🧵 Episode Summary:
In this first of a two-part conversation, we sit down with Bailey Krawczyk, a former Hillsong member who bravely spoke out in the Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed documentary. Bailey shares what initially drew her to the movement—its music, its energy, its promises of purpose—and how that promise slowly unraveled.
From inside the worship team to behind-the-scenes control tactics, Bailey gives us a raw, unfiltered look at life inside one of the most influential—and controversial—church brands in the world.
If you’ve ever felt conflicted about your time in a megachurch, or questioned how power and performance intersect with faith, this episode is for you.
🔑 Key Themes:
- How Hillsong built an emotionally immersive culture
- The fine line between community and control
- The spiritual cost of performance-based faith
- Early red flags that often go unnoticed
- What “high control” church culture really looks like
🧑💼 About the Guest:
Bailey Krawczyk is a former Hillsong member and whistleblower featured in the Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed documentary. Her advocacy work now focuses on empowering survivors of spiritual abuse and raising awareness about high-control religious environments.
📌 Resources Mentioned:
- Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]
- https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/
- Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956
- [Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
- [Podcast] Leaving Hillsong
- [Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com
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Special Music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.
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00:06 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_01]: When did we lose?
00:10 --> 00:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the deconstruction as podcast.
00:12 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host John Williamson and it's easy to forget when you're inside a movement that's booming.
00:18 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That what feels like spiritual momentum can sometimes be something else entirely.
00:23 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Something more controlling, more performative, and more dangerous.
00:27 --> 00:28 [SPEAKER_00]: My guest today is Bailey Crossic.
00:29 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_00]: You may recognize her from the recent Hillsong documentary where she courageously opened up about her time inside one of the most influential mega church movements in the world.
00:38 --> 00:48 [SPEAKER_00]: In this first part of our conversation, Bailey shares what drew her to Hillsong, how the cultures slowly shifted around her, and what it took to finally start asking the hard questions.
00:48 --> 00:57 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a story about loyalty, disillusionment, and waking up to the uncomfortable truth that not everything branded as church is sacred.
00:58 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Without further ado, here's Bailey, Breakin' Cross.
01:07 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:07 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the deconstructions podcast.
01:10 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very excited to have my guest on today.
01:11 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Bailey Crossic.
01:13 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Did I do it?
01:14 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
01:15 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.
01:15 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:15 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We're off to a great start then.
01:17 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Great start.
01:19 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_00]: We were just talking about the fact that you'd reach out to me and it was right at this perfect time because you have a very interesting story to tell and we'll get into that that very much parallels this side project spoiled fruit that I just released.
01:34 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's kind of perfect timing.
01:36 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, you are going to be the first interview that I have done in nearly a year.
01:42 --> 01:44 [SPEAKER_00]: So now I'm getting, yeah.
01:45 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So congrats on that, I guess.
01:49 --> 01:54 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, tell people a little bit about who you are and a little bit about your background.
01:54 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So my name is Bailey.
01:56 --> 02:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I am writer, director, actor, but I am also a Hillsong survivor.
02:03 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And I have my bachelor's of theology.
02:09 --> 02:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Did a huge time at Hillsong before slowly deconstructing.
02:14 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're here.
02:16 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And now I recently just released my first short film at it.
02:20 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually called deconstruction.
02:22 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But this is actually really full circle moment for me because the pebble that started the landslide was this podcast.
02:31 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_00]: That's wild.
02:32 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I am honored and that's awesome.
02:35 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_00]: That's such a cool thing.
02:36 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
02:37 --> 02:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk to, you know, you mentioned Hillsong and obviously Hillsong is based out of Australia.
02:41 --> 02:46 [SPEAKER_00]: So how did you find yourself drawn to Hillsong and then how'd you end up in Australia?
02:47 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I grew up very Christian, non-denominational, so the rock and roll baptists, and you know, raised in the faith, Hillsong was pretty much a household name.
03:00 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_03]: They really had the chokehold on Christian music.
03:04 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was also a musician and the
03:06 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_03]: the youth band and you know we'd always play Hillsong songs.
03:10 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like the hip cool church that everybody wanted to be like and I was always into film and one day I came downstairs and my mom was actually watching the Hillsong channel and they actually had a program that was called Hillsong the college experience and I kind of sat down with her and was like oh this is interesting.
03:31 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know they had a college
03:33 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I ended up going online and digging a little bed, and I saw there this really fantastic film and TV program.
03:40 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, wow, like, that's just amazing.
03:44 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I just really feel called, and it was also in Australia.
03:47 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, that's nice.
03:49 --> 03:53 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a perk and so I just kind of got really fired up about it.
03:53 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_03]: I was able to convince my parents through God's calling on my life to let me at eighteen years old fly across the world and start a new life in Sydney and that's pretty much what I did.
04:07 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: That's wild.
04:08 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk a little bit about it.
04:10 --> 04:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You go to that by the way, I didn't even know Hillsong had their own college.
04:14 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not entirely surprised, but talk a little bit about how what was it like studying both film and theology at Hillsong College and how did those two disciplines sort of intersect in that environment?
04:24 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_03]: It was kind of funny because first, you know, in America, you'll have a college, maybe it's like a private Christian college and it's like, you go to study your degree, but it's not like you're taking theology classes.
04:37 --> 04:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I ended up getting there and I was like, oh, so I'm half of my classes are film and TV and then half of them are biblical studies.
04:47 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh, and ministry.
04:48 --> 04:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, oh, well, I guess I have to learn how to, you know, work in ministry as well.
04:53 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty much how the college was structured is it was really a pipeline to get kids in there, kind of train them and mold them.
05:04 --> 05:19 [SPEAKER_03]: to be exactly the type of leader they want and essentially work your way up through it and they dangle opportunities in front of you to end up working with them at some point in whatever kind of degree you're getting in.
05:19 --> 05:24 [SPEAKER_03]: So for me what they would be like one day you could work at the channel.
05:25 --> 05:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Or, you know, working, you know, with Bryan Houston and doing our film in media, and then for maybe a music student or a pastoral student, it would be like, oh, you could be in one of our bands or you could, you know, lead one of our church plants.
05:40 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So essentially, you kind of went there and right off the bat, you are, we had a lecture.
05:46 --> 05:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It like the first lecture was when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
05:49 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was not referring to Australia.
05:53 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was referring to the culture of Hillsong and essentially had to assimilate into that environment and kind of become the type of leader that they are looking for.
06:05 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's interesting.
06:06 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So really, it wasn't so much like, hey, we're going to try and do to go off in one day make films like, you know, like the film that you made, it's more so like, how do you create media that fits within this corporate machine?
06:19 --> 06:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, definitely.
06:20 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, like they even had it down to a science where they had this whole, they had their own lingo.
06:28 --> 06:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of them was, you know, anointing.
06:32 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And they really put a lot of emphasis.
06:34 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_03]: on anointing and obviously we know that's biblical language for the amount of gods calling you have on your life, but they really kind of manipulated that into also how successful you will be and then they started to use that word with how many years you decided to stay.
06:53 --> 06:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of people did just want to go there for ministry training
06:56 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_03]: take their knowledge back to their home church and then be able to kind of grow.
07:01 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of churches would even pay for, you know, people to go to Hillsong College to learn ministry and then learn the Hillsong way and kind of bring it back.
07:11 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_03]: So that was also an option.
07:12 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_03]: But then once you got there, they're like, well, you know, when you're here for first year, you'll get the first year of knowing team.
07:20 --> 07:24 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you stay for a second year, you get the double of knowing team.
07:24 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you stay for third year, you know, and it kept going, and then if you stayed for degree, the degree of knowing that's the highest of knowing to, you know, and then it, and then they kind of made you feel like, oh, if I leave, like, I'm gonna miss out on, you know, a big plan where God wants to take me and, you know, I won't unlock everything that he could have for me.
07:48 --> 07:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a little toxic.
07:51 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I can only imagine.
07:52 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like Holy Hogwarts, you know?
07:56 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a T-shirt, somebody needs to make.
07:59 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about, I want to go back to this a little bit.
08:02 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned, like, they sort of had their own lingo and sort of their own sort of, you know, I don't know, characteristics that they look for, you know, and that sort of, and they train you in their mold.
08:15 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_00]: What were some of the things that you picked up on early on?
08:17 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_00]: What does that look like?
08:19 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_03]: They had lingo for all of it.
08:22 --> 08:26 [SPEAKER_03]: So essentially, one of them was an honorier leaders.
08:26 --> 08:27 [SPEAKER_03]: That was a huge one.
08:27 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_03]: A.K.A.
08:29 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_03]: kissed their ass.
08:30 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Treat them like a god.
08:31 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like if one of them is like, you know, I came to preach and there's not a water bottle ready for me on the pulpit.
08:38 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
08:39 --> 08:42 [SPEAKER_03]: You'd have five students running to the nearest store and like, yeah.
08:42 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Here's a water, you know, and it was a very, very quickly you realized that leaders came first.
08:51 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_03]: You were to kind of idolize them.
08:53 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Another thing was not stepping out of line, so they kept like almost like a file of you.
09:01 --> 09:08 [SPEAKER_03]: and limited the amount of platform opportunities you could get if you kind of stepped out of line.
09:08 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_03]: So for example, getting to college they had certain rules like girls couldn't be or boys.
09:15 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_03]: You couldn't be in the opposite gender's house past or ten PM and if you were caught like there were these moles called head students.
09:24 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And they were kind of like around college and they would like watch you.
09:28 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you were doing something that was like, like in your first six months, you weren't allowed to date either.
09:33 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_03]: They'd be like, so-and-so is talking, they reported, or if you would go to the pastoral care, which was
09:39 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Hillsong's therapy, essentially.
09:41 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_03]: They'd write everything down.
09:43 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_03]: We also had this that I talked about in, because I'm also in one of the Hillsong documentaries, and one of them was the Red Light Greenlight Test, which essentially was for your working with children's check, which is normal, like for, and that was, you know, ordained by the Australian government, like,
10:03 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_03]: we need to run a background check if you're serving with children.
10:06 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, yeah, duh.
10:08 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_03]: But when we went in, it was not the vibe.
10:12 --> 10:15 [SPEAKER_03]: You, you had the head of pastoral care.
10:15 --> 10:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Very scary woman.
10:16 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And essentially, we're sitting in auditorium.
10:19 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And she starts to talk about how, you know, we're about to go in to get the red light green light test.
10:25 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_03]: This is for your working with children's check, but also
10:28 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_03]: This is about checking your heart and we're going to ask you a bunch of questions and essentially if you lie the Holy Spirit knows and this is your moment to start college off with a clean slate, the best foot forward and now's the time to air everything out.
10:46 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you go in and you sit with a pastor and you essentially tell them everything that that you've done in the past year.
10:53 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you drink?
10:54 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you smoke?
10:54 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you have sex?
10:56 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Did you kiss?
10:57 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_03]: How far did you go?
10:59 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Just do you watch porn?
11:01 --> 11:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Anything.
11:02 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And then they will write it down and either redlight you, which means you can't work with children or greenlight you.
11:10 --> 11:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And they'll keep a file and say the people who had watched porn, they are then have to enroll themselves in an after school class about, you know, being free from porn addiction.
11:21 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, if you've had sex, you know, you have to
11:26 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_03]: do like pre-marriage counseling courses, or what it's, it was crazy, but you started to realize, if I, you know, step out of line, I'm not going to go far.
11:40 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_03]: If I don't become this perfect star student, little Carl Lens, little Carl Lens his wife,
11:48 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, then then I'm not going to go far and that's honestly exactly what happens.
11:55 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you would get these little little Carl lenses running around and it would there was just this fakeness like, oh, give me a break like that was just with everybody on the campus because everybody was trying to get this spotlight and it was quite exhausting.
12:11 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me, have you ever seen the show black mirror?
12:13 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:14 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember that episode where everybody has like their own personal yelp review?
12:18 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:18 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:19 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:20 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:20 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Like a house or whatever and everybody's just fake.
12:23 --> 12:24 [SPEAKER_00]: It's held to each other.
12:24 --> 12:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:25 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And you get five stars so they can get a house or get a car or whatever.
12:28 --> 12:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly, exactly that.
12:32 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_03]: But funny enough, the TV students were more of the black sheep of the college because there was less like opportunities to really dangle.
12:41 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you really didn't care about getting a job at channel, you're like, ah, I don't care.
12:47 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't care about, you know, and we never had platform opportunities.
12:52 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_03]: We're behind a camera.
12:53 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_03]: What are we gonna do?
12:55 --> 13:19 [SPEAKER_03]: So we kind of started, and that kind of started to lead me a little bit into a direction, because we were kind of always like, oh, these fake kisses, you know, and then I started to, you know, turn my critical thinking on, and that honestly started leaving, because podcasts started coming out, and everybody on campus is like, you gotta start listening to podcasts, you gotta start reading books, you gotta, and I remember asking a friend,
13:19 --> 13:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, you know, do you have any podcast recommendations?
13:24 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what this kid was going through, but he recommended your podcast to me.
13:28 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
13:31 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, this is cool.
13:32 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea what deconstruction was.
13:35 --> 13:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Then I understand it.
13:36 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And in my first, I think the first episode I listened to was, and this is twenty-eighteen.
13:41 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_03]: It was Linda K. Klein, making free from sexual shame.
13:46 --> 13:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the first time.
13:48 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe what I was listening to.
13:52 --> 13:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, whoa, I was, because similarly, a lot of women growing up in the church,
13:58 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_03]: do kind of experienced some form of extreme purity culture or just sexual assault or, you know, the line is blurry.
14:09 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of grooming for young girls.
14:12 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So just listening to that episode was mind blowing and and and also just kept going through.
14:20 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I think another one was like the evolution of Satan.
14:22 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, what?
14:25 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_00]: That was one of my favorites.
14:27 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_03]: It was so good, but it was the first time because being raised, I was not raised in a very educated environment where you are really with a critical lens digging and taking apart the Bible, looking at a like a socio-historical lens looking
14:46 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_03]: at language, the evolution of Hebrew to Greek to translation.
14:51 --> 14:52 [SPEAKER_03]: It was, that was, what was that?
14:53 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I, it was like brand new information to me.
14:56 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, the nostic, I was like, what?
15:00 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Literally, I'm blowing.
15:02 --> 15:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, and then that was like, oh my god.
15:05 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the next day I go and I sit in a lecture and one of my teachers starts preaching about how hot is his modest.
15:13 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And then this was right after I listened to that episode.
15:16 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, no way.
15:19 --> 15:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, this is messed up.
15:22 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And I ended up sending her along email.
15:24 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And she sends back such a snarky response to me.
15:27 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I met no harm by it.
15:29 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But I was just pointing out.
15:31 --> 15:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, we need to stop defining girls by other sexuality, because even when you are lumping in a modesty and purity with being hot,
15:41 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_03]: It's still sexualization.
15:43 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_03]: You're still for me to be desirable, you know, then I have to be this way.
15:49 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was, I kind of go into that.
15:51 --> 15:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And she was like, that's very interesting.
15:53 --> 15:57 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think your point is extremely unbiblical.
15:57 --> 16:00 [SPEAKER_03]: However, I'm not going to get involved in disputing this.
16:00 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And people will believe what they want.
16:02 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm living my best life for Christ.
16:04 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm a modest woman, not a perfect one.
16:06 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_03]: And I
16:08 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_03]: kind of defensive a little bit like so defensive and I was like, Oh, you know, and it was just kind of a woman I looked up to in the church.
16:15 --> 16:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I was like, Hey, you know, I wasn't trying to, you know, tear you down or anything.
16:22 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted to have an open conversation and if you think I'm
16:26 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_03]: completely unbiblical in my reasoning then then I want to know why and like please please help me like understand she just sent me like a bunch of books about you know a bunch of books written by old men about how women you know need to be modest over like then yeah yeah
16:46 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the spiral.
16:48 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's got to be the most frustrating part.
16:50 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, obviously I have no idea what it's like to grow up as young woman, but I've seen what it's done to the people around me.
16:56 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
16:57 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the folks who like sort of carry these views, like they're very anti discussion, it seems, and like they don't even want to.
17:06 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_00]: have a discussion about it.
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, and they accuse you of not taking the Bible seriously.
17:11 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, no, no, I'm diving very deep into the Bible.
17:14 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
17:14 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I do this conclusion.
17:16 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to talk about it.
17:17 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And they just want to shut down the conversation.
17:20 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
17:20 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, she recommends these.
17:22 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what pushed me because I started spiraling.
17:26 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I continue to listen and I was like oh my god, I don't think what I it's like my worldview started to crack a little bit and so then I was like you know what I'm going to I'm gonna go into degree.
17:39 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going into degree.
17:40 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to
17:41 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Dig, as far as I can, and get these questions that I'm wrestling with, and get some answers to them, and in role.
17:49 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And thankfully, although the film and TV program, I completed it, those weren't accredited.
17:56 --> 18:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Those were very much just kind of under the table, ministry, learning, but in order for you to actually get your bachelor's or your master's, you had to be
18:08 --> 18:11 [SPEAKER_03]: in conjunction with the Australian Board of Education.
18:12 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you had to have meet their curriculum standards.
18:17 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what Hillsong ended up doing is they paired with an actual college and then just had their campus and the teachers would come to campus and teach in the Hillsong facilities.
18:31 --> 18:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And so now I'm for the first time I'm learning not only a very more educated view of the Bible, but it's not has no fingerprints of Hillsong really.
18:44 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_03]: At some of the teachers did still go to Hillsong, but
18:48 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_03]: They were highly educated, and they come to find out later were constantly pushing against Hillsong to not have their influence at all in the curriculum.
18:58 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was a whole thing.
19:00 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_03]: They all ended up like when the Carl Lynch thing broke, all the degree teachers walked out and of the college.
19:07 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And no, it was pretty, I'm so close with a view of them to be honest.
19:11 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I didn't hear that part.
19:14 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, there's a lot under the table that, you know, a lot of staff walking out, a lot of people who were had been upset for a long time, but we're sticking around because of the students and yeah, a lot kind of started to crumble with that.
19:29 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's very interesting.
19:30 --> 19:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I've always been kind of fascinated by that because, you know, it was born and raised like a good little Lutheran boy, you know, and they're like progressive branch of Lutheran.
19:39 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I like, I remember as a kid, because my dad, it was the second career for him.
19:45 --> 19:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Going to seminary and I remember wandering around the halls of the seminary and everything.
19:49 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a four year degree program.
19:52 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I had his bachelor's was a teacher beforehand and then had to go through this intense for your program.
19:57 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe one year of which was an internship and doing them doing the spoiled fruit podcast, I interviewed my local pastor and I said, hey, tell me more about the process that you go through to become an ordained minister and it was even more intense than I remembered.
20:15 --> 20:33 [SPEAKER_00]: you learn a lot of things and the thing that that my pastor pastor dug pointed out that I thought was really interesting is he's like yeah of course you take your your church history courses and you know your your new testament all testament courses and stuff like that but they also know they're preparing you to lead a church
20:33 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they also have you take like counseling courses.
20:36 --> 20:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you're giving pastoral care.
20:40 --> 20:46 [SPEAKER_00]: What you're talking about, but you also know where the cutoff point is where you're like, all right, I'm not a trained license therapist.
20:46 --> 20:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly where we got to refer you out.
20:49 --> 20:56 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, among other things, in of course, there's a background check, but there's also there was a mental health assessment that they did.
20:57 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And then in addition, right?
20:59 --> 21:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, ooh, and then in addition to that, there's a panel that you meet with throughout.
21:05 --> 21:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's different steps along the way where somebody can always say, this person's not fit to lead a church.
21:12 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And those things, those checkpoints just don't exist in the evangelical world as so far as I can.
21:17 --> 21:17 [SPEAKER_00]: No way.
21:18 --> 21:18 [SPEAKER_03]: No.
21:18 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you had panels, but that was the thing with Hillsong.
21:23 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It really operated and money.
21:27 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_03]: money money money money money money and it wasn't like oh we know I don't know if this guy is fit anymore it's like oh he's bringing in the numbers you know like get this guy get this guy a church plant get him on the stage right now and it was all about money and it wasn't until going to that was probably one of the first red flags obviously the whole platform opportunities and the kissing that was one thing
21:53 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_03]: But from just a church standpoint, even outside of the college, the money I always thought was interesting because just upon going there, you know, even my brother, when he went to college, his local church, like they would host nights for the college students where they would cook the meals and they would provide for them.
22:13 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And there was none of that at Hillsong.
22:15 --> 22:23 [SPEAKER_03]: I remember going to a mixer for the college students like first week, and I like go to pick up a hot dog or whatever.
22:23 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, sorry, you have to pay for that.
22:26 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh, sorry.
22:31 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_03]: ever since that it was like they would always have food after church service you had to pay for everything you had to pay for you wouldn't you know even conferences you would have to pay for special things and we obviously got to go for free because we were serving but it was like they never really really provided for those in need and they would also host
22:56 --> 22:59 [SPEAKER_03]: at these events twice a year called Heart for the House.
22:59 --> 23:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And those were their big giving events.
23:03 --> 23:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Like a massive fundraiser almost where they would have a PowerPoint and they would tell you about all the stuff they're doing with your tides this year and all the new churches are opening heavy on the churches, not so much heavy on, you know, here's how we're helping the community.
23:22 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the first time
23:25 --> 23:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I really felt so guilty about giving money because essentially how they went about heart for the house was essentially the whole like being a cheerful giver.
23:39 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you aren't in a place where you're stepping out in faith and you're almost putting yourself in a bad financial situation, an unstable financial living situation, then are you really stepping out in faith?
23:54 --> 23:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Like are you really trusting God with your finances?
23:57 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, really think about that.
24:00 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Really, you know, pray about that.
24:02 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I was there sitting, eighteen years old, like just got off the boat.
24:07 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I had saved up like, fifteen hundred dollars, you know, during high school to have, you know, for a little college savings.
24:16 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And at first I was like, oh, I should give, I should give like a hundred dollars.
24:20 --> 24:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And then they just kept going as I kept listening.
24:22 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like,
24:23 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you really stepping out in faith?
24:25 --> 24:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you really trusting God?
24:26 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's prosperity gospel, right?
24:29 --> 24:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Like are you really trusting God and allowing him to provide for you?
24:34 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And and then I was like, you know, maybe I should give more maybe five hundred like half half or like, you know, my savings six hundred.
24:43 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, oh, like, but I'm not even, am I really putting myself in a non-stable situation?
24:49 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I ended up giving everything.
24:51 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything.
24:52 --> 24:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was, it was even crazy because there was a, one of the preachers.
24:57 --> 25:01 [SPEAKER_03]: He was talking about kingdom builders and giving money.
25:01 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was like, when it comes to kingdom builders, there's a simple decision to be made where either going to trust God or not.
25:08 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And when you're not trusting God, you're allowing the devil to wreak havoc in your life.
25:13 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_03]: That was preached on the main stage.
25:16 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_03]: That was preached on the main stage, Hel Song, which is like ten thousand attendants.
25:23 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like horrified.
25:24 --> 25:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh my God, I need to step out and fade.
25:27 --> 25:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there was that aspect.
25:29 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But then they also had this program called Kingdom Builders, which is if you gave five thousand or more in a certain amount of year, you're classified as a Kingdom Builder.
25:39 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And these were the financial leaders of Hillsong.
25:43 --> 25:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And they would have special privileges.
25:45 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_03]: They had special seating.
25:46 --> 25:50 [SPEAKER_03]: They would go on special retreats with Brian special lunches.
25:50 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_03]: They would go to Hunter Valley, which is literally like Napa Valley in Sydney is a whole wine country.
25:57 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And they would just be at her treat and drink wine.
26:00 --> 26:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And these were like the rich, you rich.
26:03 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, the more you gave them more
26:05 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_03]: in the inner circle, you also became.
26:08 --> 26:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was, yeah, that was a lot of hill songs.
26:11 --> 26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of seven of my next question, which is, did you ever get a sense for where all this money was going essentially?
26:18 --> 26:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Every once in a while, like for the heart for the houses, they would tell you, and you'd even get a little pamphlet, and it would break down where all the money is going to.
26:27 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: But it wasn't until I started to really move up in the church that I realized real fast.
26:33 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And also,
26:34 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_03]: just kind of what they started aware on platform.
26:37 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, okay, is my money really, you know, going to something good.
26:44 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And my fiance, believe it or not, he was also pretty high up as well.
26:49 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_03]: He was a
26:50 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_03]: on the personal celebrity pastor drivers team.
26:54 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_03]: So he was a personal chauffeur for the celebrity pastors or aka celebrities that sometimes attended the church.
27:02 --> 27:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was on call, twenty four seven, but he also was interning with one of like the financial people and he got to see like what the credit cards and what they were spending on.
27:14 --> 27:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, luxury lunches at the lake, luxury clothing,
27:20 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you name it and it was like really really taken it back by seeing just how often the company card not even a personal card like the company card was being used on such fine fine expenses and and that was crazy and I became I kind of worked my way up
27:41 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And became one of the personal hair and makeup artists for the celebrity pastors lounge.
27:48 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I was in there.
27:49 --> 27:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I did Carl.
27:50 --> 27:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is makeup for conference.
27:52 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_03]: I would do Brian's makeup, Bobby, and was in the room for a lot of their conversations.
27:59 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was like coming in.
28:00 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_03]: with their Louie Vs and talking about brands, talking about the work that they were getting done.
28:07 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was just, I was like, this is insane.
28:11 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_03]: They're talking about the worth that they are wanting to get done.
28:14 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And then step in on the stage for color, the women's conference, and preaching about how perfect and beautiful you are, and you don't need to do it.
28:21 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I was just like, what is going on?
28:25 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, little strange dual life happening there, you know.
28:30 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, totally.
28:31 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a complete, the veil was, you know, raised from my eyes.
28:35 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm seeing the backstage, what's really going on.
28:39 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just, and that was also a moment that was like, okay, this just isn't right.
28:46 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_03]: This is why are we treating, this is church.
28:49 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_03]: This is literally church.
28:52 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Why do we have, you know, reserved seating and chauffeurs and makeup artists and in personal assistance?
29:01 --> 29:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just why?
29:02 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Why, you know?
29:04 --> 29:10 [SPEAKER_03]: But they really believed that they were celebrities and that they deserved this.
29:10 --> 29:12 [SPEAKER_03]: This was God's promise to them.
29:12 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_03]: That's part of the prosperity gospel that they would preach.
29:15 --> 29:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's also what hooked people in because it's like, well, if you want to be like Carl one day and you want to be like me one day and God is blessing us so much because of
29:24 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_03]: the hard work we've put in then you have to work your way up the ladder and do the refresh team which is essentially cleaning the church bathrooms and taking out the trash or there's a lot of you could get you know a bad serving position if you got allocated you just unlucky
29:43 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you know, what, what a great way to run this multimillion dollar operation where you've essentially got free labor and you've got also a ton of people who are feeding their financial.
29:55 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
29:57 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Feeding money into this into this machine.
30:00 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
30:01 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously had no problems spending.
30:03 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_03]: No, not at all.
30:04 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_03]: It really was, um, that's, and that's what I started to also realize.
30:09 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm literally paying them for them to use me for free labor.
30:14 --> 30:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm working my ass off.
30:17 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_03]: There were some classes where, like, I loved some of our teachers.
30:21 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_03]: I, I feel like they were manipulated similarly, but sometimes our teacher would just let us, if they'd be like, you know what?
30:27 --> 30:31 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's just a Holy Spirit day and maybe you just need it.
30:31 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_03]: We need to just sit and if that means sleeping and taking a nap or praying, like maybe just take this class period to do that.
30:39 --> 30:41 [SPEAKER_03]: We all just took naps under on the floor.
30:42 --> 30:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Like literally, like, not using that.
30:45 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_00]: The Holy Spirit is telling me to take a nap now.
30:49 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Like man.
30:50 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And we were very, very overworked, very overworked.
30:55 --> 30:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And everybody was at the on the verge of burnout.
30:58 --> 31:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And they even had phrases coined for it to keep us going because burnout was such a common thing.
31:05 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the phrases that were drilled into us was, you're just growing your capacity.
31:10 --> 31:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So you're being overworked and we know you're burnt out, but that's because God has so much more for you.
31:16 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And right now, you need to grow your capacity.
31:19 --> 31:47 [SPEAKER_03]: to be able to handle what's to come and then there's another one called do you believe we get to do this so you are serving a super shitty position because some people like luckily because I was TV and there weren't a lot of us I was allocated to TV serving positions you know I was even you know privileged enough to be able to work in channel as an intern but some people were not and
31:47 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_03]: They were doing refresh.
31:49 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_03]: They were cleaning bathrooms.
31:50 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_03]: They were, you know, blowing leaves or stacking chairs, setting things up like they didn't get a glamour serving.
31:58 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_03]: So they drilled it into us.
31:59 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you believe we get to do this?
32:01 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when you're doing something that sucks and you're burnt out, you, you know, flip the perspective and it's like, oh, no, but like we get to do this for God.
32:11 --> 32:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And our security and our identity isn't God, not your job.
32:15 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, should have been like, I want to see Brad Houston come scrubbetoylet, you know, yeah, get this man in here.
32:21 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my goodness.
32:22 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about like, what was, what was sort of the moment where you're like, I can't, I can't do this anymore.
32:29 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not sustainable.
32:30 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I think as any person who's somewhat in a cult, it takes a while for you to really start to get reprogrammed.
32:41 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And for a lot of it, you're kind of in a limbo space where I do believe this.
32:48 --> 32:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I do kind of in your kind of making exceptions.
32:52 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And for certain things.
32:54 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_03]: But it wasn't until degree.
32:56 --> 32:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, OK, and then COVID hit.
32:59 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And once COVID hit, we were quarantined.
33:02 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_03]: So I wasn't going to church.
33:04 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I was now kind of taking a step back from that environment and that atmosphere.
33:09 --> 33:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I ended up going home into America.
33:13 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And I got locked out of the country.
33:15 --> 33:17 [SPEAKER_03]: And I had to finish my degree online.
33:17 --> 33:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So that was then
33:19 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_03]: a full separation from that environment altogether because I was still working for Laura Togs.
33:25 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I was doing videography work for her and I was on payroll and now it's like I don't work for them.
33:34 --> 33:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't go to the church.
33:36 --> 33:42 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not even really at any small group and I'm just finishing my degree which
33:42 --> 33:49 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it is still, you know, very, you know, Christian theology based, but it didn't have a lot of ties to Hillsong.
33:49 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So I remember my last semester and then boom, the Carl Lens thing breaks.
33:55 --> 34:03 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was like, I think the final straw for me and my fiance, because he, he was in this air, you're going to get a kick out of this.
34:04 --> 34:05 [SPEAKER_03]: He was in this thing called
34:06 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_03]: the blessed house.
34:07 --> 34:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And essentially in Hillsong instead of having like dorms, they had like houses in in little neighborhoods that they literally like purchased and rented for the kids, but the kids would obviously pay rent for living there.
34:25 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So instead of dorms, we were putting houses.
34:28 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And there was one house that was Carl Lens's house when he attended Hillsong College.
34:34 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_03]: because he did.
34:34 --> 34:50 [SPEAKER_03]: He, you know, had his Virginia Beach college, but just like I explained earlier, his church sent him the Hillsong to learn ministry, and he was a rising star, and Hillsong said he, you are coming with us.
34:52 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_03]: So he had, you know, his house and it became the blast house because it was the one he lived in.
34:59 --> 35:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And then anybody who attended or like lived in that house was essentially vetted and you only live there if you were seen to be a rising star.
35:09 --> 35:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're on your way to pastoring and being a head pastor of a new church plan.
35:15 --> 35:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And so my fiance was in that house.
35:19 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was given the opportunity after he finished his degree to then head Hillsong Kansas City.
35:28 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was just really wild.
35:31 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_03]: They weren't allowed to have girls over unless they were engaged.
35:34 --> 35:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And I could get in all of that.
35:36 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But it really just kind of
35:39 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_03]: reaffirms this this idolization of these pastors and it's like that's who you want to be you want to be correlates you want to have the status and and it was it was pretty much like yes you want to be a minister you want to be minister but we really know you want to be a celebrity you know and that was kind of the vibe
36:07 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So he have a body or even a neck If he does, does he know that I'm alive He's got it, even here But she kept it, I doubt she kept it, I feel something to
36:37 --> 36:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll survive.
36:40 --> 36:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So take a breath, breathe it in.
36:46 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_02]: The mystery that is there's a universe we don't know.
37:10 --> 37:30 [SPEAKER_01]: If God has a face, His face must look like gold Did God kill his kin?
37:32 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
37:37 --> 37:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we made a God that looks like us Does God know my name?
37:54 --> 37:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain?
38:00 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Even so, does that mean it's not real?
38:06 --> 38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery lies there.
38:25 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, her face must look like you
38:52 --> 39:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Your face like a teenager And I'm at a mild red A rust and it's husband God send their children face like a Kim A dead or tyrant A little seaborn with an extra chromosome
39:14 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Powerful with legs, he can't move by himself.
39:19 --> 39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: A girl born a Daniel, who now is then well, a pillaging evening.
39:27 --> 39:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Even white guys named I. If you have a heartbeat, you are the
39:42 --> 39:54 [UNKNOWN]: To take a breath, breathe a mystery that is there
40:21 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_01]: If God has a face, the face must look If God has a face, the face must look If God has a face, the face must look If God has a face, the face must look