In this episode, we continue our conversation with Army Chaplain Lieutenant Colonel Kerstin Hedlund. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we recommend starting there for context.
Kerstin has spent years serving alongside soldiers in moments of grief, trauma, transition, and deep personal struggle. Her work isn’t about offering easy answers. It’s about presence, listening, and holding space for real human complexity.
This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with suffering, loss, or disillusionment. It’s also for those who care deeply about someone who has served.
Kerstin’s insight offers a grounded and deeply humane perspective on what it means to stay present with one another through the hardest parts of life.
Resources & Further Reading
If you’d like to explore more about topics mentioned in this episode:
- “Soul Repair: Recovering from Moral Injury After War” – Rita Nakashima Brock & Gabriella Lettini
- The Moral Injury Project – Syracuse University
- VA National Center for PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.gov
- Military Chaplaincy Overview: https://www.goarmy.com/chaplain
Connect with Us
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- Instagram: @deconstructionistspodcast
- X (Twitter): @deconstructcast
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00:00 --> 00:00 [UNKNOWN]: You
00:11 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the deconstruction as podcast on your host John Williamson and today we're continuing our conversation with Army Chaplain, Lieutenant Colonel, Kristen Headland.
00:21 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to Part 1, you'll remember that Kristen carries a rare perspective.
00:25 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Someone who has served alongside soldiers in places of deep stress, trauma and sacrifice while holding space for their spiritual and emotional lives.
00:34 --> 00:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And Part 2, we go even further into what it means to show up for people and their most vulnerable moments.
00:40 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_00]: This is in the conversation about easy answers, it's a conversation about presence, about listening, and about what it means to be human with other humans and moments where words often fail.
00:51 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get into it with part two of my interview with Army Chaplain,
01:02 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk a little bit about, obviously, you know, you serve during a time of war where we were in a couple different countries.
01:08 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it taught you and what have you seen in regards to human resilience and meaning making through your work?
01:15 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot about human resilience and finding maybe a purpose within a purpose whether or not one believes in the operation that he or she is engaged in, how do I find a purpose within a person, how do I,
01:46 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_03]: When I was in, I racked during the time of withdrawal.
01:49 --> 01:58 [SPEAKER_03]: We were finding that the base on which I was primarily serving was getting mordered by some of the surrounding villagers a lot more heavily.
01:58 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And we had really gained good relations with the local community.
02:02 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, why are we getting mordered now more heavily as we're withdrawing?
02:07 --> 02:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And what we found out was,
02:09 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_03]: that obviously this great influx of of service members is boosting the local economy and these people who had been used to having so many people in the area for decades.
02:21 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Now there's this great withdrawal and what does that mean for them?
02:24 --> 02:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And how do we tell you that I love you?
02:26 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm telling you that I love you by throwing a mortar at you because this is the only way that I can
02:32 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_03]: see to get you to stay from from that perspective.
02:36 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And so again, kind of, there were other examples too, but I'm going to throw a mortar at you because I like your presence.
02:44 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_03]: That might not be the way that other people.
02:47 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_03]: other people understand it.
02:50 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So again, getting to know the story within the story, we also had a lot of people that we called third country nationals and Cam Simpson, I think he's a British author, he wrote in Chicago wrote a book, it was called The Girl From Catman Do.
03:03 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like I met a lot of
03:05 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_03]: people who are sort of representative of this girl from Kathmandu, people from countries that were considered two third world countries who were coming into theater not necessarily thinking that this is where they were going to go almost human traffic in a way by private companies and the resilience that they had in the faith that they had in very helpless and hopeless
03:33 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_03]: about human resilience, about overcoming obstacles, but also about persistence and needing to get hidden stories out for the lives of human brothers and sisters across the globe who need it.
03:45 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to offer an opportunity for you to kind of share some of your some of the stories and experiences that were most profound to you, but one of the things I want to make sure I ask you before we get into that.
03:57 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That piece and you mentioned the diversity and obviously we have a very diverse group of in the military all different races and religions and non religion and and everything in between as, you know, and again I'm a proud Lutheran boy myself and I was still people like you know my
04:22 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_00]: sort of hearing about the concepts of heaven and hell and, you know, stuff, but that was never at the forefront.
04:28 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_00]: There's always something like, hey, it's somewhere back here.
04:31 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_00]: It was more, more at the forefront, I felt, this is my personal experience grant as a child and movie thron church in the son of a, you'll see a movie thron pastor.
04:41 --> 04:47 [SPEAKER_00]: It was very much sort of encompassed in that old him, they will know we are Christians by our love.
04:47 --> 04:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'd like to think that I influenced Doug to make that song happen a couple weeks ago in church, but because I told him the same thing.
04:54 --> 04:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, that's to me when people ask, what does it mean to be an ELC-eluvian?
04:58 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, to me, that's it, man.
05:00 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_00]: It's you walk through life, leading with your heart, and live out the gospels, and the love of Jesus, and that's the way that we
05:11 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, interact with others and share that good news is just through our actions is just being a good human being And not pushing, you know, trying to convert everybody and scare the shit out of them.
05:24 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not, it's not our style.
05:26 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So having said that
05:27 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, as a as a Lutheran chaplain, you know, I would imagine that your approach is maybe a little different than others that you kind of hit it at that before, being surrounded by just sheer amount of diversity, how does that sort of like change your approach, I guess, when you're sort of interacting with such a broad array spectrum of people.
05:46 --> 05:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think, again, getting to know where other chaplains are coming from and where soldiers are coming from kind of knowing the context.
05:53 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know that, you know, I'd have to think more about this that being with a broad array of people, you know, necessarily changes my approach even within the chaplain court despite our religious tradition.
06:04 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_03]: All of us are kind of
06:05 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_03]: taught about the chaplain is almost exactly what you were talking about, just this ministry of presence and our actions for our soldiers are caring for our soldiers regardless of what their faith background may or may not may or may not be and being there in the trying to go to some of the darkest places with them so that they know that they're not alone
06:34 --> 06:48 [SPEAKER_03]: and having said that knowing my chaplains to my right and left also is super helpful because there may be soldiers who don't like having a female clergy person and I need to honor that.
06:48 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I can refer those soldiers to somebody else that I know, who from whom they can receive the care that they feel that they need.
06:58 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's part, I guess that's part of my approach and the approach of many chaplains is,
07:02 --> 07:09 [SPEAKER_03]: to know what from whom do our soldiers feel comfortable receiving care and if it's not from me who would be a good point of contact for them.
07:10 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
07:11 --> 07:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And kind of this kind of leads to my next question, which is, you know, I think I mentioned maybe I didn't, maybe it was before we started recording, but my dad, you know, also you'll see a leaf from pastor, but was a hospital chaplain for a good stint.
07:24 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, during his career.
07:26 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think about like his work is a hospital chaplain.
07:29 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember thinking once I'm really good friend of mine from high school.
07:32 --> 07:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We had just moved to another city about an hour and a half away.
07:36 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And uh, I get a call when it says, hey, your friend Jason's at the hospital here.
07:40 --> 07:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what is he doing here?
07:41 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an hour and a half away from where we grew up.
07:43 --> 07:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
07:44 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And come to find out it was this awful situation where I hit an older cousin who was probably a couple decades older, who had been in this terrible motorcycle accident.
07:53 --> 08:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was the first time I got to see my dad in action as a chaplain, you know, and it was just an awful, just the worst situation you can possibly imagine.
08:01 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_00]: This guy's parents were there, you know, obviously Jason and his family were there.
08:04 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: The cousins of this gentleman's girlfriend was there, and the parents had just lost their
08:12 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And now, you know, that my dad and this and the surgeon had to come out and tell them they lost their son as well.
08:19 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And just to hear, you know, that the
08:21 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a different level of crying.
08:24 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever heard somebody who's lost the love of their life, it's awful.
08:28 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_00]: It's awful, I've heard myself before when my mom passed away from cancer, you know, and it's just not something you ever want to experience.
08:35 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_00]: But sitting there, I remember thinking, how does my dad do this?
08:39 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Like how?
08:40 --> 08:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And now he's got to go talk to him about organ donation.
08:42 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what?
08:43 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no.
08:44 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I hear these stories, and I think, man, I mean, I could never do that job.
08:48 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I just couldn't.
08:49 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And so then you think about sort of that role and then you think about the care that pastors have to give on a regular basis.
08:55 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_00]: But then you think about all that and you're like, man, their worst day is nothing compared to potentially what an army chaplain has to go through where you're encountering people who's friend was just shot in front of them or, or, you know, a mortar went off or, you know, at IUD or something and they're seeing just next level.
09:13 --> 09:16 [SPEAKER_00]: uh, you know, in terms of things that are just horrifying.
09:17 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so not only do you as a military chaplain have to deal with the normal stuff, the day-to-day stuff, but you're having to deal with this whole level as well.
09:25 --> 09:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as a military chaplain, what would you say you would want?
09:30 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: civilian faith communities to understand about military life and spirituality?
09:34 --> 09:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And what are some things that maybe we could do better on the civilian side that, you know, some things that you've taken away from, you know, from your career?
09:40 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a really good question, and in your example, it's just a reminder that everybody goes through.
09:51 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_03]: trauma and just unthinkable situations.
09:55 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And some in the military, as you said, more pronounced.
09:58 --> 10:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I did say that there are sometimes when military who have been through some of these traumatic situations or have been felt as if they were forced to do something that they didn't do, don't want to receive care from military people, but rather from the civilian community.
10:13 --> 10:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there are situations as you're talking that sometimes as much as the civilian
10:19 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_03]: There are some things that military people may only want to receive from other military people, but I think with a civilian community giving military people space and honoring their service in a meaningful way.
10:36 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_03]: is a gift that the civilian community can give to people who have served again because of some of the traumatic experiences that they've encountered on behalf of on behalf of the civilian population is
10:56 --> 11:11 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, if you were talking about your dad's experience, as a military chaplain, for me, I feel like it was easier in some of those more traumatic moments with the soldiers than it was to go back to families to give the word.
11:12 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, part of our role too is if there's a casualty.
11:17 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_03]: that the family has somebody notify them in person within 24 hours if somebody has died in theater or in the military in some way, shape or form and knocking on the door sort of coldly into an entering the home of of a mother or a father or wife or child.
11:38 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Those are those were some of the
11:41 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_03]: more difficult than even being in that moment of trauma just because of the, I've used the term whiplash already today, but that complete whiplash of somebody going on with his or her life, hoping for the best, and then here stands this person before them with some horrific, horrific news.
11:59 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember there's a series of podcasts I just became aware of.
12:06 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty stud of the UK.
12:08 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's this famous English actor who does the narration.
12:13 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really wonderfully done.
12:14 --> 12:16 [SPEAKER_00]: But they do a lot of historical podcasts.
12:16 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was listening to several of them.
12:18 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: They do one on the Titanic.
12:19 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's just listening to one on D-Day.
12:22 --> 12:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And they talk about the fact they share the story of this one soldier who told a sister, if I forget who the agency was back then, who would do the notification, like one of the post-hole agencies or whatever.
12:36 --> 12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: like look if you see individuals from this agency show up at the door like you have to answer the door mom and dad cannot like you have to be the one to deliver this news
12:46 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want them finding out from, you know, from just a snock at the door and yeah, I can't even imagine having to deliver news like that.
12:55 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in some ways like it, it would be somewhat easier because the soldiers who are serving together going knowing that there is that risk, there is that possibility whereas family members were at home just praying to God that like they come home safely.
13:08 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
13:10 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I should, one of the things I guess I should note about that with the casualty notification, not that we need to get all into this detail is that a chaplain always accompanies a notification officer, but the chaplain is never the one who actually delivers the news.
13:26 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that the military,
13:30 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_03]: set up that system for reason.
13:33 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think some of that has to do with construction and deconstruction of of of faith and what each person represents.
13:41 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So just an interesting piece of information with that notification.
13:45 --> 13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But what an awful job though.
13:47 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So like having set all this and in in
13:50 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the fact that the dark reality of it is that these things you happen, the things that keep you grounded personally How do you stay grounded amongst this sort of demanding role like how do you you do that people around me other soldiers themselves just bring me a lot of life and enjoy As you said the military is a very diverse organization, so it's it's a group of people that I probably never would have encountered had I not
14:15 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_03]: been in the military, and learning about different cultures and religions and ways of being and food gives me a lot of joy that senior chaplains and junior chaplains who served with me to my right and my left and carry me when I feel like I can't go further and I hope I carry them also gives me joy and just knowing some of the stories that
14:39 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_03]: and encounters that kind of reveal, I guess, the presence of something holy in the midst of something that may not look, may not look holy.
14:50 --> 15:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Also gives me a lot of hope and joy, as I a little bit, I mentioned these people from what we call third country nationals, but people from the two thirds world coming into, coming into theater, I remember there was an Air Force priest who had befriended me and I befriended him and we served together in Iraq.
15:07 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And the way that he invited me to join in mass and the way that he invited all these people from all of these different countries to join in mass and being in this kind of shack of a chapel under, you know, around concrete T walls to protect from mortars with a with a roof overhead for protection to but seeing it was almost like a glimpse of John's vision in revelation when he says, then I saw every tribe and every nation gathered around was it really, but it gave those moments of
15:34 --> 15:43 [SPEAKER_03]: all of these people from around the world coming together to celebrate with this Nigerian priest and getting the opportunity to hear their stories.
15:43 --> 15:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, wow, this is a glimpse of what I imagine heaven may be like even before in the midst of hell right now.
15:49 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_03]: That is something also that keeps me going holding on to those people in there and those experiences.
15:55 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's got to be some sort of innate
15:58 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, sort of community in just within the chaplains, you know, despite the fact that maybe you come from a different like stream of Christian thought, like there's got to be some, you know, sort of built-in camaraderie there where, you know, you, you kind of speak the same language and so, you know, a lot of ways.
16:16 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
16:16 --> 16:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And even beyond the Christian tradition as well, the opportunity to serve with Buddhist chaplains and Hindu chaplains and Jewish rabbis is something that I've had in the chaplain corner way that I don't think I would have had in parish ministry.
16:29 --> 16:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's been really, really fulfilling as well.
16:31 --> 16:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really cool.
16:32 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I talk about, you know, I took some seminary courses and one of them was like a world religions course and I know people who've listened to this podcast were probably tired me talking about, but it was such a, it was such a moving experience.
16:47 --> 16:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It was such a big experience for me.
16:49 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, like I've always been sort of open to learning about everything.
16:52 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But just had never taken the opportunity or never really had a I guess a good reason to or an invite I guess to go experience another form of worship.
17:00 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I went to a Hindu temple and like it was so moving.
17:03 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the temple priest for like three hours and he hands me like a handful of Mandarin oranges that at first I panic because I thought is there's something because you know we're supposed to prep before we go and be sure not offending people.
17:14 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So I took use off, you know, put it in the cubby when I went in and trying to be as anonymous as possible, but when you're the tallest payless guy there, it like, you got to stick out.
17:23 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Sweet little Owen comes up, she's like, can I help you?
17:25 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, looking at me kind of concerned, like, what does this guy doing here?
17:28 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And when I told her, I said, I'm just here to learn and take notes and kind of take things in for a course, you know, I'm taking, and she, she welcomes me in and says, my husband's a temple priest, he had just finished up some readings, and she's like, come, come, come, come, come.
17:41 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_00]: So he hands me out of these manner in oranges and I panicked because I thought is this part of like some ritual I was supposed to know before I came in here I should know I'm supposed to know what to do with these and it was just you know it offering like a gift a snack you know and I thought how sweet and then he's like what do you want to know oh and yeah we set that's conversation and it was not like
18:01 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, your typical Western evangelical experience, where they're immediately trying to convert you or like, you know, tell you about how all of your, you know, the things that you believe are wrong, you know, is very much like a seek to understand and like, hey, like, so you believe this right, and this is kind of what we believe and here's sort of where we meet in the middle and here are the things that are different and what else do you want to know.
18:23 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And he was just like, at the end, it was like the epitome of like welcoming someone to the table.
18:29 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And literally, he was like, we have this big feast, yes, every Sunday like you're more than welcome to come bring some friends and we just sit in eat and talk and I was like, yes, I love any, I'll be there.
18:42 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fantastic.
18:43 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
18:44 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
18:45 --> 18:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
18:45 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_03]: That kind of reminds me, as you were talking to, to kind of army stories that came to mind as well, though I was traveling with my commander to it was kind of the Iranian border to an Iraqi base where some of my soldiers were and I was going there to provide communion for them any kind of counsel that they might want, but I knew as I was going, I was this young white western female Christian cleric and how is it was an Iraqi base?
19:09 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_03]: How is Colonel Ola the Iraqi?
19:12 --> 19:23 [SPEAKER_03]: 60-year-old Middle Eastern Muslim going to accept me and typically women don't sit at the table with men, but he invited me to dinner with all of his officers.
19:23 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I sat at the table with him.
19:24 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_03]: He invited me into meetings and like you, I was careful to do what I needed to do not to offend.
19:29 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember making sure my feet were on the floor because showing the bottom of your foot is disrespectful and Iraqi culture and don't cross your legs so that the bottom of my foot shows.
19:40 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_03]: He said to me, he said, why don't you stay here and be our Imam?
19:45 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And I knew he wasn't asking me to be something that I wasn't.
19:49 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was, you know, half choking, but half serious.
19:51 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_03]: He said, because we don't have a religious leader here.
19:53 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So would you, would you stay in Isitville?
19:56 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go with Colonel Sprime, I command her.
19:58 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, well, pray for us.
20:00 --> 20:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Then, and he's looking me dead in the face.
20:02 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Just pray for us then, because I know that Allah always hears the prayers of the faithful.
20:07 --> 20:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And for him to tell me that it's something I've obviously carried from many years that I'll never forget.
20:14 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Just his grace and his welcome.
20:17 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_00]: That's beautiful.
20:18 --> 20:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah
20:20 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like I wanted to like I said before, I wanted to offer time at the end for you to kind of share some of the stories like that that that we're so impactful for you in your career.
20:30 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, any any other stories that you that you would like to share.
20:34 --> 20:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well, again, though, because I feel like this kind of opened up.
20:37 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_03]: This isn't my story.
20:38 --> 20:40 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a story of a friend of mine.
20:40 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_03]: He was actually one of my supervisors.
20:42 --> 20:45 [SPEAKER_03]: He was serving in Afghanistan as we're kind of talking about inter.
20:45 --> 20:48 [SPEAKER_03]: um, faith in these divisions that are breaking down.
20:48 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_03]: But it was around Easter time.
20:50 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_03]: He was serving in Afghanistan.
20:51 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_03]: He was in the dining hall.
20:53 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And he said there was a commotion.
20:54 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I wish he were here to tell it because he would tell it so much better maybe one day one day.
20:58 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_03]: You'll get to talk to him.
20:59 --> 21:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody said they need the Padre.
21:01 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_03]: and he goes out to the gate.
21:02 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_03]: He said he was terrified that there was all this commotion out at the out at the gate and there was a guy from who had gone into Pakistan who came with a package for him.
21:12 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's lots of shouting, lots of commotion.
21:14 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_03]: He said it was a couple of days before Easter.
21:17 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And this man is standing with the package right outside the gate and telling him, come outside of the gate right now.
21:23 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I have this package for you and he's like, oh my gosh,
21:26 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I am going to, and, and, and, and, and, and some people were going to walk out with him and he said no he has to come he has to come alone.
21:33 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And so he's terrified and he's stepping out and the guy is holding this package and he says tell me who you're God it's tell me who you're God isn't he's like the God of favor of him and he's trying to find this come now and he's like no, well tell me who you confess and and he's like the same God is you know the creator of the of the universe and he's
21:52 --> 21:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And he hands him the package and he says, open up the package right now and my friend opened it up.
21:58 --> 22:01 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a Pakistani New Testament.
22:01 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, happy Easter to you, Pastor.
22:04 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_03]: He was not Christian, but he had gone up into the mountains to a village far away to find this New Testament to give to this religious leader who he knew as the Padre as an Easter present.
22:16 --> 22:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, my friend thought he was going to get blown up,
22:24 --> 22:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and again, I wish you were here to tell the story because he tells it a lot better, but that's the just of it.
22:29 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible.
22:30 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's like the human story in all of this that sort of gets lost as we're sort of fighting these battles that oftentimes, you know, kind of pull in people who are not too dissimilar from us, you know, if we really got to know them.
22:46 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just unfortunate that, you know, the powers that be, you know, our fighting over land and resources and things.
22:53 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we hear stories like this where there are these just people interacting and sharing these beautiful moments amongst one another in the most, you know, unlikely of places.
23:03 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
23:03 --> 23:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
23:04 --> 23:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And finding that commonality, not remaining true to our own faith learning from somebody else's faith and also finding this commonality within and beyond our faith.
23:12 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
23:14 --> 23:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's so often it's it's there's a reason why, you know, you hear stories about other face meeting together and the thing the common bond always seems to be food, you know, sitting down at a table breaking bread together and sharing a meal and there's something that's just a nighting about that act.
23:32 --> 23:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
23:33 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
23:34 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And there are so many times, I mean, as you told your story and within, within our scripture, within scripture from other traditions as well, sharing that meal, that act that again, from our tradition, they recognize him in the breaking of the bread that we recognize people for who they are as children of God and the breaking of the bread together.
23:54 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And feeding, feeding each other,
23:59 --> 24:00 [SPEAKER_03]: is incredible.
24:01 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_03]: There was a Buddhist chaplain who invited me to, he was also a, had been a monastic before he became a Buddhist chaplain, but had invited me to the temple I was serving at Joint Base Lewis McCord out in Seattle and I had never been to dinner and somehow I was able to sit at the table with these Buddhist monastics and enjoy a meal with them where I think it was really forbidden for me to be there but the grace that they offered me was just again something
24:28 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think they do.
24:30 --> 24:34 [SPEAKER_00]: They obviously, like you obviously have a calming presence.
24:34 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, yeah, she belongs here, man.
24:35 --> 24:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, or they thought, hey, she needs to calm down.
24:38 --> 24:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So come to the monastery for a minute.
24:41 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's amazing, though.
24:44 --> 24:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I think everybody, given the opportunity, should try to have one of those experiences, I didn't realize until I started looking just a number of temples
24:58 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, all it took was an email.
25:00 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, hey, do you mind if I stop by and they're like, of course, you know, the hospitality was amazing.
25:05 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_00]: So I had that.
25:06 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:07 --> 25:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:07 --> 25:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, any final words I know we're getting towards the end here of our time.
25:11 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Any final thoughts?
25:12 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Anything big one.
25:13 --> 25:13 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it.
25:14 --> 25:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I could go on for days so I'll spare you of that.
25:17 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_03]: But I really appreciate the time.
25:19 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_03]: that I've had with you.
25:20 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_03]: If any listeners out there are interested in military chaplaincy too, we always are looking for people from all kinds of backgrounds to serve and it is a fulfilling vocation.
25:31 --> 25:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So if it's starting in you, maybe listen to it.
25:33 --> 25:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
25:34 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Are there any links that I could provide that would send them in the right direction if they're interested?
25:38 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but I should I what's the best way of
25:41 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just send it to me, and I'll make sure that I put them in the show notes so that I have that.
25:46 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Perfect.
25:47 --> 25:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
25:48 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So much, this is incredible.
25:49 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I knew it would be like I said, just thoroughly enjoyed your sermon that you gave at our wonderful church that was such a great gift to me.
25:57 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I know definitely shed a few tears throughout.
26:00 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was definitely very impactful and I greatly appreciate it.
26:03 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for coming on.
26:04 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you, John.
26:05 --> 26:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for having me.
26:06 --> 26:09 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, um, I'm honored to be a part of this.
26:10 --> 26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And was young and driven with a heart of gold.
26:18 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Finishing them in every married found a church he could go on.
26:27 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Made a living, giving dying folks a shoulder and a hand.
26:35 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Until he told his leaders that he had some feelings for another man And they said, You must go and take your broken heart and walk it to the door
27:08 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But now your damage goes and you gotta get some more John we love you But we can't love you You must go
27:42 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_01]: and can't sing a song in China the day wide.
27:51 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Spend a decade sharing it and kept herself in line until her eyes began to see.
28:11 --> 28:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Revol, she thought, began to fall apart The face of Jen You must go We didn't know your quest Will lead you down this road We know your searching
28:41 --> 28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Now you wandered off and you got a one-door Then we love you But we can't have you You must go
29:16 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The chain was born with skin, darker than her peers Spend a cycle of telling them the reasons for her fear
29:49 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess, make such a dream Makes for your time But there's no room for you When this power on my mind I know you're hurting When I feel sneezing
30:21 --> 30:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So go where harder and you'll all be fine You must go So John and Jen and Jane were on the streets without home Abandoned by the one
30:57 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, try Don't you go I want your broken heart and beautiful soul I've felt your hurting I've seen you giving And I'll stay right here to you have the power to stand
31:28 --> 31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't want you, but I know they need you Let us go
31:57 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_01]: My people, the rejected and broken I'm turned away that I go And live out the plainly in the mountains To the promise land To come out And my people, the rejected and broken I'm turned away that I go