🧵 Episode Summary:
In Part 2 of our conversation with Bailey Krawczyk, we move from the experience of life inside Hillsong to the harrowing process of getting out. Bailey opens up about the aftermath of leaving, the emotional toll of speaking out in the Hillsong documentary, and the backlash from those still inside the movement.
We also explore the broader systems that allowed abuse and control to flourish unchecked—and why naming these systems is the first step toward healing.
🔑 Key Themes:
- The trauma of leaving a high-control religious group
- Psychological aftermath: shame, guilt, grief, and recovery
- The media spotlight and what it didn’t show
- How systems of power protect abusive leadership
- Deconstructing your faith after spiritual betrayal
🧑💼 About the Guest:
Bailey Krawczyk continues to advocate for survivors of spiritual and institutional abuse. Her story has resonated with thousands of others who have walked away from toxic faith environments in search of something more whole, more honest, and more human.
📌 Resources Mentioned:
- Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]
- https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/
- Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956
- [Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
- [Podcast] Leaving Hillsong
- [Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com
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Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.
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00:06 --> 00:08 [SPEAKER_02]: When did we lose?
00:11 --> 00:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the deconstruction as podcast.
00:13 --> 00:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host John Williamson and we're back with part two.
00:17 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Last time Bailey Crochet walked us through her early years at Hillsong.
00:22 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_02]: The excitement, the community and the creeping sense that something wasn't quite right.
00:26 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Today in part two, we go deeper.
00:28 --> 00:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Bailey opens up about the systemic issues she witnessed firsthand.
00:32 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_02]: The high control tactics marked as discipleship.
00:35 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And what it was like to speak out publicly in the wake of the Hillsong documentary.
00:39 --> 00:40 [SPEAKER_02]: This episode pulls no punches.
00:41 --> 00:47 [SPEAKER_02]: If you've ever questioned what happens behind the stage lights of celebrity church culture, this one is for you.
00:47 --> 00:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And so without further ado, I give you Bailey Freakin' Crochet.
00:58 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's funny that you mentioned, I was just to say, I feel like a lot of evangelical movements, certainly not exclusive to Hillsong, certainly not exclusive to vineyard, but they kind of get caught up in this Christian celebrity.
01:10 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I remember seeing articles or magazine magazines or whatever that had Carl Lens hanging out with Justin Bieber and all these celebrities, you know, this sweet abs and you know, you're like,
01:22 --> 01:23 [SPEAKER_01]: My, give me a break.
01:23 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, what is going on here?
01:26 --> 01:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you see situations where like mega churches who are led by these celebrity pastors, the celebrity pastor doesn't know stive for what reason or another.
01:35 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And because it's so structured around this centralized figure, then the church collapses, which is so funny.
01:41 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, because, like, I was talking to by, again, I was talking to my, my pastor here about that.
01:45 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, that just doesn't happen in the Lutheran Church, mostly because there's no real personal tie between the minister and the building itself, right?
01:54 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Cause like, yes.
01:55 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_02]: most of our churches were built hundreds of years ago and so like those people are long since daddy who ever founded it.
02:01 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_02]: But like these churches are new and there's like a stake in the game here because a lot of times the pastor who's the lead there is the person who really built it up from a living room gathering to this huge church and then they're seeking this this fame trip and then if something happens then you just see this entire you know hills are not hills on but up
02:21 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Marcel does the situation.
02:23 --> 02:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I have this main campus and then they had these satellite campuses, which cracked me up, where they would satellite in his service.
02:29 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, the hell so I started doing that too.
02:32 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Really.
02:32 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.
02:33 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like the online church during COVID, it really, it really rose.
02:37 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is crazy because it's, like, it's, functionally a church, you know, the one you're going to, but like, there's no past or preaching there, you're watching at a TV in the Pew's at, I don't know, it's weird.
02:49 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, no in, yeah, that was in a lot of their church plants were like that because you had the, the hub, so the hills, which was the mega church in Sydney.
02:59 --> 03:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you would have all these other little hill song churches around Sydney or other Australian cities
03:07 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: where they would just play the live sermon that's happening at the Hills campus.
03:13 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was bizarre.
03:15 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, why are you going to just watch a TV?
03:18 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I, you know, I get it, but it was just mind-blowing to me, just how much the Hills song, just having the Hills song name,
03:28 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_01]: boosted your attendance, boosted your sales.
03:32 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was even crazy apparent to me because little insider information with the Hillsong Kansas City, but the pastor got a notice before the documentary was about to break.
03:44 --> 03:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, you have twenty four hours to sign over all your assets and or you can't have our name anymore.
03:54 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't be considered a Hillsong campus.
03:57 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And the pastor smart, you know, he was like, okay, that seems sketchy.
04:03 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This seems so out of the blue, I'm not going to sign over everything.
04:07 --> 04:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, a few days later, the documentary drops.
04:12 --> 04:15 [SPEAKER_01]: takes a huge hit, like all hillsong takes a huge hit.
04:15 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Because then they were trying to get as much money as they could before their name was about to be tarnished and it just was also extremely eye-opening that process of seeing, yep, like they really were also surviving just from their name alone.
04:31 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: They had built up such a strong presence in the Christian industry, a staple.
04:37 --> 04:39 [SPEAKER_01]: of a standard, and that's what they really wanted, right?
04:39 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_01]: They had this thing called, we cultivate a culture of excellence.
04:44 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was essentially, because God is perfection, the least we can do and strive for is be the most excellent and near perfect as we can be.
04:53 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And the most God like that we can be.
04:55 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's how they also got away with some of the celebrity in the height.
05:00 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And all of that, because they're like, whoa,
05:02 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to do the history standard thing.
05:05 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're not living in the past.
05:07 --> 05:08 [SPEAKER_01]: We're staying up to date.
05:09 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a channel.
05:10 --> 05:12 [SPEAKER_01]: We have, you know, we're working on movies.
05:12 --> 05:13 [SPEAKER_01]: We have bands.
05:13 --> 05:13 [SPEAKER_01]: We tour.
05:14 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We do all this stuff and and they kind of put it under the guise of of excellence.
05:20 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We have to do everything to the best of their and they did.
05:23 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they did make things that were really hip and really
05:27 --> 05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, catchy for the outsider or the young person and it's like, oh, you know, they're in the know, like, this isn't my parents church, you know, and they survived so long with that.
05:40 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And just like you said earlier, like when the name takes to hit,
05:44 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: you're done.
05:46 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_01]: When your reputation is tarnished, when you can't pull in the numbers anymore, I guess you're out.
05:52 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what happened with Carl, right?
05:54 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, like, unfortunately, buddy, yeah, we really knew what you were up to this whole time.
05:59 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't really have an issue with it.
06:00 --> 06:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But now the public is, they know what's going on.
06:03 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we really can't have you.
06:05 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Your face, I do us anymore.
06:06 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And goodbye, same thing with Brian.
06:09 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just, yeah, it was really crazy.
06:12 --> 06:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like the move is to cut the cut your losses, you know, get rid of the folks who are tarnishing your brand because that's really what it is, right?
06:22 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's a brand, you know, it's got the music thing and it's so funny because there's so many parallels to the series I did on the vineyard where they have this thing that they used to call the new while they still call this.
06:33 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_02]: The nuclear option and that is if a church pisses them off enough, you know, at the end of the day, they own the trademark.
06:41 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_02]: for the video name.
06:42 --> 06:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And so they can yank that trademark.
06:45 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
06:46 --> 06:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And so like you, you can continue to function as a church, just not as vineyard.
06:50 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to take them down.
06:52 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to, you know, all that stuff.
06:53 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And so they've definitely done that.
06:55 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And they also, you know, have done similar things in the sense that, you know, they're there.
07:01 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Fine, they were, you know, seemingly fine with some of these leaders who were abusing their staff because they were growing their church and they were planting other churches, but as soon as it became public, like I still ask the question I said, you know, had these, these, the husband and wife pastor duo and Duluth would that have ever come out about how they were abusing their staff had it not been for the arrest of their son.
07:24 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And I honestly don't know the answer to that question.
07:27 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
07:28 --> 07:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably a no because like so many of these evangelical movements, it's like growth and all costs protect the brand circle of wagons, you know, live these extravagant lifestyle.
07:40 --> 07:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Similar, you know, the now national director, he's from Columbus, Ohio, here where I live.
07:45 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, that former staff used to be like, there's pictures of him in Mexico with this staff doing another retreat.
07:52 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_02]: That must be nice.
07:54 --> 08:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so like, you see where the funds are going and then, you know, reasonable people start to ask questions like, is this where our money's going?
08:00 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are we doing here?
08:03 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So talk about like you mentioned the pandemic as sort of this thing that sort of separates you from the movement and it allows you that space to sort of ask those questions and say is this what we really want your fan says experiencing these other things too or it seems like there's sort of raising him up is like maybe the next car lents
08:22 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But like obviously you both sound like very reasonable individuals who are asking questions.
08:29 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Talk about what that transition was like because for a lot of people, as you know, listening to deconstructionists, a lot of people, this is their entire community.
08:37 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_02]: This is their whole life.
08:38 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And so to sabotage with that is an effect to disrupt your entire life.
08:43 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So talk about part of the process for you.
08:46 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was still kind of in that limbo space.
08:50 --> 08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't, honestly, I started to get a little more into feminist theology.
08:56 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And just started asking hard questions about why, you know, is this all knowing all loving, all powerful God?
09:07 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Why couldn't he just put in a few verses in there that just maybe clarified or him knowing how this would, you know, enslave people or, you know, lead so many people into toxic, you know, extreme, extreme environments.
09:25 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I started really wrestling.
09:27 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_01]: That was some of the first questions, but I, and Virginia, I got a just a video job at,
09:35 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_01]: another little local Christian college, and that one was also not hip, not Hillsong, not progressive, and just definitely in the night is kind of vibe, and they were a little more heavy on the purity culture, and some of the staff was talking about how
09:54 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we believe in created order and that, you know, the man was created first and then the woman and therefore, you know, the woman is subservient and the man has all domination over the woman and and everything essentially.
10:09 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, really, is that what you want to be teaching your daughters?
10:13 --> 10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is that teacher daughter?
10:14 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think I remember saying that and he got quite irritated with me.
10:20 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And around the same time, I ended up getting a diagnosis that was kind of a life-changing diagnosis.
10:28 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I went in and had like a pelvic floor exam.
10:32 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I got diagnosed with vaginism, which is a condition, which is sex or penetration is either extremely painful or it can't happen.
10:43 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, what way did this come from?
10:46 --> 10:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder, and it's very common.
10:49 --> 10:49 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a few
10:50 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember which college published it.
10:53 --> 11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like Harvard or one of those IV's published an article, just about not even just evangelical, but any extreme form of religion and how they teach sex and how that can create vaginism.
11:08 --> 11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And long term association of sex with, you know, it being
11:14 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: and evil and bad can create this effect in your body where your body starts to see sex or anything or even your sexuality as a threat.
11:26 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And growing up anytime I had a crush, I would shut it down.
11:30 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I would watch the duggers and there was this weird idea that like, I had to, yo, yeah, I know.
11:37 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, oh, should I not kiss until my wedding day?
11:40 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Should I, you know, then my parents are like, oh,
11:43 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: that's nice you know and I feel bad because you know your parent really does just kind of want to protect you and they were kind of falling into the purity culture lies as well and you do just want the best for your child and I hold I hold no resentment towards my my family anymore but
12:02 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there was a lot of that.
12:03 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Anytime I had any sexual things, shut me aside, this is wrong, this is bad, this is evil.
12:08 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to save myself and you protect myself to bad relationships later.
12:12 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ruined.
12:15 --> 12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, hence my first episode was the breaking free from sexual shame that I listened to, but I was really wrestling with
12:25 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_01]: these purity culture, this purity culture ideology that I'd grown up with, and then getting that diagnosis was just such a wow.
12:35 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So if this ideology is so good, then why can't I do something my body was designed to do?
12:44 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really struggled for, you know, even still struggle with vaginismist.
12:50 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have made a lot a lot of progress, but it was that was what broke me.
12:56 --> 13:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Because not only did I kind of start to speak about it, I went a little viral on TikTok, just kind of talking about it and talking about how extreme religion and purity culture can create this.
13:08 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Other things can, too, like,
13:10 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: like a sexual assault or a really extreme pregnancy, but for me because I had had it at such a young age and it was something that had developed in me due to my certain type of thinking.
13:24 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And so essentially I got a call from one of my bosses and she was like, hey, some of the kids at school are
13:34 --> 13:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Like seeing something that you're posting about, you know, I just want to learn a little more about it.
13:39 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And I explained, and she was honestly quite receptive.
13:43 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought we had sorted it out.
13:45 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And then two days later, in my inbox, I received a, you have been terminated from employment with this college.
13:55 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was a contractor, and Virginia was an at-will firing state.
14:00 --> 14:02 [SPEAKER_02]: So they didn't have- How did you make email, though?
14:02 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That's horrible.
14:04 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, just your contract is been terminated and I was just like, and that broke me and I didn't let them just get away Scott free.
14:17 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I marched in there and had a meeting with them.
14:20 --> 14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And essentially, grilled them then, I made them super uncomfortable.
14:25 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I explained evangelism, my experience with sexual assault, my experience with purity, culture, what is happening in my body.
14:34 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, and if you feel uncomfortable right now, you should, because there should not be a circumstance in which an employee has to divulge this extremely personal information to their boss just because they feel like their job is on the line.
14:51 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really let them have it.
14:53 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, I know that they kind of had the blinders on and they were just like, get this woman out of our church.
15:00 --> 15:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is crazy to think about because essentially if I'm understanding this correctly, your body is having a physiological reaction to an extremely ideology that's been perpetrated throughout your life.
15:16 --> 15:22 [SPEAKER_02]: that ideology was so intense, mentally speaking that it literally caused physical reactions.
15:24 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And we still can't see, like, that this is doing damage.
15:27 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_02]: His purity culture nonsense is not biblical.
15:30 --> 15:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's doing damage to our young women.
15:34 --> 15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also so under-researched.
15:38 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And no, I remember making TikTok videos in just getting my inbox flooded.
15:42 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think I have this, I grew up in the church.
15:46 --> 15:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I also were constantly associating in any time.
15:50 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I would think about sex.
15:52 --> 16:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, you hate your body, you hate yourself because you're leading men into sin and you're in just by existing.
16:00 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You're a sexual being that is tense.
16:03 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Just all of that.
16:04 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I just shoved it down.
16:05 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: This is bad.
16:06 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This is bad.
16:07 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: This is bad.
16:08 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But then somehow when you get married magically, it's okay.
16:12 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And it should go away.
16:14 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That is not how that works.
16:15 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_01]: You've conditioned yourself to think this is a threat.
16:19 --> 16:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's actually way more common in extreme religion, any extreme religion where they teach purity culture like this, but it's way more common and it's just not talked about.
16:33 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the crux of that, of course, it comes back to it's all dependent upon, you know, from the point of view of the male, which is the gross thing about this thing, right?
16:44 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, how do you look in the eyes of the males of society?
16:48 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, and so that yeah, as long as the weird about that, too, like I remember there was a married we I was on a shoot and we had to go off campus and essentially we took two cars, but the majority of the group had to go somewhere else and then me and this other guy had to go back to the campus.
17:08 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being like, okay, I'll just go with this guy.
17:11 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He's, you know, married and not like, shouldn't be an issue.
17:16 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: But then they're like, oh, well, we need somebody else in the car because it shouldn't just be him and you alone in the car together.
17:25 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, we're going goddamn five minutes down the road.
17:29 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, be real.
17:31 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_01]: He's married.
17:32 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is going to happen in the five minutes?
17:36 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it just was, they, there was always this kind of subtle.
17:40 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And even some of the, the pastors, you know, who's that pastor that was like huge in the, is the tella evangelist?
17:49 --> 17:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He ministers to the queen.
17:50 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_01]: He ministers to the queen.
17:52 --> 17:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it wasn't the eighties, sorry.
17:53 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway.
17:55 --> 18:07 [SPEAKER_01]: He was like prominent prominent one of the biggest almost celebrity pastors of America and all these these guys idolize him Graham Billy Graham Billy Graham
18:10 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like a lot of these people.
18:13 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like Billy Graham and I remember dating a guy in college and him being like, well, it's I have a conviction because Billy Graham had this conviction that he would never be alone in a room with another woman ever, even in an elevator.
18:29 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't be alone with another woman ever.
18:33 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, also, you can't do that.
18:35 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, okay, but there is this weird thing like, oh, heaven forbid you are, you know, going to be alone in another room with a woman in cheese is gonna be some of a somewhat of a temptress and and and lead you astray or make you have an affair or whatever just by existing.
18:53 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it was a weird kind of undertone.
18:59 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's that the other second part of that.
19:01 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_02]: That's problematic because the guys are like treated like kids almost like.
19:06 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
19:07 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:07 --> 19:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Can't help and stuff.
19:08 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So like, yes, you can.
19:10 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you can.
19:10 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
19:11 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you have every ability in the universe to make good decisions and not bad ones.
19:16 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you just have chosen not to.
19:18 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, God.
19:18 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the teachers from men.
19:19 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's exactly.
19:21 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_01]: She's just men that they, they don't have control over their bodies.
19:24 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're not responsible for it then.
19:26 --> 19:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
19:28 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And exactly, women aren't the only ones that have struggled due to purity culture.
19:35 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: The similar ideology, it manifests in men as well.
19:40 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of on the other side of the coin.
19:43 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So it is very wild.
19:47 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a huge pivotal turning point for me.
19:51 --> 19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That made me question, start to question everything.
19:54 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I actually don't think that this ideology is good.
20:00 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_01]: If my whole life going to church, everything that I've ever gotten out of church has caused me some form of pain or some, you know, something that that has either put me down, has made me hate myself, has not given me an ounce of peace.
20:17 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this really a good thing for me?
20:20 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is this something that is maybe, you know,
20:23 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: just benefits a specific type of person and I'm not that person.
20:27 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I really started to go down, go down that hole.
20:32 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so let's, let's go right into it then.
20:34 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, at what point I'd like to think that my podcast solved all those problems for you, but I, uh, it's not through and should not be, it should not be anyone's only resource.
20:44 --> 20:45 [SPEAKER_02]: By the way, I'm kidding.
20:46 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it was a mine opener, though.
20:50 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It really set everything in a motion.
20:52 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, good.
20:53 --> 20:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad.
20:54 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, from that perspective, too, it's just like we always tell people like, hey, listen, you know, we are big proponents of therapy and go to professionals for that side of things, but so talk about your own journey.
21:06 --> 21:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you mentioned in your email to me that, you know,
21:10 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_02]: sort of using your creative process to sort of process what you had just been through.
21:14 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So talk about sort of the next steps in your journey there.
21:17 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_02]: What did that look like?
21:19 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for anyone who is becoming deprogrammed, it is a
21:25 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: a law.
21:26 --> 21:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a sprint.
21:27 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
21:28 --> 21:30 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a marathon.
21:30 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, it's taken years, years to get where I am now, where I genuinely feel at peace with my spirituality.
21:39 --> 21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel at peace with myself, my own identity.
21:42 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you start to realize, okay, I don't think I believe this anymore.
21:48 --> 21:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Then the next question is,
21:50 --> 21:51 [SPEAKER_01]: What do I believe?
21:51 --> 22:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had spent my entire life, especially when you're growing up in the church every day, every Sunday, you spend in Sunday school weekends, you're doing outreaches.
22:03 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I went to college for it.
22:05 --> 22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I literally built the foundation of my worldview centered around God and
22:13 --> 22:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Christianity, and so at this point, I had to become a child again.
22:19 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to learn how to, I had to view the world through a completely new eyes, a new lens, and then start to build up.
22:30 --> 22:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's also, there's a betrayal of self that happens because it's like, you can't even trust yourself if I had believed this thing for so long,
22:40 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I was so into it and it's what I based all my decisions off of, it's like, how do I even trust myself to find a new ideology that is right?
22:54 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and what is something that is right?
22:57 --> 22:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything that is right?
22:59 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And his little nihilistic, a little bit of a nihilistic period,
23:06 --> 23:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And having to kind of restructure and it takes a long time.
23:12 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It does it to build, you know, trust back up in yourself and not only that, but a huge part of being in more of a toxic Christian environment is that you're taught that to not trust yourself in any way.
23:26 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you
23:28 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, you are last.
23:30 --> 23:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody is above you.
23:32 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a you betray yourself a lot.
23:35 --> 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not taught to really take care of yourself or your mental health and that was something that was really reiterated at Hillsong.
23:44 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That was never
23:46 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: you're burnt out, keep going, you know, and so just also learning how to love myself and that it's okay.
23:54 --> 24:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm okay, but at the same time, it's like, well, all my worth comes from God, all my worth, my identity is in him.
24:03 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So if I don't have him anymore, what do I have?
24:07 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it's like,
24:08 --> 24:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought and I was preached to my whole life that I was going to do big things and I am worth something because God has a plan for my life and God thinks I can do these things and God is giving me worth and so when God is taken out of the equation it's like where is that worth coming from and
24:27 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it was all a lie.
24:29 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I am just to drop in the ocean of people that are just that are going to, that life is meaningless, again, a little nihilism.
24:40 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I'm not special.
24:43 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_01]: that was also a little bit of a thing that I had to go through because that's something that is also really preached in and Christianity is like, you are chosen, you are special, you are called, you serve a huge purpose, you're, you know, because God is in your life, you are worthy and, and so when I had that anymore, it was like, I had an ego death almost, I was like, I am nothing.
25:08 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_01]: and but with I am nothing also comes well I can be something but it has to come from me now it's not it's dictate who I am not God and it's like I still can be something so now I'm getting out of the nihilism I'm moving from I am nothing to well maybe I can be something without God
25:33 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_01]: and building that back up as well.
25:35 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And then being like, you know what?
25:38 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And then after this whole journey starting to realize, it always was me.
25:42 --> 25:45 [SPEAKER_01]: The power always was in myself.
25:45 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_01]: What I can do and what I can't do was always coming from me and sure it was almost being funneled through.
25:53 --> 26:20 [SPEAKER_01]: through God, but even if you take God out of the equation, I still believe that I can do big things or I still believe that I am worth something and just framing that my worth is from God versus my worth is who I think I who I say I am is was a life-changing process for me and it was quite dark for a while.
26:20 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think it's understandable and it's a story, a similar type of story that I've heard before.
26:25 --> 26:29 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's almost like I would refer to it as taking God out of the building.
26:32 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_02]: God exists everywhere, and sometimes the established church or the church building is standing in the way.
26:40 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And so like, you know, Diana Butler Bass, one of my favorite guests, talks about God being in the woods or God being in the stream and God being in nature, you know, and so it's almost like
26:51 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like everything, including that.
26:54 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:55 --> 27:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's almost like, all right, this building is not my relationship with the divide, you know, yes, yes, for their interpretation.
27:05 --> 27:07 [SPEAKER_02]: and see to declare yourself, which is very cool.
27:07 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And that just took a long time to get there.
27:11 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But once, yeah, once I realized like, you know, because for so long, I also was just wearing a mask, you know, to my community and my family and everybody, I'm still kind of a Christian.
27:26 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like, you know, taking a step back.
27:29 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But really, I am having a intense struggle inside of like, is this real?
27:35 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I even remember there was a moment where I had a friend who I went to college with and he asked me, you know, cause I was struggling and I was like, well, I don't know.
27:45 --> 27:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And he did it.
27:47 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, well, do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
27:51 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I was like, I don't know anymore.
27:54 --> 27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, then you're not a Christian.
27:56 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a little harsh at first.
28:00 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
28:00 --> 28:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But it kind of shook me up.
28:03 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And for the first time, I started thinking maybe I'm not a Christian anymore.
28:08 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm not.
28:09 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And what does Jesus mean?
28:10 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's okay because Jesus wasn't either.
28:15 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's exactly.
28:17 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
28:17 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Jesus was a Jew.
28:18 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I like exactly exactly.
28:21 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like what what is Christianity?
28:24 --> 28:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Like even yeah, it's defined that.
28:27 --> 28:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's defined in a how many umbrellas of Christianity are there as well.
28:34 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, okay, if you believe in this, and they are Catholic and you're a Pentecostal, and you still fundamentally disagree on certain things.
28:42 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you still basically believe the same thing, but you kind of don't believe the other is a Christian at the same time.
28:50 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you do get wrapped up in the labels of things, and I think similarly, I started to take the route of, you know, for me, the divine is in everything.
29:02 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I still strongly believe there is a source.
29:04 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a creator, but I don't think it's defined by a singular, like one person has it all figured out just because you were bored and misery, you know?
29:17 --> 29:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, sorry, because that was a huge thing like, you know, where you're born completely for the most part, dictates the type of religion that you'll end up believing in.
29:29 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, oh, sorry, you were born in Iran.
29:32 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're wrong.
29:33 --> 29:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm right.
29:34 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I was born in America.
29:36 --> 29:38 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I period, you know?
29:39 --> 29:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
29:41 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a huge shift.
29:43 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and a lot of that came with degree as well.
29:47 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of had the blocks, the foundation to kind of look at Christianity through a lens that this is for me just a capture of time of
29:59 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, different of a time and history of different people groups and what their faith was and following how that is evolved because do not tell me the God of the Old Testament is the same God and the New Testament and that they didn't evolve and become slightly more progressive over that period of time.
30:22 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we are watching in real time through the Bible
30:25 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_01]: ideologies evolve and so looking at religion in more of that lens or the Bible in that lens, allow me to open my mind up to spirituality being something that is way more fluid than maybe the Bible or other religious texts kind of define it.
30:46 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fair.
30:47 --> 30:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely fascinating.
30:48 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So talk a little bit about like, you know, I know we're running short on time here, but like, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about your new project.
30:55 --> 30:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So tell people about that and where they can go to see it.
30:58 --> 30:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:58 --> 31:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's completely forgot about that.
31:01 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_02]: We got that, you know, promote it.
31:03 --> 31:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Come on.
31:05 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, recently.
31:07 --> 31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I did have the privilege of my short film deconstruction premiering in London at BFI I max.
31:14 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a straight eight contender.
31:17 --> 31:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was all shot on super eight film.
31:20 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a very unique competition because essentially the process is you can't edit it.
31:26 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: You get one super eight cartridge that you pop into the camera.
31:30 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to shoot it in order as if you are editing in camera chronologically.
31:36 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And you fill up the whole cartridge which is about three minutes and then you ship it off for them to develop and then you ship your audio and they sync it to the first frame of the film.
31:45 --> 31:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very unique, very fun competition, a lot of limitations, but I decided to put
31:53 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Everything that I just kind of been through now that I feel that I've kind of incoming out on the other side of it.
32:00 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And essentially, I was like, you know, I want to make something about deconstruction.
32:05 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So the premise of the film is a none is compelled to leave her comment after questioning her faith, deleting her on a deeply personal journey.
32:16 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_01]: of rediscovering and redefining what spirituality means to her beyond the confines of organized religion.
32:24 --> 32:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a silent film, but it kind of leads you on this spiritual journey at a lot of influence of like tree of life, kind of vibes, a lot of spirituality in nature.
32:38 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and the premise really was just
32:44 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: that journey and although it's painful and you do experience rejection, there is so much hope in the process and in the journey and finding something that gives you peace.
32:55 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is what I want to help people do if they are going through a similar situation.
33:01 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.
33:02 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So where can people see this or is it available yet for folks to see who aren't in London?
33:08 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It is it is not just as a singular video because it is on the festival circuit.
33:15 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't release it quite yet, but the straight eight live stream is available in my bio and you can watch the other films as well as mine.
33:25 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Mine is around the forty five minute mark the time stamp and you'll see my name in the title pop up.
33:32 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_01]: at the screening, but you can watch it at the screening and the link is in my Instagram bio.
33:37 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
33:37 --> 33:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I will definitely make sure that's in the show notes.
33:40 --> 33:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Folks got and watch it.
33:41 --> 33:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Bailey, again, awesome to get to meet you and a privilege and an honor to have you on.
33:46 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you so much for listening, too.
33:48 --> 33:49 [SPEAKER_02]: That goes back to you.
33:49 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not so good.
33:50 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I cannot believe it'll be because Adam, who originally started the podcast with me, he and I sat down.
33:56 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
33:57 --> 33:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me lady it.
33:58 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be ten years in December, November, December.
34:02 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
34:02 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.
34:04 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, thank you and thank you for everything you've done.
34:09 --> 34:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I know how many people that you have probably encouraged and inspired and have pushed to grow.
34:17 --> 34:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was honestly, I don't know what that kid who recommended the podcast was going through.
34:22 --> 34:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, I look back and I wonder, I'm like, were you?
34:26 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I would recommend it.
34:31 --> 34:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And it really, it opened my mind because a lot of people who grow up and more conservative, sheltered communities are not presented with the Bible and Christianity in religion in such a way and also with such critical thinking and such a historical lens and just all sorts of different people and takes in.
34:56 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It changed me, it changed the trajectory of my life, honestly.
35:00 --> 35:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I am a testament of this podcast.
35:05 --> 35:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I greatly appreciated it very humbled by that still to this day.
35:09 --> 35:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It still blows my mind.
35:11 --> 35:12 [SPEAKER_02]: But thank you so much.
35:12 --> 35:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for coming on and sharing your story.
35:15 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, go check out Billy's work.
35:17 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have it in the show notes.
35:19 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, again, thank you so much for coming on.
35:22 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
35:24 --> 35:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Does God have a faith?
35:30 --> 35:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Does He have a body or even a name?
35:35 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_04]: If He does, does He know that I'm alive?
35:47 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_04]: Is God
35:52 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_04]: But she gave it I down to she gave it I feel something to me calling Will survive So take a breath, breathe in the mystery
36:22 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, His face must look like yours.
36:50 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_04]: Did God kill his kid?
36:55 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_04]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
37:00 --> 37:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we need it.
37:03 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_04]: Made it God.
37:06 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_04]: It looks like us.
37:07 --> 37:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Does God know my name?
37:17 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain?
37:23 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_04]: Even so, does that mean?
37:28 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_04]: It's not real.
37:29 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_04]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that is there.
37:48 --> 38:04 [SPEAKER_03]: If God has a face, a face must love like you
38:15 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_04]: A face like a teen, a nomad, a milled red, a ross and his husband, God send their children, face like a Kim, a TED or Tyrone, a little seaborn with an extra chromosome,
38:37 --> 38:57 [SPEAKER_04]: A powerful with legs he can't move by himself A girl born and then you'll Now is then now A pillage of evil Even white guy's name tile If you have a heartbeat, you are
39:22 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_03]: To take a breath, breathe A mystery that is there You never lose weight at all But I think the truth is If God has a face, a face must love
39:53 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_04]: God has a face, his face must love.
39:58 --> 40:07 [SPEAKER_04]: If God has a face, the face of one's peace, yours.