, but we met on the same path, you know, for very different reasons, but ended up kind of on the same journey together.

[00:15:04] So for you, if you don't mind talking about it, what was it that sort of kicked off your journey?

[00:15:09] Was it something that was a little bit more on the traumatic side?

[00:15:12] Or was it, again, sort of just curiosity?

[00:15:17] So perhaps this is a good time to tell you that I took a lot of thinking and pondering to figure out that question that you said.

[00:15:26] And this is why I decided to write the book.

[00:15:28] So I wrote a book called Wounded by Faith, which will be available at the end of the month, at the end of September.

[00:15:38] And in one of the chapters, I started asking exactly that question.

[00:15:43] When, after I came to Australia, when my life was a dream life, really, what triggered me to all of a sudden question my faith?

[00:15:56] There are many reasons, I think, for that.

[00:15:59] One is simply, it is scientifically proven that when you start living life in a completely new language, which I never spoke English before coming to Australia.

[00:16:11] Once you start living life in a new language, you suddenly become more rational.

[00:16:15] And there is a strong link between changing language and all of a sudden your brain functions differently.

[00:16:24] So that's perhaps one thing that I wasn't aware of or conscious of.

[00:16:29] The other thing is the cultural shock.

[00:16:33] So I grew up in a country where there were only Muslims and Christians.

[00:16:38] There is nothing else.

[00:16:41] Then I came to Australia and I found an entire spectrum of Buddhists and atheists and Hindus and all faiths that I never heard of before.

[00:16:51] And again, yeah, I wasn't living under a rock.

[00:16:55] Of course, I heard about them before.

[00:16:56] But living among them is a different story.

[00:16:59] And witnessing and dealing with these people and you realize that the majority of people are just like you.

[00:17:06] We want the same things.

[00:17:08] We hate the same things.

[00:17:09] We fear the same thing.

[00:17:10] It's like, so that is one thing.

[00:17:14] And again, in Egypt, I grew up, we only have a man and a woman and a heterosexual relationship.

[00:17:22] That's it.

[00:17:23] There is nothing else.

[00:17:25] You come here and you find the LGBTQ and gay people and queer community and all that.

[00:17:33] But in the beginning, you try to shelter yourself from all these massive influences.

[00:17:39] And it really is, in a way, disturbing.

[00:17:44] And I think a lot of people succeed into cocooning themselves and even living in the Western world.

[00:17:51] They throw themselves even further into their own culture and safety net.

[00:17:56] And yeah, that's one big problem that is happening in the Western world.

[00:18:00] For others who are open to explore the Western way of life and try to understand this new environment,

[00:18:09] it really puts you into a massive, painful state of cognitive dissonance.

[00:18:14] You have to resolve these conflicts because you cannot hold on to the belief anymore that I am born into the one true faith

[00:18:22] and everyone else is doomed.

[00:18:27] Only then, I think, if you're open, you are forced to rethink your worldview.

[00:18:33] And from there, everything snowballs and spirals down.

[00:18:38] And you know the story.

[00:18:40] Yeah, it's funny.

[00:18:42] I tell people all the time, I said, you know, I grew up in a very small town,

[00:18:46] a population of about 9,000 people.

[00:18:48] And, you know, it's very much one of those sort of what we call the Midwestern bubble here in the United States

[00:18:54] where, you know, mostly Caucasian people who all sort of attend very similar churches

[00:19:02] and believe the same things politically.

[00:19:04] And so it's very, you know, mono in that way.

[00:19:10] And, you know, I was arguing with someone during, I was having a political argument that I should not have,

[00:19:17] I should have known better to fall into that trap.

[00:19:19] But it was someone who I went to high school with.

[00:19:23] And I just got so angry at one point.

[00:19:26] I said, you know, he was saying some things that were fundamentally just untrue,

[00:19:33] sort of misconceptions that he was propagating about Islam.

[00:19:40] And I know a little bit, you know, I studied in college.

[00:19:43] And I said, no, that's just, that's not true.

[00:19:46] That is fundamentally untrue.

[00:19:47] And by you spreading this, you're spreading misinformation.

[00:19:50] And that's very unhelpful.

[00:19:52] And finally, I got so frustrated.

[00:19:54] I got to the point, I said, you know,

[00:19:56] I don't have the benefit of holding that belief anymore.

[00:20:02] I said, because I moved to a much larger city, I said,

[00:20:05] and now I'm surrounded by people who don't think the same things I do

[00:20:10] and don't believe the same things I do.

[00:20:12] And for me, it's all about relationship.

[00:20:15] And as soon as you enter into a relationship with somebody of a different faith,

[00:20:20] suddenly you come up against that conflict about,

[00:20:24] well, I can't see this person burning in hell for eternity.

[00:20:28] There's no way.

[00:20:28] I love this person, you know?

[00:20:30] And so like immediately that becomes a problematic stance to hold, you know?

[00:20:37] And so for me that, you know, sounds similar.

[00:20:41] Some cracks started to emerge.

[00:20:43] And then from there I started to ask, well, like, you know,

[00:20:48] started diving into things like hell and LGBTQ.

[00:20:51] And what does the Bible have to say about this?

[00:20:54] And do we really, have we Christians always believe this?

[00:20:57] And so talk a little bit about, you said you went to,

[00:21:00] you immediately got a degree in the subject.

[00:21:03] So as you're starting to start this journey,

[00:21:09] what are some of the things that start to happen as you start to kind of walk down this path?

[00:21:13] I mean, it must've been scary.

[00:21:15] This is, as you said, this was a huge part of your identity.

[00:21:17] And for a lot of people, even in Western Christianity,

[00:21:20] especially like evangelical sort of fundamentalism,

[00:21:23] which is very prevalent here, same thing.

[00:21:26] That is absolutely your identity.

[00:21:29] And so it can be life shattering when that starts to fall apart.

[00:21:34] Totally.

[00:21:34] And I think when I started questioning my stance,

[00:21:42] first it started from a point of consolidation, trying to hang on.

[00:21:49] Maybe I misunderstood Christianity.

[00:21:51] Maybe it's the straw man fallacy.

[00:21:54] I had a version of Christianity that is not true.

[00:21:57] So I approached it with the idea of trying to fix my Christian beliefs.

[00:22:02] And surely that worked for some topics and for quite some time,

[00:22:08] that you try to find certain denominations that interpret the Bible in a much tolerant way.

[00:22:18] Accepting the LGBTQ communities, talking about things.

[00:22:24] Who said that all other faiths are doomed to hell,

[00:22:27] or only Christians are going to heaven?

[00:22:30] That's not true.

[00:22:32] So that was comforting for quite some time.

[00:22:35] And I found my peace with that.

[00:22:40] But then you're struck with something else.

[00:22:44] Okay, so how do I know that the Orthodox Church is wrong in its interpretation,

[00:22:50] and the Uniting Church is right?

[00:22:52] So all of a sudden, you take the argument,

[00:22:56] instead of I was talking Christianity is right, Islam is wrong.

[00:22:59] Now, who says that Orthodox is wrong and Uniting Church is correct?

[00:23:03] Like, we're still having the same problem here,

[00:23:06] because you have a text.

[00:23:07] You have two interpretations or more of that text.

[00:23:10] Who says that your interpretation is right or wrong,

[00:23:13] and mine is the opposite?

[00:23:16] From there, I wanted to...

[00:23:17] Okay, hang on a second here.

[00:23:18] I really need to understand how to read this book.

[00:23:23] And instead of trying to rely on certain churches or denominations or fathers interpreting the book,

[00:23:30] you really want to get to the point where,

[00:23:32] what did the author intend when he wrote that book?

[00:23:37] That was the premise of the degree in biblical studies and textual criticism,

[00:23:42] is to get to the author's meaning.

[00:23:44] And once I did that, and I started really academically studying the Bible,

[00:23:50] Pandora's box opened,

[00:23:52] and I realized that most of the things that we take for granted

[00:23:59] and we believe about the Bible,

[00:24:01] about its composition, how it came to be,

[00:24:04] even the authors themselves,

[00:24:06] what do we know about them?

[00:24:07] And all these things started crumbling in front of me.

[00:24:12] And by the end of that degree,

[00:24:14] I realized that we actually cannot be certain of anything.

[00:24:20] And that was a strong slap on the face,

[00:24:23] the idea that you cannot be certain about anything.

[00:24:27] Neither your faith or someone else's faith,

[00:24:30] or even your worldview,

[00:24:32] you have to constantly re-examine it

[00:24:35] and rethink where you stand on certain topics.

[00:24:39] My entire,

[00:24:41] the way of thinking changed not only in relation to religion,

[00:24:46] but my entire way of thinking about life and reality changed from there.

[00:24:52] And my faith, of course, was collateral damage.

[00:24:56] Right.

[00:24:57] So talk about that,

[00:24:59] because I've heard you say in other interviews that,

[00:25:02] again,

[00:25:03] going back to the idea that this is such a foundational part of your entire existence,

[00:25:08] it had a huge impact on your life.

[00:25:11] I've heard you mention you lost your entire friend group,

[00:25:13] and your life sort of crumbled for a time.

[00:25:17] So talk about just sort of the,

[00:25:18] you know,

[00:25:19] as you said,

[00:25:19] the collateral damage of even opening that door.

[00:25:24] Right.

[00:25:25] Let's get to the serious stuff.

[00:25:29] So when,

[00:25:31] when I started having doubts and I,

[00:25:33] sorry,

[00:25:34] not when I started,

[00:25:34] I started having doubts and I dealt with it.

[00:25:37] And eventually I reached a point where,

[00:25:39] you know what?

[00:25:39] I don't believe in this anymore.

[00:25:44] So then I couldn't live a dual life.

[00:25:47] I cannot just go and pretend a Christian life in the church.

[00:25:50] And,

[00:25:50] and the problem is again,

[00:25:53] even here in Australia,

[00:25:54] my life was very heavily invested in the church.

[00:25:57] My entire social circle was from the church.

[00:26:01] So there was no way I could have lived a dual life.

[00:26:07] So the first two people I confined it in and opened up to was my wife.

[00:26:13] Well,

[00:26:14] my ex-wife now,

[00:26:15] but my wife at the time,

[00:26:16] and my best friend who is an Egyptian friend of mine.

[00:26:20] We came to Australia almost together with a gap of a couple of years,

[00:26:25] but we were school friends.

[00:26:27] We have a very long history and we came to Australia and we supported each other

[00:26:32] here.

[00:26:33] Very strong friendship.

[00:26:36] Um,

[00:26:37] and both,

[00:26:38] unfortunately,

[00:26:39] both relationships ended catastrophically bad.

[00:26:43] So my best friend,

[00:26:44] when I talked to him,

[00:26:46] and again,

[00:26:47] I,

[00:26:47] I talk about this in deep details in my book.

[00:26:50] Um,

[00:26:52] we went around the block.

[00:26:53] I remember talking to him and trying to soften the blow.

[00:26:57] Um,

[00:26:58] and he got impatient and he said,

[00:27:00] well,

[00:27:01] listen,

[00:27:01] just tell me this.

[00:27:03] Do you still believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God or God incarnate?

[00:27:07] And I said,

[00:27:08] well,

[00:27:08] let me explain it because I don't need explanations.

[00:27:10] Is he God in your mind or not?

[00:27:14] I said,

[00:27:14] well,

[00:27:15] not really.

[00:27:16] I was like,

[00:27:17] okay,

[00:27:17] you need to stop talking now and please do not call me back.

[00:27:21] I would like to maintain a distance from you.

[00:27:23] And I,

[00:27:24] I was so taken back by that response.

[00:27:28] I didn't even understand.

[00:27:30] man,

[00:27:30] what do you mean maintain a distance from me?

[00:27:35] So,

[00:27:36] and that was literally the last time I talked to him.

[00:27:38] So 10 years later,

[00:27:40] I never heard from my best friend anymore.

[00:27:43] Um,

[00:27:44] with my wife or ex-wife,

[00:27:46] it was obviously a different story.

[00:27:48] She cannot do that over an instance.

[00:27:50] So we went through a very painful,

[00:27:52] uh,

[00:27:53] process of,

[00:27:54] uh,

[00:27:55] relationship counseling,

[00:27:56] marriage counseling.

[00:27:56] And we tried to work out things and,

[00:28:01] through a professional counselor and with our father of confession in the

[00:28:05] church and back and forth and family members trying to intervene.

[00:28:08] It was a,

[00:28:08] it was a mess,

[00:28:09] but eventually it led to a divorce as well.

[00:28:13] Um,

[00:28:14] so yeah,

[00:28:15] the,

[00:28:15] the two dearest people in my life also were not sure if I should say

[00:28:21] collateral damage or I happened to lose them in this process.

[00:28:26] Yeah.

[00:28:27] I mean,

[00:28:27] I think there's probably a lot of people listening right now who have gone

[00:28:31] through,

[00:28:32] uh,

[00:28:33] something along the same vein.

[00:28:35] Uh,

[00:28:35] unfortunately,

[00:28:36] you know,

[00:28:36] losing either friend groups or family members who have,

[00:28:40] you know,

[00:28:41] sort of distanced themselves or relationships falling apart.

[00:28:44] I mean,

[00:28:45] we've heard a number of stories,

[00:28:46] um,

[00:28:47] that are,

[00:28:48] uh,

[00:28:49] you know,

[00:28:49] very similar and,

[00:28:50] and,

[00:28:50] and sad.

[00:28:51] Um,

[00:28:52] and so talk about like,

[00:28:55] that's traumatic as is,

[00:28:57] but then you're also going through this in a foreign country in effect.

[00:29:02] And so like that had to compound the pain and that's a,

[00:29:07] that's a type of grief too.

[00:29:09] That's a type of loss.

[00:29:10] So now you're,

[00:29:10] you're grieving not only this life that,

[00:29:13] that you had,

[00:29:14] you know,

[00:29:15] within this religious community,

[00:29:16] but then you're also grieving the loss of arguably the two most important

[00:29:20] relationships in your life.

[00:29:22] So how,

[00:29:24] you know,

[00:29:24] where did you go from,

[00:29:25] from there?

[00:29:25] How did you,

[00:29:26] how did you take one step,

[00:29:28] you know,

[00:29:29] out there essentially in effect on your own?

[00:29:35] You know,

[00:29:36] it's funny that the start of,

[00:29:39] uh,

[00:29:40] wounded by faith is the phone call that I,

[00:29:43] uh,

[00:29:44] made to the men's health line.

[00:29:47] Uh,

[00:29:49] because,

[00:29:50] and the first question they asked me,

[00:29:52] do you have suicidal thoughts?

[00:29:54] I went into a very dark,

[00:29:56] uh,

[00:29:57] space from there.

[00:29:59] I could see that my life is crumbling.

[00:30:01] I couldn't do anything about it.

[00:30:03] It's not like I could roll back and,

[00:30:05] and,

[00:30:05] and believe in a second.

[00:30:07] Okay.

[00:30:08] I will believe back in Christ or in the,

[00:30:10] but I couldn't do that.

[00:30:12] Um,

[00:30:13] and I could also see that the damage that is happening in,

[00:30:16] in my reality.

[00:30:18] So the,

[00:30:20] eventually that led me to seek psychotherapy.

[00:30:22] It was a very,

[00:30:23] very important.

[00:30:26] But,

[00:30:26] and I cannot,

[00:30:27] if for,

[00:30:28] for anyone going through this journey,

[00:30:30] if you take one message out of this podcast or the book,

[00:30:33] whoever you listen to,

[00:30:35] please seek psychotherapy.

[00:30:37] It helps massively.

[00:30:40] Um,

[00:30:40] I was lucky to find,

[00:30:42] uh,

[00:30:42] a good,

[00:30:43] uh,

[00:30:43] couple of psychologists along the way,

[00:30:45] and,

[00:30:46] they worked with me.

[00:30:48] Um,

[00:30:49] I also started trying to find a community.

[00:30:54] So I,

[00:30:55] I went on websites like,

[00:30:58] uh,

[00:30:58] meetup and tried to find groups of like-minded people.

[00:31:03] Um,

[00:31:04] went to atheist groups,

[00:31:06] uh,

[00:31:06] humanitarian groups,

[00:31:08] um,

[00:31:09] also because I was so much lacking the life in the church and,

[00:31:12] and the,

[00:31:13] the social element that I got from my Christian faith.

[00:31:17] Now it was non-existent.

[00:31:19] Um,

[00:31:20] so I tried to do that and I realized that it was also essential to establish,

[00:31:25] uh,

[00:31:25] new relationships because the other branches fell off.

[00:31:30] Um,

[00:31:31] so I tried that repair mode.

[00:31:33] I tried to find other things that could replace,

[00:31:36] uh,

[00:31:37] what I was losing.

[00:31:38] Of course,

[00:31:39] it's not an overnight fix.

[00:31:40] It takes time,

[00:31:42] but that was part of my grieving and rebuilding at the same time.

[00:31:48] Um,

[00:31:49] in that process early on,

[00:31:51] as soon as I,

[00:31:52] uh,

[00:31:53] left my marriage home and lost my best friend,

[00:31:55] I,

[00:31:55] I became homeless for,

[00:31:57] uh,

[00:31:58] a few weeks,

[00:31:58] not homeless in the sense of sleeping on the street,

[00:32:00] but I,

[00:32:02] I was actually,

[00:32:02] uh,

[00:32:03] sneaking back at work and sleeping on the floor,

[00:32:06] um,

[00:32:06] in the IT workshop where I used to work.

[00:32:09] Um,

[00:32:10] just a few cardboards and I was sleeping at work,

[00:32:13] uh,

[00:32:14] for a few weeks until I found strength to,

[00:32:18] uh,

[00:32:18] to open up to my family and tell them that my,

[00:32:21] my,

[00:32:22] my life is effed up basically.

[00:32:24] Um,

[00:32:26] yeah,

[00:32:26] so different things,

[00:32:28] but eventually through psychotherapy and establishing new friends,

[00:32:32] a new network.

[00:32:34] Um,

[00:32:34] I got there.

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:37] Uh,

[00:32:37] I mean,

[00:32:38] it's,

[00:32:39] yeah,

[00:32:39] like I said,

[00:32:39] it's hard enough as is,

[00:32:40] but,

[00:32:41] uh,

[00:32:42] to be in a,

[00:32:42] in a,

[00:32:43] in a different country completely,

[00:32:44] I can only imagine,

[00:32:45] um,

[00:32:46] how,

[00:32:47] how hard,

[00:32:47] how difficult that must've been.

[00:32:49] But you said,

[00:32:50] you mentioned two things that I think are very important that are themes that

[00:32:52] we've talked about,

[00:32:53] uh,

[00:32:54] repeatedly throughout the eight years of this podcast.

[00:32:57] And number one is like therapy.

[00:32:58] Uh,

[00:32:59] it cannot,

[00:33:00] cannot emphasize,

[00:33:01] uh,

[00:33:02] how important therapy is,

[00:33:04] um,

[00:33:04] in and of itself.

[00:33:05] And,

[00:33:05] and having that person to talk to and,

[00:33:08] and work through,

[00:33:09] uh,

[00:33:10] issues with.

[00:33:10] And the fact that religious trauma,

[00:33:12] which we'll talk about is a very real thing.

[00:33:15] Um,

[00:33:15] and then community,

[00:33:16] um,

[00:33:17] you know,

[00:33:17] we've talked to so many people over the years and community is such a crucial

[00:33:21] thing.

[00:33:22] And sometimes like,

[00:33:23] you know,

[00:33:24] because church,

[00:33:25] obviously church life revolves largely around community.

[00:33:29] And so when you lose that,

[00:33:30] it's just like,

[00:33:32] it's,

[00:33:32] it's such a huge part of your life.

[00:33:34] That's now gone that it's important.

[00:33:36] It's important to find new community,

[00:33:37] whether that's just meeting with people in a coffee shop,

[00:33:39] uh,

[00:33:40] or like you said,

[00:33:41] meet up.

[00:33:42] I did the same thing when I got divorced,

[00:33:43] you know,

[00:33:44] I thought I want to find people to kayak with,

[00:33:46] you know,

[00:33:47] just something that we have in common.

[00:33:49] And,

[00:33:49] um,

[00:33:50] uh,

[00:33:51] it,

[00:33:51] I'm thankful that we have resources like that out there,

[00:33:53] but,

[00:33:54] um,

[00:33:54] talk a little bit about,

[00:33:55] so as you get back up on your feet,

[00:33:59] um,

[00:34:00] obviously it's very clear that your,

[00:34:02] your career now,

[00:34:02] um,

[00:34:03] you took a lot from that experience and,

[00:34:06] you know,

[00:34:06] you're here now helping other people.

[00:34:08] Like I know there,

[00:34:09] like I said,

[00:34:10] I know there are people who are listening to this and relating to it.

[00:34:13] And so,

[00:34:14] uh,

[00:34:14] one of the things you mentioned,

[00:34:15] you recommended,

[00:34:16] uh,

[00:34:17] therapy.

[00:34:17] What are,

[00:34:17] what are some other things that you took away from your experience that,

[00:34:20] that are important things for folks to understand or hear?

[00:34:25] So the two most important thing you,

[00:34:29] you mentioned is therapy and community.

[00:34:33] So these are really the concrete base that can help you grief and restore your life.

[00:34:39] But one important thing I realized as well is for your own peace of mind,

[00:34:48] because even when you reach a new,

[00:34:52] uh,

[00:34:54] conclusion or a new standard,

[00:34:55] I don't believe anymore.

[00:34:58] Your emotional system doesn't catch up quickly enough with your rational system.

[00:35:04] So you start believing something,

[00:35:06] it's not believing,

[00:35:07] but you start having new convictions in your head rationally,

[00:35:11] but you're still so troubled emotionally by what if I'm wrong?

[00:35:17] Uh,

[00:35:18] what if I,

[00:35:19] what if you die and you find that God is still there or Christ is,

[00:35:23] you get these irrational thoughts.

[00:35:27] And I realized that there is only one way to go about this.

[00:35:32] Do your own homework,

[00:35:33] do your own due diligence,

[00:35:35] study a lot,

[00:35:36] read a lot,

[00:35:37] uh,

[00:35:38] converse with people and,

[00:35:39] and,

[00:35:40] and talk.

[00:35:40] The only thing that will get you to a peaceful point,

[00:35:47] even if there is a God or,

[00:35:50] or isn't at the end,

[00:35:51] but if you're confronted with that question is like,

[00:35:54] well,

[00:35:55] I studied,

[00:35:56] I did my homework.

[00:35:57] I did everything I could.

[00:35:58] And this is where my brain took me.

[00:36:01] I didn't come to this point from a place of ignorance.

[00:36:05] I came to it from a place of knowledge and I did my best.

[00:36:10] This is the only thing that can bring you peace,

[00:36:12] really knowing that you've done your best.

[00:36:15] And at the end,

[00:36:16] I still ended as an unbeliever or I couldn't believe in the same way.

[00:36:21] So yes,

[00:36:22] do your studies and,

[00:36:23] um,

[00:36:24] and,

[00:36:25] and this,

[00:36:25] this ties well with the community as well,

[00:36:28] because when you start meeting like-minded people,

[00:36:31] you can bounce ideas,

[00:36:33] have conversations and,

[00:36:35] and examine your arguments and all these things.

[00:36:39] Eventually on the long run,

[00:36:41] it will bring you peace.

[00:36:43] Um,

[00:36:44] um,

[00:36:45] and I took it one step further.

[00:36:46] Um,

[00:36:47] and I took it one step further.

[00:36:47] Once I,

[00:36:47] I got to that point,

[00:36:48] I wanted really to help people who don't have many of these resources.

[00:36:55] Um,

[00:36:55] um,

[00:36:56] so big part of what I do is I,

[00:36:58] I do have,

[00:37:00] um,

[00:37:01] um,

[00:37:01] a couple of YouTube channels.

[00:37:02] I also lecture in,

[00:37:05] I also lecture in,

[00:37:05] in certain areas.

[00:37:06] I give public speeches.

[00:37:09] The reason I went into that direction is a lot of people I personally know are unable to go out and find communities.

[00:37:19] And that's basically because they cannot go public about denouncing their faith or,

[00:37:25] so they're kind of,

[00:37:27] uh,

[00:37:28] in,

[00:37:28] in the closet,

[00:37:29] religiously speaking,

[00:37:31] unable to say,

[00:37:32] I'm an unbeliever because they will,

[00:37:35] we know what the consequences are.

[00:37:37] So I wanted to have an online community and that was established through my YouTube channel in,

[00:37:42] in Arabic.

[00:37:43] And again,

[00:37:44] as we,

[00:37:44] you were telling me earlier,

[00:37:46] uh,

[00:37:46] offline before we started,

[00:37:48] that you started about eight years ago.

[00:37:50] And little that you knew that this,

[00:37:53] uh,

[00:37:53] podcast will become a,

[00:37:55] a,

[00:37:55] a big impact,

[00:37:56] a big thing beyond what you expected.

[00:37:58] I can relate exactly what happened to me.

[00:38:01] I started the channel about nine years ago and,

[00:38:04] uh,

[00:38:05] it,

[00:38:05] it grew beyond my expectations over 15 million views and,

[00:38:10] thousands of subscribers.

[00:38:11] Uh,

[00:38:12] that's the Arabic channel mainly.

[00:38:14] And the reason I did that,

[00:38:16] John,

[00:38:17] was,

[00:38:18] I realized how lucky we are in the Western world.

[00:38:21] We have access to secular therapists,

[00:38:24] which is something that is non-existent in the Arab world.

[00:38:27] Any therapist you go to in an Arab country,

[00:38:30] it's,

[00:38:30] it's either a Christian or a Muslim.

[00:38:33] And the moment you start talking about doubts or questioning,

[00:38:37] they're like,

[00:38:38] uh,

[00:38:38] you need to pray.

[00:38:39] You need to confine in God and blah,

[00:38:41] blah,

[00:38:42] blah.

[00:38:42] You don't really find secular therapy there.

[00:38:45] So,

[00:38:46] um,

[00:38:47] I wanted to establish an online community for people to be able to at least find each other,

[00:38:52] even from behind the screen.

[00:38:54] Um,

[00:38:55] yeah,

[00:38:56] I think these are all my nuggets.

[00:38:59] No,

[00:39:00] that's great.

[00:39:00] I,

[00:39:01] you know,

[00:39:01] I,

[00:39:01] we felt the same way when we first,

[00:39:03] first began because one of the first questions we kept getting repeatedly is people would ask,

[00:39:09] well,

[00:39:09] is there some way to meet other like-minded people?

[00:39:12] Because,

[00:39:12] you know,

[00:39:13] maybe they live in a very rural area like I did,

[00:39:17] you know,

[00:39:17] growing up.

[00:39:18] And like you said,

[00:39:19] there is no chance that they could come out publicly and say,

[00:39:22] you know what?

[00:39:23] I don't think that I believe that Jesus was literally God,

[00:39:26] or I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin.

[00:39:29] And they literally cannot say that because,

[00:39:32] you know,

[00:39:33] the community and the family structure around them just doesn't allow for it.

[00:39:37] And so,

[00:39:38] or if they do,

[00:39:39] they know that they're,

[00:39:40] they are going to be isolated.

[00:39:42] There's no one there for them to,

[00:39:44] to talk to or have any kind of community with.

[00:39:46] And so thank goodness for,

[00:39:49] you know,

[00:39:50] for the internet and for technology,

[00:39:52] like you said,

[00:39:52] because we can now connect through the web and narrow those distances down and we can connect with community.

[00:39:59] Maybe we don't have it in our neighborhood or the place where we live,

[00:40:03] the town where we live,

[00:40:04] but you can find people,

[00:40:05] you know,

[00:40:06] like you said,

[00:40:06] through your YouTube channel and you can converse with people and share ideas in that way.

[00:40:11] So talk a little bit of before we go,

[00:40:13] like,

[00:40:13] I think it's really interesting because I,

[00:40:14] I saw on your website,

[00:40:16] you landed on secular humanism.

[00:40:18] Is that,

[00:40:19] is that accurate?

[00:40:20] Sorry,

[00:40:21] say again,

[00:40:21] secular humanism,

[00:40:24] secular therapy.

[00:40:26] I,

[00:40:26] Oh yes.

[00:40:27] Okay.

[00:40:27] I'm part of the secular therapy project.

[00:40:30] So there is an organization in,

[00:40:33] in the U S called RFR,

[00:40:36] recovering from religion,

[00:40:38] which is a great organization.

[00:40:39] I work with them closely.

[00:40:42] And recently they,

[00:40:43] they also started operating in Australia,

[00:40:46] recovering from religion,

[00:40:47] Australia and New Zealand,

[00:40:50] recovering from religion.

[00:40:53] So a few years ago,

[00:40:55] they saw the problem with the secular therapy.

[00:41:00] It's not easy sometimes in certain areas to find a secular therapist who can really meet you where you are.

[00:41:08] And instead of having their own agenda,

[00:41:12] trying to promote a certain faith or,

[00:41:14] or the lack thereof,

[00:41:16] they really approach you with you.

[00:41:22] Some people,

[00:41:23] when people experience religious trauma for instance,

[00:41:28] some people I met personally,

[00:41:29] and I worked with are not necessarily going towards atheism or non-belief.

[00:41:35] They are shifting from one faith to another.

[00:41:37] They're leaving Islam and joining Christianity,

[00:41:39] or leaving Christianity and going somewhere else.

[00:41:42] And my role as a secular therapist is to meet them where they are and validate their experience.

[00:41:51] And yeah,

[00:41:52] fair enough,

[00:41:53] gently help them re-examine,

[00:41:55] not challenge them,

[00:41:56] but help them re-examine their thoughts and be clear on your,

[00:42:00] on their intentions.

[00:42:02] So for that reason,

[00:42:04] I joined the secular therapy project,

[00:42:06] which is an initiative by recovering from religion,

[00:42:09] to help people with the religious trauma.

[00:42:13] That's,

[00:42:13] that's basically it.

[00:42:16] Yeah,

[00:42:16] that's,

[00:42:17] that's awesome.

[00:42:17] And,

[00:42:18] and I,

[00:42:18] you know,

[00:42:19] it's,

[00:42:19] it's,

[00:42:19] I think one of the coolest things that sort of,

[00:42:22] I don't know,

[00:42:23] came about as a result of,

[00:42:24] of the pandemic,

[00:42:25] pandemic,

[00:42:25] but certainly was,

[00:42:26] was highly promoted,

[00:42:28] um,

[00:42:28] based on the fact that everyone in the world was in lockdown for a period of time,

[00:42:33] is the,

[00:42:34] um,

[00:42:34] emergence of,

[00:42:36] uh,

[00:42:37] therapeutic resources by way of things like zoom.

[00:42:40] And,

[00:42:41] and so you don't even need to leave your home.

[00:42:43] And for folks who live in an area where maybe,

[00:42:46] uh,

[00:42:46] there's not an accessible,

[00:42:47] you know,

[00:42:48] secular therapist,

[00:42:49] you know,

[00:42:50] you can find one online now.

[00:42:51] And so it's,

[00:42:52] the resources are so,

[00:42:54] so much more widely available now than they've ever been.

[00:42:56] And so,

[00:42:57] and,

[00:42:57] and becoming at least in the U S steadily more affordable,

[00:43:01] you know?

[00:43:02] Absolutely.

[00:43:03] Yes.

[00:43:03] Yeah.

[00:43:04] So,

[00:43:05] um,

[00:43:05] any,

[00:43:06] any final thoughts,

[00:43:06] uh,

[00:43:07] before we go.

[00:43:07] And I also want you to mention the book again and,

[00:43:09] uh,

[00:43:10] where folks can find it as well.

[00:43:13] Um,

[00:43:15] no,

[00:43:16] I don't have any final thoughts other than,

[00:43:19] um,

[00:43:21] the,

[00:43:21] the things that we reiterated already.

[00:43:23] Um,

[00:43:24] please therapy community,

[00:43:26] do your homework and you will,

[00:43:28] you will get there.

[00:43:29] Just be patient and be kind to yourself.

[00:43:33] Um,

[00:43:34] my book is,

[00:43:35] uh,

[00:43:36] my own story,

[00:43:37] uh,

[00:43:38] my autobiography.

[00:43:38] It's called wounded by faith.

[00:43:41] Um,

[00:43:41] I guess it's clear why that name,

[00:43:44] um,

[00:43:45] and the book will be available online,

[00:43:47] uh,

[00:43:47] by the end of September,

[00:43:48] maximum early October,

[00:43:50] it will be on Amazon.

[00:43:52] Um,

[00:43:52] I'm planning to have it on bookshelves as well in,

[00:43:55] uh,

[00:43:55] many bookstores,

[00:43:56] but I guess everyone buys from Amazon these days.

[00:43:59] So it will be online.

[00:44:00] It will be on my personal website as well.

[00:44:03] Adam and the mastery dot online.

[00:44:05] Um,

[00:44:06] yeah.

[00:44:07] And I hope you find benefit and,

[00:44:10] uh,

[00:44:11] you want a good story.

[00:44:13] Absolutely.

[00:44:14] I mean,

[00:44:14] I,

[00:44:14] I think,

[00:44:15] uh,

[00:44:15] your story alone is,

[00:44:16] is,

[00:44:17] um,

[00:44:17] is inspiring.

[00:44:18] And I think people will,

[00:44:19] will,

[00:44:19] will see that as well.

[00:44:20] And,

[00:44:21] and again,

[00:44:21] you know,

[00:44:22] every day there's someone else who comes and says,

[00:44:25] you know,

[00:44:25] uh,

[00:44:26] give sort of a similar,

[00:44:27] uh,

[00:44:28] like I said,

[00:44:28] similar background,

[00:44:29] similar story.

[00:44:30] And,

[00:44:31] it's just nice to,

[00:44:32] to see people on the other side of it.

[00:44:34] Like,

[00:44:34] you know,

[00:44:34] you'll make it out.

[00:44:35] Okay.

[00:44:36] And like you said,

[00:44:36] be,

[00:44:37] be nice to yourself.

[00:44:38] Um,

[00:44:39] there are resources out there.

[00:44:40] There's so many more resources available now than there were even eight years ago when this podcast started.

[00:44:45] So check out Adam's work.

[00:44:47] I'll have all the links in the show notes.

[00:44:49] Um,

[00:44:49] thank you so much for coming on.

[00:44:50] This is a lot of fun.

[00:44:52] Thank you,

[00:44:52] John.

[00:44:52] I really appreciate it.

[00:44:54] How does she care that I,

[00:45:33] if God has a face,

[00:45:36] his face must look like you.

[00:45:49] Did God kill his kid?

[00:45:55] Did he have?

[00:46:05] It looks like a,

[00:46:27] it's not real.

[00:47:00] Has a face,

[00:47:01] her face must look like you.

[00:47:16] He's like a Tina,

[00:47:18] an Ahmed,

[00:47:19] a Mildred,

[00:47:20] a Russ and his husband,

[00:47:23] Gus and their children,

[00:47:26] face like a Kim,

[00:47:28] a Ted or Tyron,

[00:47:34] an extra crone.