Ep. 174 - Rabbi Brad Hirschfield ”Stories From The Old Testament: The Flood” pt. 4

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[00:01:10] I'm your host, John Williamson, and I'm back with our friend, Rabbi Brad Hirschfield. We've got an ongoing series if you've been following along.

[00:01:19] So last week we touched on the story of Cain and Abel and this week we kind of wrap that up and continue on with the story of the flood. And I've really enjoyed these conversations. I hope you have too.

[00:01:30] I just think it's so important to really reach out and get perspectives from literally the Jewish people whose stories these are. And these stories were written by the Jewish people.

[00:01:45] And so I think it's so important when we look at these rich and beautiful texts to get perspective as often as we can. You know, a lot of us grew up hearing a lot of these stories through the Christian lens.

[00:01:59] And so I think there's some additional beauty to be found there. And hopefully you guys have been enriched and have enjoyed this series so far. So I am certain Rabbi Brad will be back in the future and we'll continue to cover more stories within the Old Testament.

[00:02:15] Always have fun. There's some additional content. We kind of went longer than normal. We had some technology issues during recording. I think the sound came together fine and I was able to kind of piece it together through editing. But we went a little longer than normal.

[00:02:30] So in order to cut it into two bite sized episodes where it wasn't running too long, I did have to cut a piece of the beginning that I do intend on releasing. That we just talked about sort of what's going on in Israel and Palestine.

[00:02:46] I think, you know, he's got some some perspective. He's got family who literally are serving in the Israeli army and special forces who are in harm's way.

[00:02:56] But we talk about the impact to both the Israeli people and the Palestinians and the horrors of war and sort of the collateral damage that occurs anytime there is a conflict. So so I will release that.

[00:03:12] And but just in the sake of continuing with the series and the flow and keeping it under an hour so that way it's not too long, I have to section that out. So more to come next week.

[00:03:26] I'll be back with a brand new guest and a brand new topic. I'm very excited for several of the guests coming up in the very near future. So leading up through Christmas and the holidays here, got a very cool topic to cover starting next week.

[00:03:40] So very excited for you guys to hear some of those. And like I said, we'll bleed over into the new year a little bit, which is unusual for us.

[00:03:48] But then I'll take my my my little break to record for the next season, but also working on a series that's going to take some some time and effort that will not prevent me from from releasing new episodes right around the same time frame we normally do.

[00:04:09] But just know that working on some interesting content in the background. So more to come on that as I have more information sort of in the research stage right now. So more to come. Also, good news.

[00:04:21] I have finally found a company to sort of take over the merch section. So there is a new merch link in in the the link page that we've got there. The Linktree link. There's a new merch page through Printify.

[00:04:38] And I'm slowly but surely getting all of the original designs loaded up into there. But what it's going to do is it's going to offer way faster shipping. It's direct to print. And so I've ordered a couple test batches and fiddling around. I'm not real.

[00:04:57] I'm not super happy with the T-shirts yet, but we'll get them there. But there's a lot of other merchandise options that we're able to provide hats and hoodies and all sorts of things. The usual stuff, coffee cups, pint glasses, the T-shirts.

[00:05:14] But now we've even got tank tops and mouse pads and all sorts of stuff. So check it out if you're interested. We've got some new designs up there as well, including some quote shirts from over the years.

[00:05:25] But lots of new options to be found and much, much faster shipping. Like I said, it's gotten here within about a week, maybe less. So pretty, pretty quick. And the other cool thing is for the first time we're able to offer international shipping.

[00:05:41] So no matter where you're listening from in the world, you should be able to order from the site. So definitely would love some feedback on if you like it or if there's certain things you'd like to see. Please let me know.

[00:05:53] And definitely willing to make some tweaks there and try to keep the cost as low as humanly possible. So very excited to launch that. Like I said, the link is in our link tree link in the bio and through our social media and our website as well.

[00:06:10] So find it anywhere there. So all right. Without further ado, let's get to it. This is part four or part six, depending on how you're following along here. With Dr. Rabbi Brad Hirshfield. Yeah, I like that.

[00:06:40] And the other thing too, I kind of want your opinion on as well is one of the things that's interesting about this story that I think I've always found fascinating is in God's sort of reaction.

[00:06:52] You know, it's even God seems to understand, which seems to be a theme throughout a lot of the biblical stories is the fact that God seems to understand that violence begets more violence.

[00:07:04] And so he could have just smited Cain off the face of the earth, but yet he doesn't. As you said, he protects Cain. Yeah, I think, you know, that's the interesting thing. I completely agree with you that violence generally does beget more violence.

[00:07:23] If I'm also allowed to say that doesn't always mean it's not appropriate. Like, I feel like the people who know that sometimes and I admit I'm not a pacifist. I don't think this tradition is pacifist.

[00:07:38] I don't apologize for that because in an imperfect world, I think there are times that imperfect means are called for. What I think is interesting is that the people who often know that violence may be necessary.

[00:07:53] Don't often appreciate it may be necessary, but it's a really poor solution. Even if it's necessary in the immediate term, it's going to bite you in the behind because it typically begets more and that the people who understand that violence tends to be get more violence.

[00:08:15] Often end up using that awareness as an excuse not to fight for anything at all. And that concerns me because typically the thing they advocate not fighting for is someone else's suffering. But if someone came to burn down their house, they'd fight like hell.

[00:08:36] So I think you're right and I think that God wrestles with that story and I, you know, I don't know if we're going to do it today or in a subsequent. Session, I think that turns us right toward the story of Noah and the flood.

[00:08:53] And it's not just people who wrestle with that impulse to destroy everything when it goes wrong. God is still wrestling with that impulse to destroy everything when it goes wrong. And I think the trick is if we can imagine that if God wrestles with the impulse.

[00:09:14] It's not surprising that we do. And if it's a real wrestling match, it means if we're inclined to think yes, you got to destroy it all. Give yourself a moment to wonder maybe not. And if you think that nothing ever needs to be destroyed.

[00:09:32] Give yourself a moment to think it may be tragic but sometimes certain things do need to be destroyed. That's what a real wrestling match is. Yeah, that's good. I like that. And it's also not to say that repercussions aren't necessary. You know, or a punishment isn't necessary.

[00:09:58] Right, right. It's exactly right. It may be necessary doesn't make it's not tragic. Right? You know, the fact that it's necessary doesn't mean, oh, okay, then I don't have to worry about it. No, no, no. It may be necessary and you really may have to worry about it.

[00:10:11] The truth is I can tell you no decent person ever went to war. No matter how just the cause. And didn't pay a price for it. The price may be buried. We may work our whole lives to avoid it.

[00:10:37] And it's important to know the fact we pay a price does not mean that we're going to pay it. It's important to know the fact we pay a price does not mean we're feeling guilty for what we did. It may be a just cause.

[00:10:56] But that is the nature of understanding that even when you do the right thing and you do it the best possible way, there's still a cost if it involves harming other people. And it doesn't make us weak to admit that. In fact, I would argue it makes us

[00:11:19] better and more ethical combatants who are slower to fight, quicker to find peace, but unafraid of fighting when absolutely necessary. And in our imperfect world, that seems to be the triangle in which we all need to locate ourselves. Slower to fight, not refusing to fight, slower to fight,

[00:11:45] quicker to find peace, and being willing to fight when the first two are truly impossible. Yeah, well said. Yeah, unfortunately we live in a world where, you know, uh, Hitler's have existed and uh, you know, and you can't uh, there are certain situations like that where, you know,

[00:12:13] arguably if we had reacted more quickly, you know, more lives could have been spared. Right, and by the way, I do want to at least nod in the direction of traditions that are pacifist, right? I mean, I have Buddhist friends who would say that's very nice talk, Brad,

[00:12:27] but the fact is the violence has to end somewhere. And how do you know this is the moment it has to end with you? And my response is you may be right, but I don't see the world that way and I can't see the world that way

[00:12:42] if only because the track record of people who claim to see that world, the world that way almost always end up willing to fight when it's their behind on the line. Which kind of puts the lie to the whole thing.

[00:12:56] Right? If someone starts their argument for pacifism saying my family has been murdered and burned and raped, but I chose not to respond with violence, again, I think they're crazy, but I have real respect for that because that's an authentic expression of real pacifism.

[00:13:17] Again, I don't think it's the way to go, but no one can argue with that because when you're willing to bear the brunt of that for which you advocate, it may be a wrong decision, but it's not an unethical decision.

[00:13:32] But I admit it's not mine and I wouldn't be a pacifist and I think the Hitler example is well chosen because we know as a matter of historical fact that there were Christian theologians who talked about the appropriateness of taking violent action against Hitler

[00:13:50] and they ultimately decided no, we don't really think we should do that. And I understand two things. I'm sure they were well-intentioned. And they were terribly wrong. So we tend to figure out that we were wrong, but usually after other people have suffered

[00:14:11] and that's a little too late for my liking. Yeah, yep. So we have to be on the hook and to get it wrong and then to live with the price we pay for taking strong action. I don't know any way around that.

[00:14:26] Yeah, and we have to learn from our mistakes. Yeah, and we have to learn from history. You know as a history buff myself, like, you know, we have to take these examples, you know, throughout history and learn from our forefathers and our foremothers and

[00:14:41] and hopefully do better the next time and yet sometimes there are certain lessons we seem to not learn very well. I mean again, this goes back to what the power of all these stories in the Bible is.

[00:14:52] I think it's because they have to keep being relearned. I think that's what it means to be human. Right? I would like to believe there is a piece of me, you know, a little bit magical thing. Oh, no, we'll get it and that'll be the end of it.

[00:15:04] But then I will be betraying the power of having unanswered questions, right? Unless we really believe the questions are unanswered. If where are you is unanswered, if I'm my brother's keeper unanswered is because we are always being called and recalled to re-answer it.

[00:15:19] And I guess what I would say is my more realistic hope is we'll never answer it finally and totally but hopefully in each re-answering we're re-answering at a somewhat higher level, a somewhat more evolved level, a somewhat more compassionate level.

[00:15:37] But I think we'll probably have to keep re-answering these questions in every generation. Yeah, I think you're right. So Sue, do you want to get into the flood? If we think the internet will be good to us,

[00:15:50] I have the time and we certainly can. So that's if it works, yeah, we may as well see if we can knock it out. And then especially if we can switch over to phone, you know, for part of it, if that'll actually give you the audit,

[00:16:03] you know, the audio quality you need, we can switch over to that as a backup. But yeah, why don't we you know, why don't we start? All right, sounds good. So, I mean, let me start by asking you a question.

[00:16:19] If I were to say to you in the circles that you move in, spiritually, intellectually, religiously, whatever, what's the story of Noah and the flood about? Wow. Yeah, I'm trying to think back and where I like to pull from is sort of the vacation bible school

[00:16:42] versions of these stories because I think a lot of people like unfortunately within the Christian circles tend to stick with those versions of the stories and never evolve past it into the land of like metaphor and you know, and that sort of thing.

[00:16:59] So I think the version that I was taught growing up probably like a lot of listeners was that, you know, God was unhappy with the way that the world had kind of drifted and so wanted to start from scratch and hit the reset button.

[00:17:13] But wanted to save, you know, this family who had been the good people, you know, and let's rescue some of the animals and we'll have a small population for which to repopulate the earth after we wipe out all the evil and the sickness and all the evil and

[00:17:31] we'll start over. And that's sort of the version that we were born and raised with. Yeah, I mean, I think that's so I think that is right. What's interesting to me is the way it really does pick up on the themes that we've talked about

[00:17:45] you know before about this issue of constantly to re-ask and re-answer these eternal questions and that even God is struggling with the impulse to double down on the very thing that creates the problem. So we're kind of all in this together

[00:18:02] so much so that if you look in Genesis chapter 6, and it's kind of the the precursor to the story, the Lord saw how great was humans wickedness on earth and how every plan devised by people's minds was nothing but evil all the time. And the Lord regretted

[00:18:24] that he had made man on earth and his heart was saddened. We have two more verses and we'll come back. The Lord said I will blot out from the earth

[00:18:35] the men whom I created men together with beasts creeping things and birds of the sky for I regret that I made them. But Noah found favor with the Lord. So let's go slow. First of all, I think for a lot of people God has regret.

[00:18:56] If we've been told that God is this all-knowing being then how can that God have regret? Regret is predicated upon the idea that I thought it would go one way. It went another way and now I feel bad about it.

[00:19:17] Now, I don't know about you, but that's not the God most of us were introduced to as children. Right? A God, and I think it's fascinating because we're not talking about some analytic book, this is the Bible itself seems comfortable describing a God who is able

[00:19:42] to have regret. And there's I think that question right, whether it's about God or it's about us is not whether we have done things that we regret but when we do things we have regretted what then?

[00:20:06] That to me is what the whole story is about because if God can have regrets then surely we can have regrets. Right? If God is God and entitled to experience oops then surely we are.

[00:20:24] And that really from the very beginning I think what this story is inviting us to imagine is not that if you have regrets you should, you know think oh God because what does God say? Oh me I really messed up.

[00:20:39] And I'm not trying to be glib but it goes all the way up if you think of God that way and the story is willing to say that God, God's self has regret. So listen human you're going to do things you're going to have regrets about

[00:20:54] right? Because according to this story, it's not only what it means to be human apparently it's what it means to be God. And yet with that then the question isn't not whether or not we do things we regret

[00:21:07] but what do we do when we've done things we regret because we're all going to be in that place and I think that the flood story ultimately is even if the one who we've always been told has all the power

[00:21:31] even if the one who we've always been told has all the power knows everything can see everything even that one can go whoops I feel sad I look at my life as creator and master of the universe I'm sad

[00:21:52] because this didn't work out the way I would have hoped and I don't know about you, but I don't know a person who hasn't had that experience

[00:22:11] So once you know, we've all had that experience. I guess you could make people feel terrible about having done something they now regret But that's not what this story does Instead this story opens up with the character who's supposed to be

[00:22:28] beyond the capacity for regret having regret so And then saying the real question is not have you done something you regret It's now that you're confronting that which you regret How do you want to deal with it? What do you want to do about it?

[00:22:44] And that's important because even to ask that question, what do you want to do about it suggests there are things you can do That oftentimes I think when we feel regret or remorse like well it happened

[00:22:58] Well, it happened what what can I do we wallow in that powerlessness and the story says no You can have real regret and you know, forgive me. It sucks. It's painful God is sad We are sad When we've done the things we regret

[00:23:19] I wish my life had gone a different direction. I regret this and I feel bad about that. That's fine. You can But don't pretend there aren't things you can do now And so from the very beginning I think

[00:23:33] The flood which is often read as this story pure unbridled rage on the front end It's not It's set up by the fact that yes, we may feel those things but there are things we can do There are choices that we can make

[00:23:51] And in fact that's even in the description because god looks out and says I I made humanity on the earth and You know, they were lousy from the beginning and I regret that I made them But noah I like noah I like him

[00:24:14] And I think that that's a really important thing because To imagine that even in the midst of our regret We tend to say oh I regret it all Slow down It feels like everything about whatever the it was was wrong, but here maybe we can be like god

[00:24:42] Is there anything in that messed up deal You can still identify. I like that Right most of it colossal mistake But I like that And I wonder Could I rebuild from there

[00:25:09] So I think from the very beginning the flood story is a story of wrestling with the first impulse wipe it all out To taking a breath in the midst of our regrets saying Can I find anything In that relationship in that job in that structure

[00:25:32] That I did like And if I can Maybe I can rebuild from that I think you just nailed a perfect analogy For a lot of the listeners out there and their and their former faith lives and why they've gravitated towards this podcast because they

[00:25:58] oftentimes grew up in a very damaging form of religion Um and so we we always have said since the beginning of time, uh Since the beginning of time since the beginning of the podcast seven years ago that maybe

[00:26:14] Maybe slow down a little bit. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water because part of part of our logo even and we did this intentionally was Within the term deconstruction we put brackets around the dne so that there's construction Yeah

[00:26:30] I love that. I remember the first time I noticed I was like, okay i'm sold Ha ha ha. I love that you noticed that that's great um Yeah, and I think the interesting thing is that we have to be able to do that

[00:26:49] Now I get it there are times when no nothing good can be found there and and I can't be so arrogant to say well If there's really really really nothing you still have to go back. No that that's not fair that that really seems kind of cruel actually

[00:27:04] But most of us most of the time Can actually find I mean again, we're talking about one person among the whole human race So It doesn't have to be a lot

[00:27:19] But it turns out that that little bit that one guy and then we're going to see a little bit his family You can actually rebuild an awful lot from that little spark

[00:27:29] And I think the idea that I feel terrible about it and for legitimate reasons it was really bad Doesn't is not the same as every last thing there was bad And I think actually one of the gifts we can give ourselves in coping

[00:27:50] With those kinds of regrets is to say, you know what? The most empowering thing I can do is to find that bit of it that actually did work Get rid of all the rest of it And build from that piece that worked

[00:28:06] That piece that worked and by the way any question about how imperfect That little piece that work can be You have this phrase in verse 9 of chapter 6, this is the line of noah noah was a righteous man He was righteous In his generations now I don't know

[00:28:37] I don't recall any christian commentators picking up on that strange phrase right that he was righteous and righteous in all of his generations But jewish exegesis jewish commentary on it sees two famously Divergent understandings of what that when he was righteous in his generations As opposed to when

[00:29:02] Ha ha and so one school of jewish thought is he was So righteous that even surrounded by all of these awful people He was really righteous That he was like So perfect in that way

[00:29:25] That he was beyond being influenced by all the terrible things that he swam amongst But the other school of thought Is kind of the opposite? In the context of the awful people he lived with he looked okay He was righteous in his generation

[00:29:56] But if he had lived in the generation of really righteous people, he'd be nothing special And I think that that last one like that Is really important because it's a way of saying when we find the bright spots Amidst the things in our lives that we regret

[00:30:15] They just have to be bright relative to the other garbage. We're trying to get past They don't have to be perfect They just have to be bright enough. They stood out in the midst of a dark moment That we think there's something there to continue investing in

[00:30:40] And that's a choice we get to make And no one can make that choice for us but us and I think that's why the commentators and in Jewish tradition really Offer both you could say no. No Noah got picked because he was perfect

[00:30:55] He was really perfect. Like he was so perfect that even living amongst all these dirt bags. He was perfect Which seems not to be the case for other reasons in the story I would argue Right because if he was that perfect Right because if he was that perfect

[00:31:13] To go to the end of the story. Why does he need to get wasted after the flood and he comes out of the ark Right, he was clearly carrying a lot of pain And it wasn't so perfect and he was pretty despondent and he needs to get drunk

[00:31:29] Which is both understandable and never successful So right truly that And unlike abraham who you know one day we'll get to those stories. Hopefully When abraham is told that god's gonna wipe out sodom and gomorrah he argues

[00:31:44] When noah is told that god's gonna wipe out humanity. He goes. Yeah, but I get a raft, right? so It's a funny kind of perfect. I really do think the simpler meaning of the text is actually The first option which is that no, he wasn't perfect

[00:32:06] His righteousness was in context He was better than those amongst whom he lived He was far from perfect in the same way that we can look back on our lives as people As believers into non-believers and to re-believers whatever that might look like

[00:32:25] By seizing on the parts that were far from perfect, but were bright spots And asking since that's what i've got to work with in the world Just like god says I guess i'm gonna have to work with what I got Because you know, why not? Destroy everything

[00:32:46] Why work with what you got? I mean a rational argument might have been isn't that what got us into this problem to begin with? Yeah, but why would I work with the same crappy raw materials Maybe that's like the ultimate faith in the world

[00:33:07] I mean, maybe that's like the ultimate faith statement since einstein I think it was either the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result Well, maybe this is a kind of holy insanity a kind of sacred crazy

[00:33:22] That god dares to say i'm going to work with the same raw materials But i'm going to get a better outcome Maybe that's the ultimate statement of faith we can have in our lives We can only be ourselves we can only bring what we got

[00:33:43] But can we dare to believe that with everything that's messed up and with all of our shortcomings? As imperfect as each of us is We can actually with the same raw materials Get a better next chapter That's beautiful You know And by the way

[00:34:10] Clearly it's like attention to the story because you go to verse 12 when god saw how corrupt the earth was For all flesh had corrupted its ways on earth god said to no i've decided to put an end to all flesh For the earth is filled with lawlessness

[00:34:23] because of them I'm about to destroy them with the earth Well, wait Clearly you gotta go but god that's not exactly true. You said you're gonna make an end of all flesh What do you think? I am you're not making an end of me

[00:34:39] So it's like i'm gonna make an end off of all flesh but not exactly Why would you make that declaration i'm gonna wipe it all out When clearly you're not going to wipe it all out, right, I mean don't we all do that i'm done with you Right

[00:35:08] And it's a totally reasonable response in a lot of situations But there's a difference between What is a reasonable emotional response and a smart way to proceed? And again, it's muscle brad, how can you say that it's easy I go look at this verse

[00:35:28] Oh, it's good enough for god. It's good enough for me Right, right if god's allowed to say that's it i'm done i'm wiping out all flesh Well except for you know and oh, yeah, by the way your wife and your sons and their wives and it's like

[00:35:48] So I guess when you said all you didn't really mean all well, not really But the feeling of wanting to wipe it all out is real And it's okay, I think that's part of the story is giving us permission no, it's okay to feel that

[00:36:11] It just might not be real smart to do it because those points of light Imperfect as that light might be They're pretty much always there And I say pretty much because I want to be respectful of moments when people really can't find them

[00:36:34] And I think that's real and deserves to be respected But they're far fewer than we imagine Especially if we go the noah understanding of yeah, he was perfect in his generation. I mean he worked great But relative to the garbage that surrounded him. He was doing okay

[00:36:56] In fact okay enough to rebuild the whole human project off of And what if we just forget treating other people that way what if we treated ourselves that way If we actually said yeah, I am really messed up

[00:37:14] But what if with all that I could i'm actually good enough to rebuild everything Which studio a man did he first date? He might get a new venture. Why bad unless what made you does since the arm toy at a nice ladies a lady

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[00:38:16] powered by shopify yeah that's and some may argue that that might be the starting point you know the ability to forgive oneself you know before you are able to forgive others you know you

[00:38:36] you have to start inside yeah you have to start with you I think so I think you're absolutely right I mean the social analysis I think that people who focus on forgiving others don't appreciate

[00:38:51] you have to start by forgiving yourself and the people are into self-forgiveness don't understand yet but it's not only about you you got to deal with other people too right but I think you're

[00:39:01] right and I think you know again we're way ahead now in the book of Leviticus the genius of that phrase to love your neighbor as yourself is that that verse actually makes no sense unless you

[00:39:13] first love yourself yeah you can't fulfill love your neighbor as yourself unless and until you love yourself now if you only love yourself then you're a very damaged narcissist but if you think that you can love others without first loving yourself you don't that's just not what the

[00:39:32] verse says yeah yeah and a very popular rabbi amongst Christians Jesus felt that that was important enough when when pressed that that was one of the most important things commandments right

[00:39:52] and I don't disagree that ability to be deeply invested in oneself but not as an end in an of oneself right but as the first engine right that love of self is the first engine of loving others

[00:40:14] because there isn't going to be loving others until you can love yourself and you will never fully know what it means to love yourself until you use that experience to love others as well

[00:40:26] yeah amen and I think that that's and again the story keeps building on this because it's so interesting or chapter 7 opens when the Lord said to Noah go into the ark with all your households

[00:40:43] you're ready it's expanding for you alone have I found righteous before me in this generation and then we're told of every clean animal you shall take seven pairs males and their mates and that

[00:40:54] every animal that is not clean to a male and its mate now first of all that verse puts the lie to the idea if they went in two by two to the ark and only two by two because the truth is no

[00:41:07] someone in two by two someone in seven by seven and I think that's a really important thing because we do make distinctions we do privilege some things as better than other things this is the

[00:41:31] language here of using clean and unclean it doesn't mean physically clean it means pure it means connected to will then be offerings in the temple and other things like that right hey it's not a moral cleanliness because they're animals it's not their issue it just where they're

[00:41:47] gonna and yet you couldn't so wait a second if we're rebuilding the world why are we rebuilding the world any unclean animals if right if this is a story which it definitely is that embraces

[00:42:05] distinguishing in the world between that which is clean and that which is unclean and presumably God is on the side of the clean then why would God not just say we'll just take you know seven pairs

[00:42:18] of the clean animals and now I figured it out the unclean ones we should get rid of they were unclean to begin with so let's let them go and that's the point because God isn't only on the

[00:42:29] side of the clean animals you can make choices in fact you have to make choices I think in this world there are hierarchies I don't think all differences are meant to be flattened and neither

[00:42:47] does this story but it would be really helpful if the people who knew that hierarchies mattered also appreciated the necessity of the things that are lower down on their hierarchy absolutely right it's okay we don't have to agree about the hierarchies actually the more important thing

[00:43:11] will be is whatever hierarchy you construct will you at least protect some of the things you don't like you don't do it all I get it seven times as much of what you like in the world fair enough

[00:43:23] but no erasing that which you don't like that you're not allowed to do which is pretty amazing because at the end of the day this is a lifeboat story and most lifeboat stories are about what

[00:43:44] you throw overboard so you can keep living the Bible's lifeboat stories but what you can take in so you can keep living that in fact the only way you can hit the restart button and Lord knows

[00:44:04] we all need to hit that button for different reasons in our lives it's gonna be with everything you've been before then yes there's a fresh start but it's a fresh start with the old ingredients

[00:44:22] maybe that's the mystery of the story is that you could really have a fresh start but you're gonna have to work in all the old ingredients and that's a radical departure for a lifeboat

[00:44:36] story right lifeboat ethics they would took a philosophy so what are you gonna throw out who can you throw overboard here it's no no no if you want a real lifeboat you got to make room for

[00:44:54] everything including the stuff you think is unclean and problematic now again not as much room but some room that there's no way out of I mean that for me is why this is one of the most

[00:45:20] important stories in Scripture because I think especially in a world that tells us either there have to be lines and the lines are bright and we know what's good on the good side no it's bad on

[00:45:35] the bad side that's the end of the story or other people think on all lines are always very bad seems to me this story very near the beginning of a long set of books that is all about drawing

[00:45:51] lines all the time says yeah we're gonna draw a lot of lines here but understand this even on the other side of the line that we say you're not supposed to cross it's part of the story

[00:46:08] they're part of the picture and if you think you're ever gonna hit the restart button without them you're kidding yourself you're not so go ahead Noah get on that arm and yes by all means take

[00:46:31] seven times as much of the stuff we deem to be clean but you're gonna have to take the rattlesnakes and the bees with you and every one of us has things and people we think of as rattlesnakes

[00:46:47] and bees the only question is do we have the bravery of this story to say when whenever arcs were building in our lives we're gonna make at least some room for the rattlesnakes and the

[00:47:03] bees yeah yeah and even to take it further you know even when we don't see it even the the snakes and the bees have a part to play yeah you know right that's exactly right that's exactly right

[00:47:23] you know there's there's no getting around that it's okay you can really have preferences but if you think you're banishing it that's I mean there are other stories where you do but not

[00:47:35] this lifeboat story this lifeboat story is about how much you can get in even the stuff you don't like and understanding everyone can start over but you start over with everything we got you

[00:47:45] there to begin with I love that you know if we could just run our families that way how much pain could we yeah no kidding gosh so so the flood comes in the flood goes and then because what

[00:48:10] you know like they shut up in the boat one bird goes out another bird goes out the other bird comes back and it comes back again and finally knows okay I guess we're done now the bird never

[00:48:19] comes back you must have found a place to be in the world I guess we can get off the damn boat so they get off the boat and we turn to chapter 8 and Noah gets off the boat and he builds an altar

[00:48:33] and then in verse 21 something begins to happen that we've never seen before the Lord smelled the pleasing odor and the Lord said to himself never again will I doom the earth because of man

[00:48:48] since the devisings of man's mind are evil from his youth nor will I ever again destroy every living being as I have done oh I lost you I think it's just a video can you hear me yeah okay good I'm

[00:49:07] gonna keep going okay yeah and this kind of it seems to be continues this theme because God promises I'll never destroy all of humanity again because human beings there's something in them has some

[00:49:29] evil urge from the very beginning of their lives now that's pretty interesting because whether it's obvious or not any reader of the story knows well wait a second if there's a part of people that is

[00:49:45] evil from the beginning aren't you God the one who created these beings which means God's not apologizing for what God does in the story but God is admitting I I have a role to play this now

[00:50:11] imagine when there's been a rupture if however righteous we think we are we were willing to say look I was definitely right I want to be clear the other side is so wrong they're not even wrong but

[00:50:30] I do understand that I played a role now again there are times that's not going to be true there are times that people are so terribly victimized right but that's not true one of the more obvious

[00:50:46] examples that it took us a long time at least in the Western world to come to grips with is when someone is raped no they didn't do anything and I think it's an important example because as far

[00:51:01] as I can tell for a long time people especially women when it happened we're told well there must have been something you did no no full stop no but it would be good for those of us in power and

[00:51:18] God is clearly the power player in the story if when we're utterly convinced we've done the right thing we would stop and ask ourselves what did I do to bring this about I get it I'm right I mean

[00:51:35] what did I do to bring this about in this world in this family in this church in this community I get it I'm right I'm right I'm right they're wrong they're wrong they're wrong but I'm gonna be like

[00:51:54] God and I'm going to own that I contributed to this because the moment God says the human beings are in some way damaged from the outset well you're the one who created them dude this is one

[00:52:17] of those moments when actually genuine belief in God as scripture presents God is far braver and more complicated than most of us have been led to believe this is a God who could say I think I did

[00:52:37] the right thing here but I contributed to this mess and as a result I can't ever wipe them out again it can't because others what is the necessary connection between their evil from the beginning

[00:52:57] and therefore I can't wipe them out why not if they're evil from the beginning go ahead wipe them out except that it's just the opposite it's that no no if they're evil from the beginning

[00:53:09] and you're the one who created them no you can't wipe them out because you're implicated okay just imagine we took it no larger all it's pretty serious with parents and children when

[00:53:28] they get angry at one another and by the way each side always thinks they're in the right and very little has never changed that I say that both as someone who obviously was a child

[00:53:43] and someone who is now the parent of adult children but one thing everyone can always do is be like God and say what did I do that contributed to this I know it's mostly them

[00:53:55] and they're completely wrong but I contributed to this I know how much healing can come from that especially because in my experience with the other person needs at that moment isn't for

[00:54:16] us to fix everything it's for us to admit that we know we played a role in messing it up that that itself is so epically healing suddenly and you know as you hear me say a lot if God can do

[00:54:36] it then we should be able to do it so yeah you know and then I think it gets even better because that could be the end of the story right that would be a perfectly uplifting great end of the

[00:54:58] story but it's not this is God reflecting to God's self which is good but now we're gonna see something even more profound which is God reflecting on that awareness with humans and that mutual

[00:55:20] reflection and obligation that deal that we make with ourselves and with others the fancy word for that is covenant and this story doesn't end without exploring that covenant because it could have been God reflects on God's self and I know I've implicated so I'll never destroy them again

[00:55:39] and I'm not gonna tell them because they're humans let's not get carried away but in fact that's exactly what God does chapter 9 God blessed no one his sons and said to them be fertile and

[00:55:49] increased and fill the earth the fear of the dreaded shall be upon all the beasts of the earth and upon the birds of the sky everything within the earth is a stir and upon all the fish of

[00:55:58] the sea they are given into your hand every creature that lives shall be yours to eat as with the green grasses now I give you these now until we got those last like eight words or so

[00:56:09] that's a reiteration of the blessing that's given to Adam and Eve right be fertile and mult increase and you know multiply and fill the earth and everything the dread on those last few words

[00:56:23] all the sudden as well we went from being vegetarians to being carnivores in like eight words now again full transparency I'm a vegetarian but that but that's neither here nor there this is

[00:56:38] a really interesting moment why is this of all moments does humanity which until this time was purely vegetarian and now God says oh by the way you can eat me what's what's that about this is

[00:57:06] the beginning of the first covenant that God will make with humans and it begins by God saying you used to be vegetarians now you're allowed to eat meat we'll see there's rules that go with it why

[00:57:19] that is but just what and again I would ask you does that shift come up in the teaching of the story in the circles you usually have moved through now that piece never comes up it's a

[00:57:34] pretty epic shift yeah right the pre-flood world was a world of vegetarians now it's a world of carnivores and I think what's going on and this is what lies the heart of any covenantal relationship

[00:57:59] is if you were created in my image God says I have to give you the power and authority that I've irrigated to myself before the flood you only knew me God as a creator not as a lifetaker you

[00:58:26] have now met me as a lifetaker if I'm going to be a lifetaker and you're created in my image I guess I have to seed some of that power to you Wow and in that sense I think what you're seeing is that

[00:58:55] God is exercising increasing restraint of God's power by seeding more power and authority to human beings if I want you to be like me and I reserve the right to take life then I have to seed some

[00:59:15] authority to you to take life which by the way is why I you know I want to be clear and I said I'm a vegetarian which is only partially true because I'm really I do eat some fish so I'm kind

[00:59:29] of a pescatarian and there are reasons why in Jewish culture that counts as vegetarianism because in Jewish food laws fish is like vegetables it's not like meat so it's not kind of that's

[00:59:38] totally what happens I don't judge people who are carnivores I think it's really a toss-up I think eating a vegetarian diet is in some ways Edenic right I don't want things to die for me

[00:59:56] to live but it's actually to some extent an abrogation of my own power that people who eat meat are actually more embracing of their power as humans sometimes than I am right I said oh no

[01:00:18] I don't want stuff to die so I'm not going to engage the question failing to engage the question is not the same as meaningfully engaging it that's true right or is or is one of my teachers yeah I

[01:00:32] cast in his book the hungry soul which is about the evolution of you know Jewish really spiritual eating because he goes through Christian traditional but to biblical eat I should say so the thing to remember is that no vegetarian ever took responsibility for the life they were taking

[01:00:49] that's interesting right my way of saying it is to be a vegetarian you at least run the risk of confusing a default with a victory I like that I'm not playing the game now I believe it's a

[01:01:11] defensible position because I don't think it's a great game to play this business of eating meat so I prefer not to play it but I can't dismiss people who play the game now if playing the game

[01:01:25] you're just going to the local supermarket and buying shrink-wracked meat and not thinking about where it came from then I think you're failing but if there's any sense of food law we'll talk

[01:01:35] in a second where that begins right here in this chapter but all the way to people who hunt for their own meat right these are all ways of being directly accountable for what you consume that's covenantal

[01:01:47] responsibility so I think there is a shift and the shift is very much about God saying okay you've met me in a new way the only way you can rise to the fullness of being in my image is if I seed

[01:02:06] ever greater amounts of authority and power to you and in ways that are proportionate to the power that I've shown you I have so you've met me as one who takes flesh so I'm gonna let you be

[01:02:20] one who takes flesh but doing that is gonna require some commitments from both of us we read before that God says I'm never gonna do this again so there's a rainbow in the sky forget whether you

[01:02:38] know the fairy tale sound of the story that's not the important point the moment that God says I've committed to doing something I'll never wipe out the world again there has to be a concrete action

[01:02:50] taken the concrete actions I will put a symbol over all over you that will remind you and the moment that God says you can eat meat yeah but there are rules you can't have the blood and so I

[01:03:09] think this is a really important understanding that rules don't exist in this covenantal system for their own sake they exist as concretizations of the values of the covenant so if God's gonna

[01:03:28] commit to never wiping out humanity again great we have a right to say how are you gonna show me you mean it God I know your God and your words good enough but how are you gonna show us you

[01:03:45] I get it we have power and authority in unprecedented ways including the ability to eat lamb chops now how are we gonna prove that it's not just a pure self-indulgence what

[01:04:03] are the rules going to be that accompany it that with every new form of power people get they also get new forms of responsibility it's not about shrinking from power it's actually about taking

[01:04:22] on more power but with every new power comes new obligation and responsibility and that's when the story can end the story can't end until what was seemingly the all-powerful God seeds some power

[01:04:39] and has to live with making concrete that seating and that we so-called puny people are no we really like that we can take life but if we're gonna embrace that power which we are meant to embrace

[01:04:55] it's got to come with responsibilities and obligations that's perfect perfect spot yeah and it makes it makes me think too of I've got I've got friends who are our hunters you know

[01:05:16] it's not personally for me but who are hunters who are what I would refer to as more responsible hunters in the sense that they use as much as they can they don't take what they can't use

[01:05:29] kind of thing and but they've described it as almost a a spiritual experience in the sense that when they take like a deer for example it's it's an emotional ordeal you know they

[01:05:44] realize the implications of what just occurred like this deer has given its life to sustain me and my family kind of thing it's everyone I know who has nothing that way it's an absolute religious

[01:05:57] experience and it's funny because like I didn't grow up in a home where people kept kosher but my father loved to fish and we would go places there was one restaurant we used to go to as a

[01:06:08] kid and they had all these fish mounted on the walls and I knew that my father would go fishing once or twice a year and he came back with you know coolers full of fish that we then ate for

[01:06:18] months and I would oh yeah why don't like you know mount some of the fish they're kind of cool looking and he said that's one thing you will never see me do he goes but they're beautiful

[01:06:35] their food they're not trophies yeah and as a little kid like I know but they're so cool if you go to this restaurant I said he's big fish they're mounted on the wall can't we do that

[01:06:49] he said no he said no he said catching them is definitely a rush but their food they're not trophies and he would never go sport fishing like for big fish like that he didn't know and it was

[01:07:12] funny because he never hunted he had a visceral opposition to hunting but he had no problem with fishing but the through line is very much what you said they're not trophies and every person

[01:07:25] I know who hunts that is their keeping kosher I would say if I was translating it back into Jewish language it is the awareness that with the power to take this other life to nurture my life

[01:07:38] and the lives of those I love come real obligations and responsibilities and it seems to me that that's a big piece of this story it's not about shrinking from our power it's about embracing ever greater

[01:07:55] human capacity as long as there's also ever greater human responsibility and obligation yeah yep and your dad understood that obviously yeah he felt very strongly that was funny I'm not as a couch

[01:08:13] so I said but they're cool can't we have a couple no you can eat them nope nope we're not mounting anything it's funny because we were staying somewhere out in Colorado our kids were little

[01:08:30] our oldest was about five years old we had rented this apartment blind and we walked in and there were animal heads all over the apartment oh geez and we were a little creeped out but like I'm a

[01:08:40] big boy I know people do this right but our daughter looked at us yeah like almost she goes those aren't real are they and even though I don't believe it's ever right to lie to your kids 100%

[01:08:56] said no honey of course not think you made the right because in that instance there was no way I was gonna tell this poor five oh yeah those are real deer heads someone you know chopped them off

[01:09:10] and put them on the wall haha it was just no way it is a strange practice when you put it that way I get it by the way I get why it's viscerally appealing it's why this story is constructed

[01:09:24] the way it is because it is viscerally appealing to demonstrate our unbridled mastery only it turns out that our mastery is meant to be mastery but not unbridled yeah yeah it's not an apology for

[01:09:44] the power we're meant to possess we are actually met that's when people say playing God and they mean something negative bite I think playing God is what we're here to do but playing God means also accepting ever greater responsibility and obligation for whatever it is we play God

[01:10:01] over man that's good that's a that's a perfect place to I think that's the perfect place to end today and then where where would you like to pick up next time I think we have a couple ideas it

[01:10:20] sounds like yeah I mean what we'll sit with it for a bit we'll figure it out and be in touch but this will keep us this will keep your listeners good for a bit so why don't we go with that and

[01:10:31] let's touch base note in a couple of weeks and we'll go where we go next maybe I mean I mentioned the Tower of Babel story and technology and we get to Abraham so we got we got things to do

[01:10:42] perfect I love it this is great and I appreciate you hanging in there through the technology difficulties we had today I'm 100% convinced the problem was on my end so I should be apologizing

[01:10:55] to you all right I will talk to you soon be in touch you need anything let me know his stuff gets edited because I will say as we've shared this with our audience they have loved it they're just

[01:11:12] loving that makes me so happy that's great that is fantastic well there you go you love it yeah well my love to them and and we'll keep this thing going I think people on both sides are really

[01:11:27] fascinated by these types of conversations so okay thank you so much be well does he know that I'm alive? is God even here? does she care that I doubt? does she care that I fear? something tells me God will survive so take a breath mystery that is this

[01:12:19] a universe we don't know I think the truth is if God has a face his face must look like yours did God kill his kid? did he have to have blood before he would forgive? maybe we made a God that looks like us does God know my name?

[01:13:16] is the ache in my soul just confined to my brain? even so does that mean it's not real? so take a breath mystery that is this a universe we don't know if God has a face her face must look like yours

[01:14:05] a face like Atina and Ahmed or Mildred a Russ and his husband Gus and their children a face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone a Lucy born with an extra chromosome a Pablo with legs he can't move by himself

[01:14:42] a girl born a Daniel who now is Danielle a Bill H and Yee even white guys named Todd if you have a heartbeat you are the face so take a breath mystery that is this a universe we don't know if God has a face her face must look

[01:15:52] if God has a face his face must look if God has a face the face it must be yours do you wish for someone who understands you like no one else? someone who can make your wishes come true

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