Ep. 178 - Sarah Stankorb ”Disobedient Women” pt. 2

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[00:01:08] I'm your podcast host. I am John Williamson and we are getting down to the end of the season. So this is part two of my interview with Sarah Stankorb. She's the author of the book Disobedient Women.

[00:01:22] It's a culmination of years of reporting on women who use the internet to call out abuse within their evangelical communities. For a lot of people who just didn't have a voice before. So extremely important book and extremely important research and project that went into this.

[00:01:42] So really had a great conversation with her about it. You can see Sarah's articles and essays that appeared all over the place, including the Washington Post magazine, the New York Times, Washington Post, Vogue, Marie Claire, Glamour, O Magazine, Slate, The Guardian, The Atlantic. Just tons.

[00:02:01] She's quite the prolific writer and a wonderful interview. So hopefully you guys enjoy this. Again, as I mentioned in the first part, Sarah wanted to point out that she does deal with a vocal disorder.

[00:02:15] So at times it can make it kind of trickier to hear what she has to say. So I tried to give her a couple assists there. So we tried to amp up the volume a little bit so that hopefully you can hear it a little bit better.

[00:02:27] But might just have to concentrate a little harder. And also working on trying to get the transcripts up on the website. So if you want to follow along in written form, then you can do so as well.

[00:02:37] And in general, we've been working on trying to get transcripts put together as that's something that people have asked for for years. And we just didn't have the technology then. But we do now. So we'll hopefully have that up there as well.

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[00:03:41] But otherwise, we'll be back with I believe one more episode. So got one more in the can. One or two. Depends. I have to look and see how long the episode is. So at least one more episode and then take a short break

[00:03:56] as I work on another project for this podcast. And then hopefully we'll have more news very, very soon for you on that. So thank you so much for listening. Appreciate all the support from all the listeners out there. You keep me energized and keep me going. So happy 2024.

[00:04:12] Happy 2024. And without further ado, I give you Sarah freaking Stan Korb. Yeah, as a parent, we call that the illusion of choice. You know? Yes, yes. We make you think you have a choice, but really they're all pre-approved options. So.

[00:04:45] Yes, when I learned with my first kid, instead of saying, do you want to wear a shirt? Which is always a no. Do you want to wear the blue shirt or the green shirt? Oh, well now there you go. I've limited your options.

[00:05:02] You feel like you have exerted your will and now we can move on to maybe wearing pants. Yes, yes. Moves things along a lot quicker, doesn't it? Yes, yes. It's very true. One of the interesting things is you talk a lot about there are.

[00:05:18] It's not just these stories. It's so like the layers are so complex like in the sense that it's not just like a leader. It's not just like a pastor who's exerting kind of their influence, but like their magazines,

[00:05:34] you know, there's like I said, a lot of multiple layers and you talk about something called the patriarch magazine. I'm like, what? They have a magazine. That's insane. But like this notion that where they are communicating this message that women are to make babies because they are arrows

[00:05:54] to help God in this fight, this holy war to take over America and that there's a quote in there where you say that they believe that in 40 years, 90% of America will be Christian. And I thought, how's that going? Yeah, so that's Mary Pride, which is very interesting.

[00:06:19] I've been kind of just abstracting little quotes from the book and posting on Instagram and TikTok. That's a different story. But just this idea is from Mary Pride.

[00:06:32] I'm hearing from people who grew up in a quiver of families and they remember their mothers reading these books from Mary Pride because she was so highly regarded, especially within Christian homeschooling families. She made the catalog back before the internet.

[00:06:53] She made the catalog where you could find her homeschool stories. You could join associations that would advocate for homeschool families. She was the resource. So then she would also write these books, give a reproductive advice. And she would tell you how to raise your children.

[00:07:13] And she had these wild oppositions about how we as Christian mothers can increase the birth rate of Christians. Never any question that they may deconvert, but that through your womb we can essentially take control of this country.

[00:07:34] And that's the sort of thing we're now hearing from extremist communities and reading that from decades back. There were moments like that figure that were very chilling because it's definitely still here. And it starts with a trust of resource.

[00:07:59] And I think it is also important for me to include figures like Mary Pride because, sure, this is a system where men have a lot of authority. And holding on to that authority can result in abuse. It can result in cover-ups. It can maintain that authority.

[00:08:21] But you also have women who are in service of these systems and who help keep the other women in line and interested in being there and feeling like they're contributing. And it's not patriarchy. It's only maintained by men. It's the women definitely have a part in it.

[00:08:49] Yeah, that's really interesting. And you talk about some techniques that they use to keep women in this submissive role. And you talk about this horrific story about Ashley. You talk about her childhood and growing up with her grandfather who some perceive slight or misbehavior.

[00:09:12] He locks her in a basement bedroom and keeps her there for hours and hours until I think the term is like will breaking or something like that. And this was a technique that was commonly employed to keep women in this sort of submissive role. Yeah, and just children.

[00:09:32] I mean the will breaking was children in general. And it's interesting that from his perspective, from what Ashley told me, it's a story that has come up over time. Like it's one of those family stories you repeat when everyone is together.

[00:09:54] So it was understood as a good thing that this had happened. Like she had been so wild and spirited. Look what I've done, look how I helped. And this is a formative traumatic memory for her. It's just passed. It's invisible.

[00:10:23] The experience of being the person made submissive, you don't have the voice to say all this hurts. All of this because you're part of being submissive is not speaking up. Yeah, it's unbelievable. As someone who's a huge proponent of therapy, I couldn't help but wonder.

[00:10:53] I'm like reading these stories that these women are brave enough to tell that are absolutely horrific and in some cases like straight up child abuse.

[00:11:01] And I think to myself like gosh, like how many years of therapy must these poor women be in who have suffered these things that will probably stick with them the rest of their lives? Like that is no small amount of trauma. That is absolutely horrific.

[00:11:19] Yeah, so Krista Brown, who some people may know, she was one of the leading advocates calling for some sort of recognition to the abuse crisis within the Southern Baptist Convention.

[00:11:37] But when she first stepped forward in her 50s, which is actually 52 is the common age for people to finally speak up and recognize child sexual abuse. It's something people just carry.

[00:11:55] Anyway, but for Krista, when she first stepped forward, she had learned that SBC would pay for therapy to restore an abusive pastor.

[00:12:13] So all she was really asking for was enough money to pay for therapy at the same amount of time as they would give to an abusive pastor. And she also wanted a meditation garden, just have some small recognition and absolutely not. That became too much to ask.

[00:12:39] And in some ways, if not for that initial battle, what it turned into and what she learned from it, which was that her local state convention kept a list of credibly abused pastors.

[00:12:57] And they wouldn't make a public when Krista saw that she wrote a letter to the editor. And from that point on, that's when people started pouring into her saying, this happened to me, this happened to me, this happened to me. And that's why she ended up dying.

[00:13:16] It got up to 172 cases just based on public record. And then she finally needed to take a break. But all of that stemmed from really, she just needed some help. She just needed some help.

[00:13:36] And there are moments when you hear a story like that, when I wonder, you know, if they'd just given her therapy, she wouldn't have been in this position to learn all that she did. Where would SBC be now if they had just made that small concession?

[00:13:59] And maybe we wouldn't know the scope. So it's this mixed result where because they were so horrible to Krista Brown, and because this became the fight of her life.

[00:14:16] Eventually, at least the histocratic life of the day, and story after story, and I put solutions in the historical investigation. And now we're starting to see how vast the scope of abuse is within SBC. Yeah, and that seems to be like sort of a common thread.

[00:14:38] We could go very, we could spend an entire extra hour on Bill Gothard in that part of the book. But that's just, I mean, he's just a statistic at this point.

[00:14:53] He is just another example of what we see in many, many other cases where there is a person in a position of power who is out of one side of his mouth preaching. So often it's ironic and obviously very hypocritical.

[00:15:12] They're almost obsessed about the sex lives of women and abstaining and being pure and all these things. And then behind the scenes, they are absolutely completely taking advantage of their power position to, at the very least, sexually harass women under their leadership.

[00:15:32] And then in the end, when it becomes public, and in this case, like you said earlier, through, thank God there was the Internet at this point, through, in this case, a website. Victims were able to come forward and say, hey, like, no, this happened to me also.

[00:15:50] But then in the end, the board, I think it was the board, right, of his organization comes forward and doesn't even initially accept his resignation. They're like, well, let's wait to see how this plays out, you know, and then eventually they accept his resignation.

[00:16:08] But even then, they don't really, there really isn't the sense of justice that you would expect. They're like, well, you can kind of stay on unofficially, but like you can't really pastor.

[00:16:19] And then even earlier than that, they clearly knew something was going on because behind the scenes, they're like, maybe you shouldn't have female assistants. Maybe that's not a good idea. Like, you clearly know what's going on, you know?

[00:16:30] Well, and even so, one of the women who stepped forward in the book who hadn't been public before, she's there under his pseudonym, but she was his personal secretary. He plucked out one of the trainings at hers. And she was 14.

[00:16:52] I mean, if you're on the board of an organization with a man who had a 14-year-old personal secretary, from what she tells me without much secretarial skill, who he stayed late in the office with, who he sometimes would visit in her room at night when she was in her nightgown.

[00:17:17] Either you're completely absent or you're looking the other way. There's just no other formulation in my mind that is logical. In that case, and a lot of these are very dissatisfying. You don't end with, and then it went to jail.

[00:17:40] Instead, you have a third who still has kind of quasi-mysteries-ish on a website, Facebook page. But you also still have people who insist he did nothing wrong, despite the legions who have come out to state,

[00:18:01] yet, yet, he got me alone, he made me pray, he touched me in a foot fairy, he took his shoes off, he ran this feet all over my leg. Just the consistency of these stories is staggering. And with what, he said something that made me think of this.

[00:18:23] Clothard, when he was at his height, wrote books, he gave lectures, he hosted conferences, he created a lot of rules for people to live by. He would not approve of listening to heavy metal, for sure. But he also would give guidance on every bit of your attire.

[00:18:47] And so here's how a woman should look, here's how she should have her hair, here's how makeup should be if you have an official example. Here's how you should draw attention to the chest with your clothing. On and on and on.

[00:19:03] What struck me is very interesting because consistently in my reporting, there are these young women who are teenagers when he found them and invited them to come work for him. There was a type, and it was known, it was something people talked about.

[00:19:22] Jill Duggar in her book references the Clothard girls. And it was as if, if you can imagine a woman with a predatory nature who had the ability to get people to conform to their own tastes, that's a level of grooming that is astounding.

[00:19:46] And to be able to point people out and have young people, children, teens, and have their parents trust you to have them come live at your headquarters and see it as a gift from God. Hearing that sort of story over and over again can be pretty troubling.

[00:20:12] Yeah, I can't imagine having to gather up all these stories and read case after case after case after case where you're seeing the same thing and yet nothing's done.

[00:20:24] I would say if this person had been in any other job, they were an actor or a teacher or comedian or whatever, they would have been canceled and put in jail years ago.

[00:20:37] But for some odd reason we turn a blind eye because, oh, they've got the ear of the Lord. Like, well, they're also human. Yeah, or human resources. Yeah, it's really difficult.

[00:20:53] And then there's also like, which I couldn't even get into, but the financial exploitation of calling these internships because people are too young to be working illegally. You know, they have up to 50 bucks here or there, but they're working more than full time for you.

[00:21:14] I didn't even think about that. I do remember where you mentioned that, yeah, you'd hand her a 20 every once in a while. I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and to think that's the least of the worst things that had happened in that situation.

[00:21:35] One of the other things I thought was interesting, too, and we've kind of talked about, touched on this a little bit in the podcast before, but just what kind of set the stage for this kind of structure, which really at the end of the day seems to come down to this patriarchal desire to maintain a certain level of power.

[00:21:57] And it really seems to have more to do with power and identity politics than anything else.

[00:22:03] And you kind of mentioned the fact that, you know, conservative politics in the 70s and 80s sort of aligned itself with conservative Christianity in order to sort of wage this war against certain issues like abortion and race and science and LGBTQ plus community, and these sorts of things that sort of really kind of created this environment for this type of like,

[00:22:26] I'll say twisted version of Christianity that has thrived specifically in North America to even exist and thrive.

[00:23:27] Yeah, so I will talk about that. What struck me, and it's related to building up the Christian right.

[00:23:49] I think that there's a lot of where the power comes from is this buddy system or this endorsing system, where people in higher leadership positions, people who can bring in large numbers of votes to have that influence.

[00:24:07] And so, there's a dynamic of influence swapping that then kind of lifts all ships. So if I endorse you politically, then you can get the laws passed that I want. That's how things work.

[00:24:26] But also, I will bring in my fellow political leaders, whether they're in practice or offshore, other ministers who are up and coming, they'll be able to say that these particular political figures, like Huckabee, Sarah Palin, these are folks that went to those conferences. It's all in that.

[00:24:53] But I also see that in the way that just the ministries themselves, one is up, one another up. So even this is just looking within Vision Forum, which is a ministry that I said earlier about a decade ago.

[00:25:09] But they have these catalogs where you can find books encouraging Christian patriarchy, stay at home daughterhood, all of that. And the endorsements, one to the other, back and forth, which then creates this idea of authority. Because the minister that I respect respects this other minister.

[00:25:35] And you create these new celebrities within evangelical Christianity. And that celebrity, I think, is a decision-making, but I think that's an important part of how this authority and abuse structure works.

[00:25:51] Because you end up with a lot of people in very influential positions who got there by who they know, between the people they owe and the people they have to protect. And you also are in a position of authority that maybe you're not totally qualified for.

[00:26:12] Maybe you haven't gone to seminary, maybe you don't know your faith, but you're respected and you're influential and people will come see you at conferences, buy your DVD. And I think that makes it would be natural for a person in that position to feel a little extra defensive.

[00:26:33] Because even if they have the biggest CEO in the world, somewhere they have to recognize that their celebrity and their being in this upper echelon is still upon them.

[00:26:45] And so that to me explains why people get so brutally defensive when someone questions or when someone comes forward with a story about abuse. Because if I can poke a hole in your authority over all of us, what else is there for you to stand on?

[00:27:11] I think it's in many ways a lesson learned from how the Christian right was able to establish itself. It's that particular network that when you overlay it in a mutually exclusive percentage, it can be very dangerous. Yeah, oh gosh. Yes, it does.

[00:27:40] I kind of got a little in there, but these are things I think about. Yeah, I mean your book was incredibly thought provoking. I found myself kind of my brain moving off in multiple different directions based on different things that you talk about in the book.

[00:27:59] And it just got me thinking about a lot of different things. One of the things is that obviously this is not a new movement in terms of sort of trying to expose this abuse. This is definitely not something new sadly.

[00:28:15] But as you said, there are things like the internet that have helped sort of shine a spotlight on it and I think are forcing us as a society to acknowledge its existence in a way that maybe we couldn't before. And it forces us to deal with it.

[00:28:33] Whereas before, as you said, probably before the internet, there were probably countless stories like this that were more easily swept under the rug.

[00:28:42] But now things like your book and these websites and social media and these platforms that people have where they can share these stories instantaneously and put it in front of a countless number of people. You know an infinite audience.

[00:29:02] What is your hope like, you know, coming out of this book and writing this book and putting these stories out there. What do you see coming out of this going forward? So I'm starting to get like reader response, which is interesting.

[00:29:24] I recognize that I wrote a hard book and I even encourage people in the internet to take their time and people are. So I'm hearing from survivors who took a month and a half or so to read the book.

[00:29:40] And it's triggering and it also makes them feel seen. So I think my first goal is just for people to know someone has seen all of this. I just want people to bear witness to it. My second hope, and it goes two directions.

[00:30:05] I am working with an American Baptist pastor in my town to do an event about the book and bringing in clergy. And when we have them at this book, he said, what do you want to do? I said, let's train them.

[00:30:23] So we're bringing in grace and they're going to do an introductory training on how to keep your congregation safe. So I want to be involved in this encouraging clergy to understand, like you have responsibility here and you can deploy that. You can be part of the solution.

[00:30:47] On the other side, I'm hoping to spotlight folks in Ohio, representative Jennifer Cameron, who is pushing legislation to extend the statute of limitations for outside holy groups. As you saw throughout the book, very often the statute of limitations just was a roadblock.

[00:31:14] They couldn't keep up in getting to a specific people. So it takes quite a while to come up with it all within a sense. So I think if the book can be a vehicle for people to know, we know you're there.

[00:31:32] And then also maybe change some churches and change some laws. That's what I'd like to do. Yeah. And the other thing I think of too is from the perspective of someone who's a guy, clearly.

[00:31:46] And I think it's easy to, from the perspective of being a guy, is to think, well, these stories are about women. And surely I can't possibly understand what it's like to go through that experience. I'm not a woman. I never will be. And I don't know.

[00:32:05] I don't know what it's like. I can imagine what it's like. But I think guys have a massive role to play in this, in the sense that when we see these things happen, we've got to hold our other guys accountable.

[00:32:19] And I think back to the story we talked about earlier where there's this entire board, presumably of men, who's just sort of let it slide. Yeah. And they're in a position to do something and say, no, this isn't OK.

[00:32:33] This is not acceptable behavior by our fellow man here. And it shouldn't take having a daughter, for example, to say, I would never want that to happen to my daughter. The humanity within you should be enough to say, this isn't right.

[00:32:52] This is not loving. This is not what Jesus wanted. And we need to stand up and speak out and support our sisters and our mothers and make sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen again, because this is abuse. It's abuse. And male survivors too. Yes. Yeah.

[00:33:15] Yeah. And it adds, I think, some items. No, no, no. There are male survivors too. And especially in the women who are just born first. And I think there's a whole lot of baggage stemming from the form of race they were raised with.

[00:33:39] It makes it more difficult for men to step up. And so this is a cause that the people at the forefront of advocacy have in women. It's in service to everyone. Yeah. Gosh, there's so many different psychological aspects to that that we didn't even get into.

[00:34:02] You know, like the notion that so many of us were raised to think that to be a man means to never show your feelings or show supposed weakness and all these things.

[00:34:14] And that's had a lasting impact, generational impact on the way that we handle situations like this to our own mental health and admitting when we need help and allowing ourselves to express feelings and that sort of thing. Yeah, there's a lot of work to be done.

[00:34:33] I think it's safe to say. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you coming on the show. The book is fantastic.

[00:34:43] Again, I think, you know, anything that helps shine a light on situations like this that hopefully help move people to start giving a safe space to victims and providing resources like you talk about.

[00:34:59] It kills me to hear that anyone wasn't provided with the mental health, mental resources, mental health resources that they that they're asking for is just devastating.

[00:35:10] We got to do better. And I appreciate this book so again it's disobedient women, how a small group of faithful women exposed abuse brought down powerful pastors and ignited an evangelical reckoning. Sarah Stancorp thank you very much for coming on the show.

[00:35:24] Thank you so, so much. I really appreciate it. Another man. And they said, You must go take your broken heart and walk to the door. It's good that John you must go.

[00:37:37] You must go. We can't. Go. Thanks for your time. But there's no room for you when there's power. No, you're hurting. We're not listening. And we'd help you. We don't have that kind of time. So go harder. And you'll all be fine. You must go.

[00:39:47] So John and Jen and Jane were on the streets without abandoned by the one supposed to love and keep them warm. Then a voice. And he said, Don't you go. I want your broken heart and beautiful. Beautiful. I felt you hurting. I've seen you give me.

[00:40:35] And I'll stay right here. It may not. But I know they need. Let us go. So come out the rejected and broken and turned away. Let us go. And live out the plan. Leave them into the promised land. So come out my people.

[00:41:28] The rejected and broken and turned away. Let us go. And live out the plan. Leave them into the promised land.