In this episode of The Deconstructionists Podcast, we’re joined by John Dominic Crossan and Michael Okinczyc-Cruz for the first part of a wide-ranging conversation about Jesus, empire, and why historical context matters now more than ever.
As religion, power, and nationalism continue to collide in the United States, this conversation feels remarkably timely — not because it’s reacting to current events, but because it’s rooted deeply in history.
In Part One, we focus on setting the foundation:
- The world of the Roman Empire and how it shaped early Christianity
- Why Jesus must be understood as a first-century Jewish figure under imperial occupation
- What happens when modern readers remove Jesus from his historical context
- Why asking historical questions doesn’t weaken faith — but often deepens it
This episode invites listeners to take the Bible seriously enough to let it challenge modern assumptions about power, violence, and faithfulness.
About Our Guests
John Dominic Crossan is one of the most influential New Testament scholars of the last fifty years. A historian of early Christianity and co-founder of the Jesus Seminar, Crossan has written extensively on the historical Jesus, the Roman Empire, and the political implications of early Christian theology.
Michael Okinczyc-Cruz is a scholar whose work focuses on empire, power, and the intersection of theology, politics, and economic systems. His research explores how religious ideas function in real historical and social contexts — especially under conditions of domination.
Together, they bring historical rigor and moral clarity to questions that remain deeply relevant today.
Featured Works & Links
John Dominic Crossan
- Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
- https://www.harpercollins.com/products/jesus-a-revolutionary-biography-john-dominic-crossan
- The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant
- https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-historical-jesus-john-dominic-crossan
- God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now
- https://www.harpercollins.com/products/god-and-empire-john-dominic-crossan
- How to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christian
- https://www.harpercollins.com/products/how-to-read-the-bible-and-still-be-a-christian-john-dominic-crossan
Michael Okinczyc-Cruz
- The Politics of Discipleship (with John Dominic Crossan)
- https://www.fortresspress.com/store/productgroup/553/The-Politics-of-Discipleship
Special Music Provided by: Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.
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00:00 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_02]: What I mean by that is, capitalism is part of our dominant culture, whiteness, is part of our dominant culture.
00:08 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Individualism is part of our dominant culture, consumerism is part of our dominant culture.
00:15 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_02]: War and patriotism is part of our dominant culture.
00:18 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have all these aspects that represent the dominant culture.
00:22 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_02]: politically, ideologically, economically, militarily.
00:27 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've said, how do we make Christianity essentially affirm all these things that we love?
00:34 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have a Christianity that reflects the dominant culture.
00:39 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And this marriage between Christianity and whiteness and all these images of a white Jesus, which, quite simply is not reflective of a first century Jesus.
00:52 --> 00:55 [SPEAKER_02]: who's Middle Eastern and grew up in this particular part of the world.
01:01 --> 01:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the deconstructionist podcast.
01:03 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host John Williamson, and sorry for the slightly late episode this week.
01:09 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Due to the holiday, I was a little off, and did some fun stuff for Valentine's Day.
01:14 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully you did as well, or singles Appreciation Day, as it might pertain to you.
01:19 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, this is an exciting episode that kind of came about last second, and I'll be back with a little bit of a little bit later,
01:27 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm friends with him now.
01:28 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:28 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I kind of am.
01:30 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But John Dominic Cross, and who's been on the show a couple times before, and is considered one of the foremost New Testament scholars in the world today, approached me about having him on to talk about his latest book that he co-wrote with another author who I will intro here in a second.
01:47 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But it, as always, his work
01:50 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_01]: at least within the last like several books that he's written has felt very, very timely.
01:55 --> 02:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to be that he's just a hair ahead, a step ahead of things as they unfold in the world today.
02:03 --> 02:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And so today,
02:06 --> 02:17 [SPEAKER_01]: This one feels very, very timely, as I mentioned, and as debates over power and nationalism, violence in the role of religion, continue to dominate life here in the United States.
02:17 --> 02:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Many people are asking the same question from very different angles.
02:21 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_01]: What was Christianity actually meant to be and how did it become so closely tied to empire and power?
02:27 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you spent any time wrestling with the historical Jesus, who he was, what he taught, and how his message functioned in the real world of the first century, then you already know the work of John Dominic Cross in, and again, if you've been listening for a while, you may have caught the last couple of interviews I did with him, but
02:43 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know who he is, crossing is one of the most influential New Testament scholars of the last half century.
02:49 --> 03:00 [SPEAKER_01]: He's a historian of early Christianity, a co-founder of the Jesus Seminar, and an author whose work has helped generations of readers take the Bible more seriously, not less.
03:00 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Joining him, I'm going to butcher his middle name, and I apologize in advance.
03:05 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But joining him is Michael O'Kinsuch Cruz.
03:08 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope I got that first part of the hi-finated last name correct, but if I didn't them, Michael, I deeply apologize.
03:15 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I forgot to ask you before we got off, but anyway.
03:18 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, his scholarship focuses on empire power and how religious ideas actually operate inside political and economic systems together, they've written a book that feels uncannily timely, like I said, not because it's reacting to current events, but because it's crowded in history and they actually started it before current events.
03:37 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And so,
03:38 --> 03:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In this first part of our conversation, we lay the foundation, we talk about why historical context matters so much when reading the Bible, how the Roman Empire shaped the world of Jesus, what's lost when Jesus' message is stripped of its political and economic meaning, and why asking historical questions isn't a threat to faith, but often a path toward greater honesty.
03:59 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't a conversation about modern politics disguised as theology, it's about understanding the ancient world clearly enough to recognize when history is repeating itself.
04:09 --> 04:19 [SPEAKER_01]: This is part one, my interview, with John Crosson and Michael Cruz.
04:22 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, welcome to the deconstructors podcast.
04:25 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get a chance to do this often, but I have more than one guest in the studio with me today.
04:30 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_01]: One returning guest, who's a favorite of the podcast.
04:34 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Dom, welcome back to the pod, and welcome for the first time, Michael.
04:39 --> 04:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, John.
04:39 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful to be with you and Dom.
04:41 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you very much.
04:43 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
04:44 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So Michael, we'll start with you since folks are, you know, this is your first time on the podcast.
04:48 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So tell folks a little bit about your background and faith rooted community organizing and how that works shaped the way that you read the Gospels.
04:58 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, John.
04:58 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Happy to.
05:00 --> 05:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So my background is I've been a faith-based community organizer now for approximately 15 years.
05:07 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I got my start in California.
05:10 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_02]: doing organizing in the Bay Area, and for about five years I spent in Western New York in Buffalo in our Falls.
05:19 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And now I live in Chicago, Illinois, with my wife.
05:24 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And I love it here.
05:26 --> 05:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I work with an organization called the Coalition for Spiritual and Public Leadership by Service Executive Director, and we are a grassroots community
05:39 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_02]: and to do so in a way that not only nurtures their civic capacities, their public leadership qualities, but also their spiritual and their theological formation.
05:50 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And in addition to that, I am a adjunct associate professor at the Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola University of Chicago where I teach theology and Christian ethics and various courses over the course of the year.
06:05 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
06:06 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I have strong roots from the Chicago area.
06:09 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_01]: My dad is originally from Chicago.
06:11 --> 06:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So big fan of the city.
06:13 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a great city.
06:14 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So talk about, I think before we jump into the book, you know, I have to ask a question, what brought the two of you together?
06:21 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately what inspired you guys to write this type of book together?
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd like you to start Michael's series.
06:31 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: The first move was from you and I can talk
06:36 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
06:37 --> 06:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Happy to share that story, John.
06:39 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_02]: What a great story.
06:41 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So back in 2024, my colleague at Joanna, who's also a co-founder of the Coalition for Spiritual and Public Leadership.
06:53 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_02]: had this idea of bringing down to our major organizational event, which we host every year, we call it our annual Congress, our Congress for Spiritual and Public Leadership.
07:04 --> 07:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a three-day gathering where we convene our members from across not only the Chicago region, but the state of Illinois and parts of the Midwest for three days of
07:18 --> 07:35 [SPEAKER_02]: relationship building, strategic planning, a deep spiritual and theological formation, and the opportunity to really discern collectively our work in the region on various social, economic, environmental.
07:35 --> 07:36 [SPEAKER_02]: and racial justice issues.
07:36 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And so typically, this three-day convening brings together anywhere from 150 to 300 people from the across the region, from parishes, churches, community organizations, unions, universities,
07:52 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_02]: and so we had thought that Dom would be a fabulous speaker and for years we've utilized Dom's works on the historical Jesus as part of our our grassroots theological formation process really reflecting with our members at the grassroots level on the historical Jesus and how the historical Jesus relates to help us relate to many of the contemporary
08:20 --> 08:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we said, what a dream would it be to bring Dom, to invite Dom to offer a three-part lecture series.
08:28 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And so Dom accepted the invitation and joined us for 2024 Congress at Lviv,
08:38 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And we just had an incredible time with Dom.
08:41 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Our members loved Dom.
08:43 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_02]: They were so grateful for his lectures.
08:46 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And from that opportunity, from that gathering, Dom, and I continued the conversation, I had spoken with my colleagues with Joanne and others about the idea of co-authoring up with Dom.
08:59 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Based on the experiences that we had in terms of presenting the historical Jesus
09:08 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And to create a book together that was also accessible for everyday people, from churches and organizations that this would be a book that would be for folks who are deeply passionate about their faith as Christians and who care deeply about justice and society.
09:26 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what we set out to do, except at the invitation, love the idea, which I'm very thankful for and we spent just about a year and a half together working on this book.
09:36 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I want to underline that.
09:40 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, after 2020, not at my age, I decided flying takes much more energy than this work, so I'd be doing Zoom with everywhere Zoom, a re-stream, or some of the else.
09:51 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_00]: When I got this invitation, I looked at these people.
09:55 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know you existed to be honest with you, but I just looked at who they were, and okay, I'm going.
10:02 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going.
10:03 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not something I did do a visual lectures that is a show and tell show and tell is that you.
10:10 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So I could have done it.
10:11 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I could have done it from here like we're doing it, but no, I wanted to do this.
10:17 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_00]: it's so important because we don't have books that are written by someone who's an expert on the anime and an expert on both parts.
10:26 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I can write it by the historical jesus, I'd be doing it since 1973, I think I'll get it right by now.
10:34 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_00]: But this book does contain, as of now, my most succinct up to date on the historical Jesus.
10:41 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's one part of it.
10:42 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's there.
10:43 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But the other part of it, and honestly, it's the more important part.
10:47 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_00]: It really is, I'm not just being nice to Michael.
10:50 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It's much more important because that stuff's been there.
10:54 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been talking about the historical Jesus now for a couple of hundred years.
10:58 --> 11:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But the idea that this becomes the actual basis and empowerment.
11:04 --> 11:06 [SPEAKER_00]: That was the idea that caught me.
11:07 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm extremely grateful to Johan and Michael for that.
11:11 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And working with Michael for the book, we wrote it together.
11:15 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't quite go in and see what I got the first half.
11:18 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Our Michael did the first half, I did the second, I did this chat.
11:21 --> 11:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, it was totally integrative.
11:23 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: She went to the game, which might be her to work it out.
11:28 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's an integrated book.
11:31 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's impressive, I always am completely blown away by folks who can do that.
11:37 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a hard enough time being happy with what I write.
11:41 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: much else having somebody else come in and sort of interweave their thoughts into itself.
11:45 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations on that piece.
11:47 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Did either of you have any idea because I would I would wager to guess that the current climate we find ourselves in is very obviously very different from when you guys, you know, first conceived of the book and even started probably initially drafting through it.
12:01 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have any idea how sort of
12:05 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_01]: would be even more so than maybe you thought at the beginning, but even more timely based on what we're witnessing in, at least in the United States right now.
12:13 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Michael, you're on the street.
12:15 --> 12:17 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's a great question, John.
12:17 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I think in speaking with Dom and the conversations that we had, we certainly knew that this book
12:23 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_02]: would resonate for a whole multitude of reasons.
12:26 --> 12:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I think now, particularly in the United States, as we face the Trump presidency, which presents profound challenges, socially, economically, politically, globally, environmentally.
12:39 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this moment is quite distinct in its challenges, but I think something fundamental exists in this world, order that we live in, which is that it's very much a corporate-driven,
12:51 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_02]: that we are our societies, our communities, particularly here in the United States are deeply shaped by individual, individualized capitalism, unfettered capitalism, vast income inequality, rapidly destabilizing global.
13:11 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_02]: environment politically, environmentally, economically, whether we'd like to admit to or not, after Trump departs the White House.
13:22 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_02]: However, that may be, we will still be living with many of the fundamental issues.
13:28 --> 13:36 [SPEAKER_02]: in the society that preceded Trump and that in many ways set established a very fertile ground for Trump to rise.
13:36 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so in so many ways this book does feel profoundly timely for all the reasons that we're facing currently in this country right now.
13:46 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But many of these issues are going to continue to persist unless we address the fundamental underlying causes of vast inequality
13:55 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_02]: marginalization, corporate colonialism, the things that continue to produce fast suffering for millions of millions of people across our planet today.
14:08 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And that I think is the core thing.
14:11 --> 14:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Can any community, small or large sustain
14:24 --> 14:25 [SPEAKER_00]: a community is gone.
14:26 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we blame something else, of course.
14:28 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I have been working consistently about the Roman Empire in a great, big parable, like Jesus told Paris about the American Empire.
14:39 --> 14:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I've never just been talked about the Roman Empire wasn't the first century foreign.
14:44 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been aware of it, but something has happened.
14:47 --> 14:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I could write a book about
14:49 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_00]: God and Empire, but just all of Empire means kind of war is a broad and peace at home.
14:54 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the rest of it for Empire.
14:56 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Roman, it was packed for a month.
14:58 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It was on the Danube and the Rhine Hill, all the hell breaking news.
15:02 --> 15:07 [SPEAKER_00]: But now I'm looking at a situation where you seem to talk at least about peace abroad.
15:07 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I may be even getting an Nobel Prize for it, but you've war in the streets of home.
15:13 --> 15:17 [SPEAKER_00]: However, invented that type of an Empire.
15:17 --> 15:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So what are we dealing with?
15:20 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even use the Roman Empire.
15:21 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_00]: They would never have tolerated peace than the Atlas Mountains, but the Rippen-Roma part with the legions.
15:27 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't have lasted.
15:29 --> 15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So, my model of the Roman Empire for the American Empire says, Morgan anymore.
15:38 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a worse situation than I ever imagined.
15:42 --> 15:45 [SPEAKER_00]: War on the streets of Chicago, war on the streets of Minneapolis.
15:47 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know that anyone saw this coming to be honest, and I think, you know, we had you on for talk about your last book, you know, where, you know, I've said for years from a historical standpoint, I think, you know, comparing us to the Roman Empire as, you know, America, the next great empire, you know, eventually we all, all great empire seemed
16:17 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_01]: get too comfortable and and get too lazy or whatever you want to call it and eventually it's not typically an outside invader so much as it is internal collapse that occurs and it seems like unless we course correct then that's the way we're headed as well just like all the previous massive empires of history it might look a little different but essentially
16:46 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The foreign enemies who are probably just watching us, you know, implode.
16:50 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't really have to do a whole lot.
16:52 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems.
16:56 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, Haris said that about the Roman Empire around the year, about 40 BCE.
17:02 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, nobody on earth could conquer us.
17:06 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_00]: We're destroying ourselves.
17:09 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he said, this marvelous sentence, change but the name and the tales told of you.
17:14 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, why laugh at us talking to the enemy?
17:20 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Change but the name and the tales told of you.
17:22 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, that was, that was a good prophecy for two sashing tears.
17:28 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:28 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was.
17:29 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: In the book, you insist that Jesus was not just spiritually radical, but politically and economically dangerous.
17:35 --> 17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: When you say the, quote, revolutionary Jesus, what do you think modern Christians most misunderstand or resist about that particular claim?
17:44 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll start with down on that one.
17:49 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if I can sever that one, you could see about the way they don't know what to do it.
17:54 --> 17:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, almost not quite 2000 years to be fair.
17:58 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: A Christianity doesn't know what to do with the fact that Jesus was executed.
18:02 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me use the shocking terms.
18:04 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Jesus might have been it for the first century.
18:08 --> 18:09 [SPEAKER_00]: executed for us.
18:09 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus was executed legally, publicly, or facially.
18:14 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And not really because Pilah was having a bad hair day or something.
18:18 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_00]: He was executed.
18:19 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And from the Roman point of view, it was actually just condemnation.
18:24 --> 18:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Had Pilah rounded up all his followers, that would have been wrong.
18:28 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That would have meant it were violent.
18:29 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you do.
18:31 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And you got a violent group yet, crucified them all in a nice row.
18:34 --> 18:37 [SPEAKER_00]: When you crucified the leader, Rome is telling us,
18:37 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: by it's civil law, don't you guys do this again?
18:42 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be back in a couple of years for your next leader.
18:45 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Get the message, we crucified the leader.
18:48 --> 18:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So if I only had that from Rome, I would understand.
18:51 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_00]: From their point of view, Jesus is a serious revolutionary, but he's not a violent.
18:58 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_00]: How could you be?
18:58 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he's a nonviolent revolutionary.
19:01 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So by their law, what they call, he disturbs the people.
19:07 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_00]: He creates a turmoil among the people.
19:11 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want the definition of that role, that's the role of in civil law, by the way.
19:14 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Did never bother with it.
19:16 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: With, you know, the governors have the sword.
19:19 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: If you come at me or the sword, I kill you.
19:22 --> 19:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't hold you in the court.
19:23 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you're out there and you're telling the people, maybe they shouldn't be doing this, or they shouldn't be doing that, or maybe we shouldn't, that's nonviolent revolution.
19:34 --> 19:37 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just, you know, criticism.
19:37 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not your disturbing the peace of the people.
19:40 --> 19:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That enrollment technical term.
19:42 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what Jesus was doing.
19:45 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He was not doing revolution.
19:48 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: In the Arab sense, but he was doing revolution.
19:51 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the only honest term for it.
19:53 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't just criticizing.
19:55 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you guys should be nicer.
19:57 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It was basically saying this is wrong.
19:59 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And you see, well, how do you know it's wrong?
20:01 --> 20:03 [SPEAKER_00]: God says so.
20:04 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Caesar is God.
20:05 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So are we dealing with two gods here?
20:09 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're really into revolution.
20:13 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Two whole authority structures, two whole divisions of everything.
20:17 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know any other term for it, but a non-violent revolutionary.
20:23 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_00]: That's his program.
20:26 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And Michael, I think the next question, philosophically from what now was just saying, at you argue in the book that Jesus organized a nonviolent movement, not merely a set of beliefs, what's the difference between believing in Jesus and following Jesus as you understand it?
20:43 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, two great Christian thinkers, how a Thurman and Father Richard Roar, how a Thurman was a profound religious linker, Christian mystic, who had an indelible impact on Martin Luther King Jr.'s life.
21:02 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_02]: helped to mentor Dr. King and that Father Richard Rohr, who's in a contemporary sense, very relevant to a Christian dialogue in thought today, have both respectively talked about the distinction between following Jesus and worshiping Jesus.
21:17 --> 21:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And following Jesus is a much more profoundly challenging task for Christians to embrace and pursue.
21:26 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in the book, we talk about the commercialization and the profound transformation of the Sea of Galilee into Lake Tiberius.
21:38 --> 21:43 [SPEAKER_02]: and the rapid commercialization of Lake Tiberis produced vast suffering.
21:44 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, we even quoted sitting bull in the first chapter to begin the first chapter, to reflect on the coral areas, the connections between U.S. colonialism,
21:56 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: and the domination of Native American indigenous populations.
22:03 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_02]: It just wasn't ideological and psychological domination.
22:07 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_02]: It was territorial, so occupying the lands, ceasing all of the resources, essentially extracting every resource that the U.S. government and the U.S. empire could from Native American
22:22 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_02]: communities.
22:23 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And we often don't think of Jesus and his people as being a colonized people.
22:29 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_02]: But if we think about Lake Tiberius and all that was happening there, the suffering that was being produced by the Roman Empire to squeeze economically as much as they could out of the lake and out of its people,
22:46 --> 22:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It begs a question, why was Jesus there?
22:49 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Why did Jesus intentionally, as Dham's scholarship has shown over the years, intentionally choose to root His ministry?
22:58 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_02]: along the shores of Lake Tiberius during that time.
23:01 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Why go to where the action was if not to speak about the suffering and the marginalization and the exploitation of the people.
23:10 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's profound connections that we can make because many millions of people today across the globe are being economically pinched and exploited by corporations and governments
23:24 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_02]: their work, their labor is not producing the type of human flourishing and economic stability that a full-day's work deserves.
23:35 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, we see many coral areas here that we can draw on, you know, one powerful image that we lift up in this book is the image of the of the sunken boat that was later excavated.
23:50 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And perhaps down you could talk about this
23:55 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_02]: But oftentimes, if we go and, you know, home depost today have become a site of profound pain because of the number of workers, immigrant workers who often visit home depost sites on a daily basis as daily laborers to wait for work, well, in many cases either they don't have a vehicle or the truck that they're driving is peace together.
24:18 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_02]: by multiple parts, you know, they might have a trunk or the back of the bed of the truck is blue.
24:25 --> 24:31 [SPEAKER_02]: But the body of the truck is white or maybe the front bumper is red.
24:32 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's multiple parts that they've had to patch together in order to keep this truck running every day.
24:38 --> 24:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the truck today is a symbol of the economic squeeze, economic precariousness,
24:45 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_02]: by which so many people live their lives.
24:48 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, every day is a new day and every day.
24:50 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_02]: These workers are waking up praying that their truck turns on in the morning because it's really the only means to an end that day economically.
25:00 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And the same was true for many of these fishing villages.
25:04 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they were desperate to keep their boat in the water and were cobbling together.
25:08 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, every piece of wood they could find.
25:12 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_02]: to keep the boat afloat.
25:13 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And this desperate boat, as you could see, was finally, you know, it finally just fell to the bottom of the sea.
25:21 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_02]: It could not, it could no longer be patched together as there's so much wear and tear.
25:28 --> 25:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a marvelous symbol, that's why both of us are using a virtual background, which is a full image by the Hungarian archaeological artist, Belage, below of 100 wood of look like.
25:44 --> 25:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you start with history, you can ask questions without guessing psychology.
25:49 --> 25:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Why did Jesus go for features?
25:51 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_00]: When maybe he liked features?
25:52 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but you can't answer.
25:54 --> 26:07 [SPEAKER_00]: If you try and imagine, as Michael just said, what happens when the lake of Galilee, which you make you think that Galilee owns it, becomes the lake of type areas, which is a city on the lake.
26:07 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_00]: That could just be, you know, change the names.
26:10 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_00]: could just be a different name, like the Sea of America, the Sea of Mexico, I forgot.
26:16 --> 26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:18 --> 26:35 [SPEAKER_00]: The Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of, you know, it could just be a net, but we recognize, I think, that that tiny change, which could just be, you know, I couldn't even, I forget it, soon as I hear it, but it's a sign of the top of something far more deeply,
26:36 --> 26:36 [SPEAKER_00]: dangerous.
26:37 --> 26:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's going on here.
26:39 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So reading the history is not just oh, we're more history, dates.
26:44 --> 26:52 [SPEAKER_00]: No, if you want to understand how Jesus got traction, why he went to the shore because Martin knew the king went to the bridge.
26:53 --> 26:56 [SPEAKER_00]: No, he didn't go to the bridge because he liked the view.
26:56 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where the action was.
26:58 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus is on the northwest, quieted of the Sea of Galilee, the 20s under Antipus, and the program is the change to comment.
27:07 --> 27:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Comments, that's the word we think of, you know, the Cambridge Common is the Boston Commons land.
27:12 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Or if you want Robin Hood and Sherwood forest, see, you can't, thank you.
27:16 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Could you have a lake?
27:17 --> 27:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Comments turned into a lake.
27:19 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a course you could.
27:20 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a part of the economy stupid.
27:22 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course you could.
27:25 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what Andy presses up to, to get it with the agrarian economy of Rome.
27:30 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So, Jesus goes when the action is, there's a huge model there.
27:35 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_00]: When you have a tradition, which could be circulating around for 700 years among the prophets, or then you get traction.
27:45 --> 27:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Watch for the traction.
27:47 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the traction that's going to make the difference.
27:55 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Revolutionary stories are often buried or sugar-coded by powerful institutions, which I suppose is another way of saying that the victors are the ones who write the history, right?
28:05 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: The age-old saying, who benefits today from a non-revolutionary version of Jesus?
28:11 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll start to start with you down.
28:16 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you going to start with Mike and John, did you say?
28:25 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, you'd have to ask, what does Jesus stand for?
28:28 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing I'm sorry, you have to get into your history business.
28:31 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he wanted to be the Roman emperor, something like that, something really weird.
28:35 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to ask, what's his program?
28:37 --> 28:38 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first thing.
28:39 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_00]: If you imagine Jesus running for office, Jesus Christ and Caesar are running to be president, let's say.
28:46 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what's your program?
28:48 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_00]: What's your platform?
28:50 --> 28:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And do you kind of embody your platform?
28:54 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Like Caesar Augustus claims to body peace because he killed Mark and the interior part for, okay, that's one way to get peace.
29:02 --> 29:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Jesus, we have the packs of Ramana, how do you get peace?
29:07 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we got it already in a good open minded Roman would say, we got it.
29:12 --> 29:14 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you give us what we got already?
29:14 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Peace.
29:17 --> 29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus sort of said, if I can use my language, you guys don't have peace, you got low.
29:23 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_00]: You think a law is peace, and if you're living in a law, I came to this country myself in 1951.
29:28 --> 29:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very good time to come to this country.
29:31 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a law, it's not peace.
29:34 --> 29:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus says to put it terribly simply, Jesus said, you get peace to nonviolent distributive justice.
29:43 --> 29:46 [SPEAKER_00]: When everyone gets a fair share, I know, not everyone getting the same.
29:46 --> 29:48 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no such thing.
29:48 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone gets a fair share and the vulnerabilities, the vulnerabilities, especially with us an orphans, because they don't have a patriarchy of protection, resin aliens, because they don't have a tribal protection.
30:00 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the poor,
30:04 --> 30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Those are the four big categories.
30:06 --> 30:08 [SPEAKER_00]: They'll get hurt since use.
30:09 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_00]: So in one sense, that's the program and it's embodied in Jesus.
30:14 --> 30:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And the honest first century question should be for us looking at the first century for we even get to the 21st.
30:21 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: What's how does Caesar bring peace and does it work?
30:26 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Long haul, and how does Christ bring peace and has it ever been attempted?
30:31 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Long haul.
30:32 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's at least the clash at the court of the book, the first century.
30:38 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Michael, and I definitely want to get your thoughts on a question as well.
30:43 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_02]: What comes to mind, John, when I think about this question is how Christianity and how Jesus has been used as a cudgel to basically mask or veil the real sinister intentions of empires and governments to pursue very extractive, manipulative ends.
31:04 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I think of in the United States manifest destiny, you know, this belief that
31:10 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_02]: the American Empire was somehow ordained by God to continue its expansion.
31:17 --> 31:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of the human suffering, the genocide, the exploitation, the destruction of land and creatures that manifest destiny inevitably
31:32 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_02]: led to.
31:33 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's just one example.
31:35 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got the example of the Spanish Empire, you know, colonizing parts of South America, Mexico, you know, really seeking the blessing of the church in doing so.
31:49 --> 31:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So throughout history, we've seen empires and governments who profess to be Christian or Catholic,
31:56 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_02]: pursue a parent and the name of Christ and the name of Jesus and the name of Christianity.
32:03 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And so religion has often been used to put a veil over exploitative ends, Everest, greed, war, destruction, really in the name of religion and Christianity.
32:20 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have to be always careful and mindful about how religion is being used to manipulate
32:26 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think as well about the fact that the story, the real story of Jesus' program, as Dhamma saying, and message, what did the kingdom of God, what did the reign of God mean to a first century audience who are accustomed to Caesar Augustus as being
32:55 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a clash of narratives, it was a clash of story.
33:01 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a clash that had profound theological but political and economic implications.
33:17 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_02]: We seem to forget that the telling of the Passover story within the first century context here was a profoundly radical act.
33:27 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's what you talk about in this book that the celebration of Passover is the celebration of God's
33:35 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_02]: accompanying the Jewish people in their exodus from each exchange bondage in slavery and in telling the story, the profound and painful irony is that, here they are all over again, in bondage, oppressed, exploited, colonized by the Roman Empire.
33:53 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's an inherent tension, there's an inherent danger in the telling of the story which led to many, many uprisings throughout history.
34:02 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And the Romans understood this, so they would send many, many troops, legions to quail any potential outbreak of violence or insurrection or opposition to Roman rule.
34:16 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the stories matter greatly.
34:19 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_02]: In terms of it's biring people to believe in an alternative reality that goes outside our imperialistic reality.
34:28 --> 34:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And we need to tell these stories.
34:30 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_02]: We need to tell the story of a revolutionary Jesus.
34:34 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: particularly right now, while, you know, white Christian nationalism has monopolized a great amount of power within the church and has consolidated itself and it's lent its power to this agenda that is anti-immigrant, this poor war that is highly imperialistic, that is causing a great deal of pain and destruction in our world.
35:01 --> 35:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we see history in many ways repeating it with
35:04 --> 35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: The allegiance between church leaders and political leaders who have cruel and ambitious goals in mind for their program in their agenda.
35:33 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_04]: He's gone, even here, but as she carried it, I don't, as she carried it, I feel something
36:09 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, His face must look like your face.
36:36 --> 36:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Did God kill his kin?
36:42 --> 36:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
36:47 --> 37:03 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we
37:03 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_04]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so does that mean?
37:28 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not real.
37:28 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_03]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that
37:33 --> 37:51 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, her face must look like you're in love.
38:02 --> 38:23 [SPEAKER_04]: A face like a teenager, and I'm at a meal dreaded A rock, sand, and his husband, God send their children Vays like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone, a Lucy born with an extra croissant
38:24 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Powerful with legs, he can't move by himself A girl born and a Daniel, who now is then now A pillaging Eve and white guy's name tile If you have a heartbeat, you are the fan.
38:52 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_03]: You take a breath, breathing, a mystery that is there.
39:22 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_04]: If God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, if God has a face, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must look, the face must