The Deconstructionists Podcast
Guest: Dr. Michelle Keener
In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Michelle Keener, we go deeper into the themes of her book, Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors, and what it means to engage scripture after certainty has cracked.
If Part 1 explored how harmful interpretations take root, this episode focuses on what comes after—especially for those navigating trauma, deconstruction, and the loss of familiar frameworks.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How trauma reshapes identity, faith, and one’s image of God
- Why grief, anger, and protest are not spiritual failures
- How Job’s refusal to accept easy answers can be a model for honesty
- What it looks like to reconstruct meaning without rushing toward certainty
Dr. Keener brings both scholarly depth and deep compassion to this conversation, offering language and insight for experiences many people struggle to name.
If you’ve ever been told your pain needed a theological explanation…
If you’ve been pressured to “trust God” instead of being heard…
Or if you’re learning how to hold faith with open hands—
This conversation is for you.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Michelle Keener is a scholar, writer, and educator whose work centers on biblical interpretation, trauma-informed theology, and care for those harmed by religious systems. Her book Comfort in the Ashes explores how the Book of Job can be reclaimed as a companion for trauma survivors rather than a weapon used against them.
https://www.michellekeener.com/
For all things Deconstructionists: www.thedeconstructionsts.org
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheDeconstructionistsPodcast
Special Music Provided By: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.
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00:00 --> 00:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The first one that pops to mind is let go and let go.
00:02 --> 00:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other one is it's not so much a phrase as a concept that I would call weaponizing forgiveness.
00:08 --> 00:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And this idea of if you would just forgive then everything will be fine.
00:15 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I have seen is we put a much greater burden on a victim or a survivor to forgive than we put on a perpetrator to repent.
00:25 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is wildly unfair.
00:29 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_00]: right, to say, you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to forgive.
00:33 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you are refusing to forgive, well, now you're an unforgiveness and now this is your problem.
00:39 --> 00:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would suggest, are we investing as much time and as much energy in preaching and teaching genuine repentance as we are forgiveness?
00:57 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to The Deconstructious Podcast, I'm your host John Williamson, and in part one of our conversation with Dr. Michelle Keener, we explored how belief systems are formed, and how the book of Job has often been weaponized in ways that silence pain rather than honor it.
01:13 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_04]: In the second part, we go deeper into the heart of her book, comfort in the ashes, and what it offers to those navigating trauma, faith, and deconstruction.
01:23 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_04]: And so without further ado, I give you part two of my conversation with Dr. Michelle Keener.
01:37 --> 01:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:38 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:38 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_04]: I think a huge part of when you're going through something, you know, traumatic is the isolation that comes with it and sort of feeling disconnected and alone in that there's actually a documentary.
01:49 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if you've seen it.
01:50 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it just came out.
01:51 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_04]: I want to say it was on Netflix.
01:53 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I literally literally just watched it.
01:55 --> 02:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Fascinating documentary about this group of Navy Seals, who had been through multiple tours and had just intense PTSD.
02:06 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And ultimately, they took everything that the vet would give them in terms of medications and talk therapy, they're all doing it all.
02:16 --> 02:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And yet, they're talking about how I think was like some insane statistic, like one in three, one in four, one in five, something like that.
02:25 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_04]: of their comrades had committed suicide because just nothing, nothing helped and then ultimately the whole thing, you know, whole base of the documentary is that they tried this unconventional treatment through psychedelics.
02:39 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And almost all of them, interestingly, at the end, you know, came through the experience where they were forced to face things that had nothing to do with combat.
02:50 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_04]: And the death around them, almost all of them, it had somebody to do with childhood trauma.
02:55 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_04]: Ultimately, when they were, it allowed them to sort of let down their defenses and sort of just be together and acknowledge to what another, and you see, there's this scene that was just heartbreaking where,
03:06 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, the, the one gentleman who was sort of the last to go through it, the sitting there and just sobbing and the other two just scoot up next to him and they're off this beach and they're just patting him on the back and rubbing his shoulder and why guy puts his head down on his shoulder and then really say anything, you know.
03:23 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, none of them are trying to give them this wise golden advice, you know, they're just sort of letting him feel it in the moment and let his guard down and not judge and not do any of that normal stuff that we do.
03:36 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_04]: No platitudes, none of that.
03:38 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_04]: They're just there.
03:40 --> 03:46 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, and there's this sense of quiet silent understanding, and it was just this beautiful moment.
03:46 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I don't know.
03:48 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
03:48 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_04]: I just made me think of that.
03:50 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And I know how, how apropos that I just watched that.
03:55 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's literally about some of the most severe trauma that you could possibly experience in your life.
04:00 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_04]: So.
04:03 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So, talk about ministry of presence.
04:06 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_04]: When you say ministry of presence, what does it look like in real life?
04:09 --> 04:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Words, posture, pacing, follow-up, and that sort of thing.
04:15 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think you just painted a really beautiful picture of it, right?
04:20 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_00]: This idea of just these these men sitting together, right?
04:25 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't have an answer for you.
04:27 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to go give you a three point plan for how to get over this, right?
04:32 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It sucks and it's terrible.
04:34 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to sit with you because I've been through something.
04:37 --> 04:39 [SPEAKER_00]: that also sucks and is terrible.
04:39 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And this idea that there is, again, to kind of belabor the point, there is something very healing in just the presence of another human being and and breaking through that idea of isolation of nobody in the world knows what this is like.
04:58 --> 05:22 [SPEAKER_00]: right even just the I know for me personally that very strange experience of being in the midst of trauma and being in the midst of so much pain and then having go to the grocery store and just like standing in the grocery store trying to pick lemons and I'm watching all of these people just going around their daily life and like do you none of you understand?
05:22 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: like, what's happening right now?
05:23 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is no, they don't.
05:26 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They absolutely don't.
05:27 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and it's not their fault, right?
05:30 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But the idea of having someone who's willing to kind of enter into that storm with you.
05:37 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_00]: so that you're not trying to navigate alone, that to me is such an incredible picture of the love of God, right?
05:48 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And to kind of bring us back to the book of Job, God meets Job right where he is in the Asheep.
05:57 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_00]: God shows up in the middle of his pain in the middle of his suffering and what a privilege we have.
06:04 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_00]: We have the opportunity to see someone who is suffering, someone who is struggling and to just come alongside them, maybe even in silence and just sit next to them, or maybe it's over a cup of coffee and being able to say, I don't understand fully what you're going through, but I know you're
06:28 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to sit here.
06:29 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to buy you a cup of coffee.
06:31 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to come over to your house.
06:32 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to talk about anything.
06:33 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to sit in the living room with you.
06:37 --> 06:43 [SPEAKER_00]: To alleviate this pressure of, if I start that, then I have to explain it.
06:44 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to be able to give them an answer.
06:45 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to tell them what to do.
06:47 --> 06:56 [SPEAKER_00]: To have the humility to say, that's not my job.
06:56 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to trust their body, I'm going to trust their brain, but I can be that kind of regulating presence.
07:03 --> 07:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I can be that supportive presence for them, and I don't have to fix it.
07:09 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and it isn't that the funniest part about the lesson that we seem to still be learning that that God is trying to communicate to a city Old Testament where the Israelites are freaking out because the temple is about to be destroyed and God's like I don't live in the temple I'm everywhere and like so I don't want you to worry about this physical building and yet it feels like we're still sort of learning that lesson today.
07:34 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a that's a beautiful picture for it right this idea that we somehow have to be perfect or we have to have it all together in in order to to serve God in order to be a part of his family that somehow we got to clean up and look good and yet God's like I saw you at your worst and I'm cool with it right.
07:58 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_00]: like I'm going to be there for you and how we could translate that right as members of the church, how we could be able to look at someone and say, this might be your worst day and I still love you and I'm going to hang out with you.
08:15 --> 08:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
08:17 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_04]: So one of the things that's very, very important to me into this podcast and something that we've talked about beyond just how important mental health and mental health care is, but I do think that there is an opportunity for the church at large to do a better job, especially when it comes to trauma survivors.
08:33 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_04]: And
08:33 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_04]: sort of knowing what I call sort of where the cutoff point is, you know, where we can help up into that point and then we need to refer it out as it were.
08:42 --> 08:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I think those are some things that we can be better at, but if a church wants to become safer for trauma survivors, what are two changes that cost nothing, culture, communication, and two changes that cost something, whether it comes down to structure, training, policy, that sort of thing.
08:59 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, to that cost nothing, let's see.
09:01 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_00]: The first one I would say is we can build some trauma awareness and some trauma welcoming into our church services.
09:10 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's part of your, however the church is structured in terms of preaching or teaching series.
09:16 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we introduce, hey, let's talk about some of these, you know, rough stories in the Bible.
09:21 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a series on Job.
09:23 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a series on limitations.
09:25 --> 09:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's highlight some of those stories that are kind of like not safe for church, right?
09:32 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But let's talk about those.
09:33 --> 09:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about what those people went through and how that reflects the reality of an unpredictable and sometimes catastrophic world.
09:42 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_00]: That would cost nothing, right?
09:43 --> 09:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Build it into your service.
09:45 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Something else that might cost nothing is having
09:52 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_00]: right like hey if we've a lot of churches I know would have like a prayer team hey if you need prayer go over here maybe it's also and I don't know what you would want to call it but hey we also have you know friends in the ashes if you just want to go talk to someone not because you're asking for prayer or solutions but you just want to go talk to someone these are people we trust who have the emotional maturity to to sit with you and steward your story well right
10:20 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Some, let's see some options that might cost, train your staff, right?
10:26 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Train your leadership in trauma, that's one of the things that I do and then I'm passionate about and that I love doing, right?
10:33 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I will come to your church and I will train your staff, I will train your leadership in recognizing trauma and responding to trauma.
10:39 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So you are prepared and so you have kind of that next step in ministry with trauma survivors because the reality is if we look at statistics, your church has a trauma survivor in it.
10:53 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_00]: You may not know it, but they're there.
10:55 --> 11:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And so having that intentional trauma equipped presence and then the other one does it cost maybe maybe it costs some time to develop those referral
11:09 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
11:09 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Who are mental health professionals in your area that you can build relationship with?
11:15 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: People that you could immediately like have on your speed dial.
11:19 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're going through this.
11:20 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to talk to someone.
11:21 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a list of five people.
11:23 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I've met them all.
11:24 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I know them all.
11:25 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_00]: You can go talk to them.
11:27 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: right, develop that network.
11:30 --> 11:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not a reactive thing.
11:31 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I need to come up with some referrals.
11:33 --> 11:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Give me three days.
11:35 --> 11:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Nope.
11:35 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me pull my phone.
11:36 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Here they are.
11:37 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Who do you want?
11:38 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want me to call them for you, I will.
11:40 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want me to go with you, I will.
11:43 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But having those resources already organized and ready to go.
11:48 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_04]: huge.
11:48 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_04]: That to me is absolutely massive, a massive thing to have in hand.
11:53 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of the, I will say, poorly handled situations that I've encountered, or seen over the years, or situations where, again, there doesn't seem to be an awareness, or perhaps it could be an ego thing to, I don't know.
12:06 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_04]: But this idea that the, the pastor, the ministry leader can just handle it.
12:12 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_04]: without referring it out.
12:13 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So what would you say to folks, especially in leadership positions, who, you know, someone's coming to them with obvious trauma, where do they know?
12:21 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, where that cutoff point is where, oh, this is beyond my expertise.
12:25 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_04]: I need to refer this out to a licensed professional.
12:30 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's one of those questions that's very contextual, right?
12:34 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Like who is the person in front of you and what are they facing?
12:38 --> 12:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would always suggest, let's air on the side of caution, right?
12:42 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there is great maturity in knowing your limitations.
12:47 --> 13:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And so instead of looking at, hey, maybe I can't handle this traumatic event and I should refer them out instead of seeing that as as a failure or I'm not equipped, I would suggest that that's actually kind of a superpower, right?
13:03 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I recognize this and I know who I am and I know what I'm capable of and I care about this person so much.
13:10 --> 13:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I want them to receive the best care that they can get and so I'm going to refer them out.
13:14 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But some of the kind of the hallmarks of trauma that we would see repetition is key.
13:20 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, is this person going back to the story over and over again, because they're trying to make sense of it and whatever conversation we have, it's still circling back that to me as a mental health professional would signal some trauma are we seeing marked behavioral changes.
13:38 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
13:39 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that could look like depression.
13:41 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It could look like flashbacks.
13:43 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It could look like lack of sleep and exhaustion.
13:46 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_00]: What are we seeing that's different about this person?
13:50 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Are we are we observing panic attacks or that hyper vigilance.
13:54 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't relax.
13:55 --> 13:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't rest.
13:57 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_00]: because my body is still in that survival mode.
14:00 --> 14:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, things like that would be kind of immediate red flags to say, hey, I bet I could help this person find someone who is skilled and trained in trauma to walk with them through this.
14:14 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's that's so important.
14:16 --> 14:32 [SPEAKER_04]: And the next couple of questions I want to ask are what I think are equally as important, especially in light of trying to be a place that's a safe, but be trauma informed in the sense that I've seen way too many instances of re-traumatizing the individual.
14:33 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_04]: So in an effort to try to avoid that, you know, unfortunately I've seen I've heard way too many horse stories about
14:40 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I think we're well-meaning but didn't realize that they were just making it arguably worse.
14:46 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And so your book explicitly critiques, you know, we talked about platitudes earlier, what are the most common Christian phrases that function like spiritual bypass?
14:55 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_04]: And what would you replace them with?
14:58 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, double whammy question.
15:01 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_00]: want to I want to move a little bit carefully because I tend to get real soap boxy on this one because like you I've seen it I've also walked through it and I know how devastating it is and so I want to be I want to be cautious right and also honest and so some of those key phrases right the first one the pops to mine is let go and let God and the other one is it's not so much
15:31 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: and this idea of if you would just forgive then everything will be fine and what I have seen is we put a much greater burden on a victim or a survivor to forgive then we put on a perpetrator to repent and that is
15:52 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_00]: wildly unfair, right, to say, you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to forgive.
16:00 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you are using to forgive, well, now you're an unforgiveness, and now this is your problem.
16:06 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would suggest, are we investing as much time and as much energy in preaching and teaching genuine repentance as we are forgiveness?
16:21 --> 16:29 [SPEAKER_04]: One thing I want to ask is add on to that question as well as some of the most severe cases that have seen where things were sort of poorly handled.
16:29 --> 16:41 [SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that seems to have been focused on is not only that forgiveness piece you just mentioned, but also sort of like we can handle this in house in sort of what I call God's court versus.
16:41 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, engaging outside counseling, engaging law enforcement and things of that nature, what would you say, what, what, what's some advice that you would give to a church in regards to that sort of thing.
16:53 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So the kind of sassy response I would say to that is put your people, put your people above your brand because, and again, there are some very egregious cases that you and I have apparently both seen.
17:06 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_00]: There have been something that have been in the news, right?
17:09 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And very well platforms and well-known pastors who would say, don't ever go seek therapy, always handle it in the house of God or don't ever seek law enforcement, handle it in the house of God.
17:23 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And my question is always, but why, right?
17:27 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: What are you protecting?
17:29 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And this idea of we need to keep it kind of hush-hush here because again, we don't want the outside world to look at us and have our brand, whether that's a specific church or whether it's just sort of the idea of Christianity in general, we don't want that to be damaged.
17:44 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you speak up, you are going to damage the kingdom of God.
17:51 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Is the kingdom of God so fragile that it can't withstand truth?
17:55 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever.
17:57 --> 18:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so my, again, my kind of short answer to that would be, if you have been called to shepherd God's people, then shepherd his people and not your brand.
18:09 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_04]: could not have said it better myself.
18:11 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_04]: Agreed.
18:14 --> 18:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and one of the reasons I brought that up to is, you know, I'm currently working on the initial phases of a season two for this limited series that I did on a specific church movement and specific, um,
18:27 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_04]: traumatic experience and there are as a result multiple court cases ongoing and multiple different will say regions of the country and so there's a couple that are in California.
18:40 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_04]: There's some a bunch that are in Minnesota and there's one that is in
18:46 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_04]: St. Louis, Missouri, and from a retraumatizing standpoint, you know, and this is where I sort of want to get into the Justice Part of your book as well.
18:53 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_04]: I just, what does Justice look like in that scenario?
18:56 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_04]: And before you answer that, I also want to mention that in this case that the wider organization their defense is is.
19:03 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_04]: not so much disputing the facts as it were of the case.
19:06 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think we're all agreed, you know, based on the the preponderance of evidence that yes, in fact, these these young women and in one case, young man were abused by by staff.
19:18 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_04]: And so their defense instead has been to try to argue what I would call some legal loopholes to try to prevent the case from even being
19:29 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Which I found to be, I will say, shocking, you know, being a church organization.
19:34 --> 19:41 [SPEAKER_04]: And so what would you say to that in terms of from a trauma perspective and retraumatizing and what does that say to the victims?
19:41 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_04]: And then also, you know, talk about your chapter in general like where is the justice?
19:47 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_04]: Because you're pretty blunt in that chapter as well, which I appreciate.
19:50 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_04]: So, so talk about that.
19:52 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_04]: First I think the first part and then sort of justice as a whole.
19:56 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sort of earning my, my trouble maker label, that's okay.
20:01 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I embrace it.
20:01 --> 20:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm okay with it, right?
20:05 --> 20:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So this idea of secondary trauma, right, of re-traumatizing someone.
20:11 --> 20:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it really comes down to this idea of someone who has endured something traumatic, right, who finds themselves in this very vulnerable, very isolating, very confusing place, and they turn to for the purposes of this conversation, right?
20:29 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: They turn to their church,
20:31 --> 20:31 [SPEAKER_00]: for help.
20:31 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I need support.
20:32 --> 20:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I need to understand.
20:34 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I need some guidance here.
20:36 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And what they receive in response is something unhealthy.
20:40 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something dysfunctional.
20:42 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something deeply wounding.
20:45 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what you have created is the secondary trauma that research generally tells us can actually be more debilitating and more painful than the original traumatic event.
20:57 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_00]: because what it's creating is an intentional dismissal and intentional element of perhaps disbelief.
21:06 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's reinforcing this sense of powerlessness, helplessness, not having a voice, not being safe, not having agency in their own life.
21:17 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And this comes in and just reinforces it.
21:20 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that can actually create, not just an additional trauma, but even a greater trauma.
21:26 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's sort of that secondary element, which for pastors church leaders, part of the reason why we need to be trauma-informed and understand the power of those words and the lasting impact and consequences that it can have.
21:40 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_00]: especially on a trauma survivor.
21:42 --> 21:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the question of justice, I mean, justice can be a huge issue for trauma survivors, especially if it is interpersonal trauma.
21:51 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Because as humans, we are raised to expect repair.
21:56 --> 21:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
21:57 --> 22:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all of us who have raised children, if my child goes and swipe something from his friend, what am I going to tell him?
22:05 --> 22:07 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you need to give that back, and you need to say you're sorry.
22:07 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And so from a young age, we are taught the value of making amends and offering an apology.
22:14 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for trauma survivors, imagine what it's like to endure this terrible overwhelming event and no one ever says they're sorry.
22:27 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_00]: and no one ever even acknowledges this wound.
22:31 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It is, again, one of those terrible unfairnesses of trauma that most of the time we are expecting survivors to come up with closure and healing without ever getting an acknowledgement, without ever getting an apology, without ever giving an explanation, let alone ever receiving justice for what they have been through.
22:50 --> 22:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this concept of how can we
22:56 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_00]: and help offer a men's for this person, right?
23:01 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I can't apologize on the behalf of your perpetrator, but I can't tell you that this shouldn't have happened to you.
23:08 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I can acknowledge this wound that you've suffered, and I can tell you, I am so sorry that you have to go through this.
23:15 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And that can even usher a survivor into a place where maybe they're not going to get actual legal justice,
23:24 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_00]: but they can at least begin to receive that acknowledgement and some of that repair that they desperately need.
23:32 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and one of the things you brought up to is this idea of closure to which I've always struggled with, and it reminds me of some of the work by Dr. Pauline Boss, who has written on things likelement as well, and this idea that this notion that there is ever some semblance of closure, when in reality it's no, you just kind of learn to live with that and sort of carry it, but not let it sort of, you know, control your life, so to speak.
24:00 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_04]: But like, you know, when we're talking about things like a somewhat losing a loved one, there is no moment at which you're like, everything's great now.
24:07 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_04]: No, I still miss my mother, dearly, and that will never change.
24:11 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_04]: Does it get a little easier to get through, you know, tomorrow and the day after?
24:16 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
24:16 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_04]: And I find a way to honor her, but, you know, given the opportunity, I would take my mom back on a heartbeat, you know, of course.
24:22 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_04]: So this idea of closure is kind of, you know, is kind of this horizon that we never quite reach, you know.
24:30 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a great way to, oh, sorry.
24:32 --> 24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead.
24:33 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say that's a great way to put it is this idea that there really isn't ever closure to trauma, but what we are able to do is we are able to integrate it into our life story, it becomes part of the story of our life and then there's there's this great emerging research on this concept of post traumatic growth, which is what comes next.
24:57 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_00]: right, what is the legacy that I can choose to create out of this experience?
25:03 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And who knows what it looks like is going to be different for each individual, right?
25:06 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But this idea that this becomes, I can embrace this as awful it is.
25:12 --> 25:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I can embrace this as part of my story and I get to write the next chapter.
25:17 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you said so so beautifully, right?
25:19 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: How can I find ways to honor
25:22 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_00]: This concept of we can make beauty out of ashes, but we get to choose what that looks like.
25:33 --> 25:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
25:34 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well said.
25:35 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_04]: I realize we're getting towards the end of our time here.
25:37 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm trying to pick the perfect question to end on here because I always bring way too many.
25:42 --> 25:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, right.
25:43 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's, let's, let's, well, let me just leave it up to you then.
25:46 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_04]: What?
25:47 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_04]: At the end of the day like when you know in a highly recommend folks go grab a copy of the book um what what is sort of the lasting take away you want people to have from this book what's one hope that you have for people who read it.
26:00 --> 26:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I mean one hope that I would have is that it helps us see.
26:07 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_00]: the power that we have in our presence with others and that we don't have to have all the answers but we do have the opportunity to sit with people and to be with them and to walk with them through some really horrific times.
26:27 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I hope my hope for this book has always been that it introduces a conversation in our churches about trauma and about how we can do a better job of caring for the people that God has brought to us.
26:44 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_00]: that God has entrusted to us.
26:46 --> 26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we prioritize them?
26:48 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we support them better?
26:50 --> 26:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And how can we, as pastors, as church leaders, as believers?
26:55 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we embrace some of the worst situations in life and still reflect the love and the character and the truth and the grace of God?
27:11 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_04]: perfect.
27:11 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_04]: The book is called Comfort in the Ashes Explorations in the Book of Job to support trauma survivors.
27:17 --> 27:24 [SPEAKER_04]: It is out as of January 10th, which means it will be out when this episode air so go grab a copy.
27:24 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_04]: It's available everywhere.
27:26 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_04]: A books are found.
27:26 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Dr. Keiner, thank you so much for spending some time with me today.
27:31 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me, John.
27:32 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_02]: This was awesome.
27:41 --> 27:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Does he know that I'm alive?
27:50 --> 27:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He's got it, even here.
27:55 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But does she care that I doubt does she care that I fear?
28:01 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Something tells me God will survive.
28:12 --> 28:29 [SPEAKER_03]: So take a breath, breathe it in The mystery that is this You never, as we don't know
28:32 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, His face must look like yours Did God kill His kin?
28:58 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
29:04 --> 29:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we made a God, it looks like us, does God know my name?
29:20 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so?
29:28 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Does that mean it's not real?
29:37 --> 29:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that...
29:50 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, her face must look like this.
30:18 --> 30:40 [SPEAKER_02]: A face like a teenager, and I'm at a meal dreaded A rock sent his husband, got sent their children Vays like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone, a Lucy born with an extra croissant
30:40 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Pablo with lakes, he can't move by himself A girl born a Daniel, who now is then well A pillaging Eve, and white guy's name tag If you have a heartbeat, you are the face
31:13 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_03]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
31:38 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face must look, if God has a face