Ep. 168 - Dr. Mohammad Khalil ”Understanding Islam” pt. 2

[00:00:00] Hi, my name is Peter and I'm a prophet in the new novel American Prophet. I was the one who dreamed about the natural disaster just before it happened, oh and the pandemic, and that crazy election. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bragging.

[00:00:17] It's not like I asked for the job. Actually no one would ask for this job. At least half the people will hate whatever I say and almost everyone thinks I'm a little crazy. Getting a date is next to impossible.

[00:00:33] I've got a radio host who is making up conspiracies about me, a dude actually shooting at me, and an unhinged president threatening me. But the job isn't all that bad. I've gotten to see the country and meet some really interesting people and hopefully do

[00:00:50] some good along the way. You can find my story on Amazon, Audible or iTunes. Just look for American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer. Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer?

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[00:01:37] Kostenlos testen und dein Business der Welt präsentieren. Shopify.de-try besuchen. Einfach Shopify.de-try eingeben und loslegen. Made for training. Dein Online-Shop. Welcome to the Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host John Williamson and we're back with part two of my conversation with

[00:02:17] Dr. Muhammad Khalil, Professor of Religious Studies and Director of the Muslim Studies Program and Adjunct Professor in the College of Law at Michigan State University. Hopefully you enjoyed the first part. If you haven't listened to it yet, press pause, go back and listen to that part first

[00:02:33] and then come back and listen to this part. If you've already listened to the first part, then welcome to part two. Before we get into it, don't forget if you enjoy what we're doing here to give us a nice five-star rating review and share with a friend.

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[00:03:06] For links to our social media, blog, web store, Patreon and our entire back catalog of episodes that you can stream for free from the website. So welcome back to part two. This will conclude our two-episode series with Dr. Khalil and then we'll be back next

[00:03:20] week with an all new guest. But until then, enjoy and without further ado, here is part two with Dr. Muhammad Khalil. This is not to deny the role of religion in what happened on 9-11. Bin Laden, I believe, did believe in religion, did believe in a particular interpretation

[00:03:56] of Islam. I believe that. What I would also say though is that it was not the Islam, the historical Islam or the prevailing interpretation or understanding of Islam today. It was a kind of aberrant, strange Islam predicated on, well just to give the example I mentioned

[00:04:21] earlier, misinformation, twisting of the sources. So there is a religious component, it's just not a religion that's representative of the vast majority of Muslims. That's a really good answer. That's fascinating too, the fact that there is a distinction between their religious beliefs,

[00:04:43] the folks who supported it, distinction between their religious beliefs and sort of their personal political beliefs. It was more, you know, the folks who supported it were more inclined to lean into the sort of the political, socioeconomic beliefs there versus what they actually believe from a religious standpoint.

[00:05:05] So that's really interesting. That's right. Actually, I have a Christian friend who taught in Indonesia for a few years after 9-11 and I remember he mentioned that even some of the Indonesian Christians that he knew would justify 9-11 for political reasons.

[00:05:22] So it's interesting because I think this is important to keep in mind is that yes, Bin Laden claimed to have been motivated by religion but also when you look at the response and the people who accept what happened, sometimes it's more because of anti-American sentiments

[00:05:39] and political reasons rather than let's say their reading of the Quran. Yeah, that's really interesting. Definitely I think this is an interesting thread to continue going down but before we do that I think it's probably important also to note that I'm sure this is the case with

[00:05:57] Islam as it is with Christianity. We have obviously tens of thousands at least in North America, different sort of interpretations of Christianity. We have over I think last I looked it was like 45, 48,000 different denominations meaning variations of the interpretation of what Christianity should be.

[00:06:19] I'm assuming that it's similar within Islam as well. There's probably different interpretations and schools of thought as well. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes I'll tell my students maybe facetiously that if there are two billion Muslims, there are two billion interpretations of Islam.

[00:06:36] And actually I tell my students, I want you to be frustrated by the end of the semester because we like to simplify. We like to say okay well Muslims they believe this and the reality is that Muslims are very, very diverse much like Christians are.

[00:06:54] And so you will find, I mean first of all of course you have the big two Sunnis and Shiites or Shiites but then you also have by the way other groups like Ibadis and others. But even within these groups so much diversity.

[00:07:09] I mean among the Shiite or the Shiites you have the Twelvers, the Seveners or Ismailis, the Zaidis and within these groups you have a lot of division. You have the Twelver Shiites in Iran who believe in the authority of the supreme ruler of Iran

[00:07:30] and others who disagree and they don't believe in it. And there's still Twelver Shiites or Shiites. You have the Sunnis, you have different schools of thought. There are four big ones but that pertains to law.

[00:07:46] In theology you have at least three schools of thought, three big schools of thought. And then within these schools so much diversity. And then of course you have modernist movements and so there is an incredible amount of diversity among Muslims.

[00:08:00] And there are some things though that unite Muslims. For example, if I were to summarize what unites Muslims, belief in one God, one supreme being, that's I think pretty safe to say.

[00:08:17] The idea of worshipping God, the idea of giving to those in need, that's a big thing that's stressed in the Qur'an, a big theme in the Qur'an. And avoiding harming others, not stealing, not murdering, not lying, not you know...

[00:08:41] I mean not harming those who are traveling and so on and so forth. So there are some things that unite Muslims generally but then once you get into the questions, the details, like what does it mean to pray? How often do you pray?

[00:08:58] Most Muslims who are practicing Muslims will say five times a day or five prayers a day. And then some will say three times, five prayers but in three times of the day. And then some will say no, three prayers a day.

[00:09:11] And some will say no, two prayers a day or just one prayer a day. Or maybe I don't have to pray this particular way as long as I'm kind of thinking of God.

[00:09:18] I mean you might get some of that but again the majority will say probably five prayers a day. So yeah, long story short, a lot of diversity. I think that's important to note.

[00:09:30] I think you know folks who are listening who come from sort of a Christian background full well know that within Christianity we are constantly arguing about various details within our streams of thought. And that's been going on for you know generations and generations. So what are some...

[00:09:49] And sometimes these intra-religious fights can be more intense than the inter-religious disputes. Yeah, absolutely. So tell me, you know talk about a little bit more about some of the misconceptions that as you kind of dove into this new career to you know this kind of journey of exploration

[00:10:10] and understanding. Yes. What are some of the other things that you discovered maybe that you weren't aware of before? Yeah, well so when I tell... When I discuss misconceptions I usually mention violence and gender. Yes. And when it comes to gender there are many, many, many misconceptions.

[00:10:31] And you know again I think we have to... The key thing to keep in mind is diversity. I think that's I think the number one thing to keep in mind. So when we think about for example dress, how does a Muslim dress?

[00:10:45] Well there are so many ways that Muslims dress. And I will say that most Muslims who are practicing Muslims do have a notion of modesty. That one should be modest in their dress regardless of gender. And so there is a notion of modesty. Now how does...

[00:11:08] What does that look like? Is it a woman wearing hijab covering her hair and neck usually? Is it a man wearing some kind of a cap on his head or maybe a turban?

[00:11:23] Or and then beyond that I mean I'm just talking about headgear here but even just the rest of... Sometimes you'll see you could have somebody in shorts and tank top or whatever and then somebody is fully covered. And so you'll see a lot of different things there.

[00:11:42] And so dress is an area where we see a lot of diversity. But there are many other issues pertaining to gender. For example, let's think about a marriage where you have a husband and a wife.

[00:12:01] And when we think about gender norms and rules, there is this conception of let's say a man who works outside the home, comes home and the woman is... The wife in this case is cooking and preparing and cleaning and so on. You get these kinds of narratives.

[00:12:22] But when you actually go and look at Muslim majority countries, you see that this narrative is often not what's occurring. So in many cases you'll have women who are working, in many cases high positions.

[00:12:39] In fact I'll just mention here that there actually have been quite a few Muslim women heads of state while we still wait to see if America will have a woman head of state. So there have been numerous... And Bangladesh has had two. So I mean...

[00:12:54] And Bangladesh is the country with the fourth largest Muslim population. You just go down the list. I mean, actually if you just type in... If you Google Muslim women heads of state, you'll see a really impressive list actually.

[00:13:06] So and then you have when it comes to the men or the husbands, and again a kind of a sort of a traditional family model, you will see often men who are doing... Who are cooking and cleaning and so on.

[00:13:21] And in so doing, they're actually following the example of Muhammad because there is a well-known hadith that speaks of Muhammad cooking and sewing. And there's a what hadith or report that says that when he was at home, he only served his family.

[00:13:40] So these kinds of things are important because even if that's not common in some contexts, it is common in others. And people will point to religious sources even to justify what they're doing in challenging maybe certain gender norms. So yeah, that's another area.

[00:14:05] And there's actually one more area, but I'll just pause here in case you had any follow-up questions about gender. No, I think that was going to be my next one is there's this kind of misconception I think that across the board...

[00:14:19] And of course we like to simplify everything as human beings and boil things down. That should allow for nuance, and yet we try to simplify it and paint broad brushstrokes. And so there's this misnomer out there that, well, in Islam, women are...

[00:14:37] They're in a lowly position and that sort of thing. And I think that's fascinating that... And again, I love that example because I've heard that before that we're still waiting on our first female president and yet... That's right. That's right.

[00:14:53] I mean, I want to be very clear here because whenever I do these interviews, I'm always imagining the skeptic in the audience. And so I have to clarify, yeah, there are of course unfortunate examples where you have, for example, women who are repressed. It's true.

[00:15:09] But when you take a step back and you think about the population of Muslims is almost 2 billion, your example is very limited, right? But then there are so many counter examples to that. And that's the point I always like to stress.

[00:15:25] And I want my students to know that... I mean, even if we think about dress codes, okay? Iran was all over the news for requiring the covering of the hair, right? And still it requires this.

[00:15:38] But Iran is really one of only two, maybe three countries that has such a rule. I mean, Afghanistan is the other. Afghanistan actually even goes a step further now and as of recently is also requiring a

[00:15:50] kind of half face veil as well, which is unusual in the history of Afghanistan. But that's something that has happened. So these are really outliers though. The vast majority, even Saudi Arabia right now has no such dress code. And yet many women choose to cover their hair nonetheless.

[00:16:12] I mean, I'll tell you right now, my own mother coming out of Egypt, she was never required to cover her hair. And in fact, her family, some members of her family clearly looked down upon it. And yet she... And these were often male members of the family.

[00:16:29] And yet she, in spite of these men in her life, chose to cover her hair. So we just have to be careful with our assumptions. I think that's the lesson here. Yeah. Talk about some of the other misconceptions that you've...

[00:16:48] Well, the other big one I was going to mention is just the rich history of Muslims right here in America. I think many people have this impression of Muslims being new to the country.

[00:17:02] And the fact of the matter is that Muslims have been here a long, long time. Actually there were enslaved Africans, many of them who are Muslim. What percentage is up for debate? But certainly a significant number.

[00:17:15] And we have accounts, for example, there's a famous one of a scholar named Omar Ibn Said. And we have his autobiography. And he was somebody who was enslaved, brought to America and lived here for a long time.

[00:17:33] And so we have many enslaved Africans who helped build this country. We have, as you get into the 19th century, you begin to see many immigrants already coming to this country. And also converts. There's one individual who's very interesting named Alexander Russell Webb. And he was from Missouri.

[00:17:55] And he was also... So he was a writer, a journalist, but he was also the American consul to the Philippines. And he converts to Islam and he actually has an audience, many people will listen to him, including Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain.

[00:18:16] And in his novel, Tom Sawyer Abroad, not to be confused with the original Tom Sawyer, but Tom Sawyer Abroad, he seems to make an inside joke with Webb by referring to Missouri Muslims or Moslems. Because Webb was from Missouri.

[00:18:35] And so there's a whole reference, there's a whole segment there on Missouri Moslems. So you have Mark Twain making this reference. And then as we get into the... Actually, I'll just even mention back in the 1700s, even in the Revolutionary War,

[00:18:53] if you look at the names of people who fought alongside George Washington, you will see some Muslim names like Bampet Mohammed and Yusuf bin Ali. So even back during the period of the Revolutionary War, we see Muslims are fighting with George Washington.

[00:19:14] And now it could be, I have to be careful here too, I mean, it could be that these were people who converted to Christianity. I don't know, but they had Muslim names at least. Then as we get into... So I mentioned the 19th century.

[00:19:25] As we get into the 20th century, we see all kinds of mosques being built. 1921 Highland Park, Michigan, there's a mosque that's built. It doesn't last very long, but you have a mosque there. Cedar Rapids, Iowa has what is sometimes called the Mother Mosque, which was built in 1934.

[00:19:45] It's the oldest purpose-built mosque that is still in existence today, it's still used today. And it's in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. We have other mosques we hear about in like Ross, North Dakota, and just places you wouldn't maybe expect... I didn't expect.

[00:20:02] And then we also see some prominent converts like Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You know the song that's played at most American weddings probably, Celebration by Kool and the Gang? Yeah. Celebrate good times, come on. So Kool is Muslim. He actually has a Muslim name even, Muhammad.

[00:20:26] And his brother, Ronald Bell, he also converted to Islam, has a Muslim name. He's the one who wrote the song. He began writing the song. And this is the thing that I just find absolutely shocking.

[00:20:41] What got him thinking about the song was reading the Quran, reading the Islamic holy book. And by the way, if you don't believe me, I get it. I did not believe this at all until I looked it up.

[00:20:53] And so I would encourage folks to go look up Celebration and look at the origin story of Celebration. Because Ronald Bell says he's reading a translation of the Quran, and there's a verse that talks about the angels celebrating Adam.

[00:21:10] And that's what led him to the line, everyone around the world, come on. And I'm a bad singer. But that's what got him thinking about it. And then what's interesting is, now the song of course took another direction as he continued writing it.

[00:21:27] But I just find it so interesting that it began with him reading a translation of the Quran, because that's the last thing I expected to be the source for that song. So there's so much there that many people don't even realize.

[00:21:41] And the reason this is so important is that if you're not aware of that history, not you specifically, but if people are not aware of that history, then it's very easy to demonize Muslims. And I'll give you a great example.

[00:21:56] In 2017 at Rutgers University, I think the campus in New Brunswick and some other college campuses, there was a poster developed by a white supremacist group called either America Vanguard or Vanguard America. And the poster, the message was, imagine a Muslim free America.

[00:22:24] And it had a picture of the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center. And at first blush, it seems very compelling. Like imagine no Muslims, we'd still have the Twin Towers, the World Trade Center, everything would be great. But what's interesting is, I mean, obviously this demonstrates bigotry.

[00:22:45] But it also demonstrates profound ignorance. Ignorance because first of all, it's ignoring the role that Muslims have played historically, whether the enslaved African Muslims or others. But it even demonstrates ignorance about the World Trade Center itself.

[00:23:04] I'm not going to tell you that it was a Muslim who actually designed the World Trade Center. It was not. It was not. It was, I will say it was a Japanese American. And I'll mention that because it was posted by a white supremacist group.

[00:23:16] But it was designed by a Japanese American. But I will say this, the design was based on or utilized something called tubed frame design. And who, pray tell, came up with tubed frame design? A Muslim named Fazlur Rahman Khan, who was originally from Bangladesh.

[00:23:42] He came to the U.S., studied at the University of Illinois, became known as the Einstein of structural engineering. And in addition to coming up with tubed frame design, he did actually design the Sears Tower

[00:23:56] or Willis Tower, which was the tallest building in the world for a while, and also the John Hancock Center. And for people performing the pilgrimage to Mecca, he designed the Hajj Terminal at the Jeddah Airport. So pretty Muslimy. Yeah, no kidding.

[00:24:15] Yeah, so imagine these people who came up with this poster, obviously they had no idea about any of this. But I also think it's important to reflect and think about this. I think if these people who made the poster had had meaningful interactions with Muslims,

[00:24:36] meaningful interactions, not just you see somebody talk, but a meaningful interaction, they would definitely not be doing this. They would definitely not be doing this. Because when you have meaningful interactions with people, it's very easy to see how similar we are. We're very similar.

[00:24:58] And this is something I can appreciate as someone who was raised as a Muslim with most of my classmates being Christian and other things. It's easy for me to appreciate that, but maybe it's not easy for others to appreciate that.

[00:25:13] And that's why I think it's important to just have meaningful interactions with people, to see our shared humanity. Because we really are more similar than we are different. Hi, my name is Peter and I'm a prophet in the new novel, American Prophet.

[00:25:31] I was the one who dreamed about the natural disaster just before it happened. Oh, and the pandemic and that crazy election. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bragging. It's not like I asked for the job. Actually no one would ask for this job.

[00:25:47] At least half the people will hate whatever I say and almost everyone thinks I'm a little crazy. Getting a date is next to impossible. I've got a radio host who is making up conspiracies about me, a dude actually shooting at me, and an unhinged president threatening me.

[00:26:07] But the job isn't all that bad. I've gotten to see the country and meet some really interesting people and hopefully do some good along the way. You can find my story on Amazon, Audible or iTunes. Just look for American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.

[00:26:23] That's American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.

[00:27:09] Yeah, I could not agree more. And I've said something similar in the past. You know, I was having a conversation with someone I went to high school with and it wasn't somebody I was particularly close with, but we happened to end up Facebook friends somehow, someway.

[00:27:36] And we were having a conversation and he had posted something I was irritated about, you know. And I typically don't get into Facebook arguments, but in this instance I had just finished up a graduate school class on world religions

[00:27:50] and I had a little bit more of a base knowledge, I'd like to think, of Islam and he was posting something that was just blatantly wrong. And I called him out on it and we got into this debate on Facebook

[00:28:03] and finally I said, regardless of the points that we're debating here, I said at the very end of the day, ultimately, you know, he still lives in the small town I grew up in,

[00:28:14] surrounded by the same type of people who think the same things, look the same way and do the same things. And I said, I moved. I moved to a larger city. I surrounded myself with people who don't think like me, don't look like me

[00:28:27] and I got to know them and I became friends with them and I love them. And I can't afford to hold that same worldview that maybe I once did. I'd like to think I never did, but point being that you're right.

[00:28:40] I got to know people who weren't like me and realized that we have a ton of common ground and ultimately at the end of the day I'm not interested in holding that worldview anymore. You know, they're my friends and that's all that matters.

[00:28:57] And so I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. Yeah, absolutely. And that whole topic is what really led to my dissertation and my first book. My first book is called Islam and the Fate of Others.

[00:29:10] And what I'm doing in that book is I'm looking at how Muslims, scholars, have historically grappled with the question of non-Muslims, the fate of non-Muslims in the afterlife. And for me, this was always a very troubling issue because I would hear one thing from some teachers.

[00:29:31] I would hear, oh, well, yeah, all non-Muslims go to hell. And I would be like, man, I mean, Tim seems like a good guy. Yeah. You know, and then in contrast, you got Muhammad over here who's doing all kinds of nonsense.

[00:29:48] That guy's going to heaven and this guy's going to hell. So that was something that I really grappled with and struggled with. And so that was and that would also played into the 9-11 discourse, too, right? There's this idea that Muslims, they look down on non-Muslims.

[00:30:04] And so that's what made it so easy to kill so many non-Muslims on 9-11. Never mind the fact that many Muslims were actually killed, too, innocent Muslims who just happened to be working there.

[00:30:14] But in any case, so I began to explore and look at look into this question. And I was surprised to see some of the most famous theologians in the history of Islam speaking of the possibility of non-Muslims going to heaven.

[00:30:31] And I was just shocked because I was like, really, that scholar said this? That was not what I expected at all. I was expecting the exact opposite based on what I was taught. So that's something that goes back to this issue, this idea that we're so similar.

[00:30:51] And if you're born into a particular religious tradition, there's a pretty good chance you're going to continue being in that religious tradition if you are going to continue practicing religion, that you're going to continue in that same tradition.

[00:31:06] There's a pretty good chance. Of course, it's not absolute, but there's a good chance. So how could it be that God, in God's justice and mercy and love, would just send everyone else to hell forever? That was something that was always a challenge.

[00:31:23] And so that's what led me to spend six years on that project, on that book, just to kind of think through some of these things. Yeah, that's remarkable. And we see similar, again, we see similar studies in Christianity.

[00:31:37] You know, multiple different scholars sort of trying to wrestle with, well, is there a way in which non-Christians can also get into heaven? So talk a little bit about that, though, because I think that's probably,

[00:31:51] some people's ears probably perked up in terms of heaven and hell in the afterlife. So what are sort of the beliefs within Islam in terms of what that looks like? Yeah, so, well, there's a prevailing belief in heaven and hell. That is the prevailing belief.

[00:32:06] And also prior to that, a period of judgment, where one's faith and deeds are all considered and measured, so to speak. And I want to be careful here because I think some people have a misconception that

[00:32:22] Muslims are going around counting their deeds as if that's how they get into heaven. And the fact of the matter is that it's more complicated than that. Basically, what one needs to reach heaven is to have faith and to do good. And, but still, you know, things are,

[00:32:47] it ultimately comes down to what kind of person are you becoming? That's maybe the most important thing. And when there are reports where Muhammad, the Prophet, peace be upon him, he's quoted as depicting scenes of sinners who, you know, their whole lives they're sinners.

[00:33:05] But at the end of their lives, they see like a starving dog, a thirsty, starving dog. And so they provide water to the dog and then they pass away.

[00:33:18] And then they go to heaven, actually, because they ended in a state where they had reached a higher state in the end. So it wasn't about weighing their deeds. It was about really more about what kind of person are you becoming in the end?

[00:33:34] And then in contrast, there's a report of someone who is always good, always praying. But in the end of that person's life, they tortured an animal. And then so clearly they had reached a low state right at the end and then they're punished for it in hell.

[00:33:49] But the concept of hell is complicated in Islam because one could spend some time in hell and then leave hell and go to heaven. So hell is not, it's not necessarily always permanent or everlasting.

[00:34:08] So this is now where we get into one of the controversial issues that I discuss in my book. Because there's the prevailing view, the majority of Muslims believe that many people will go to hell, but they'll leave hell and go to heaven.

[00:34:24] But some people will remain in hell forever. That's if you were to do a poll, that's probably what the majority of Muslims would say. That there are some people who will remain in hell forever for the rest of time. But here's what's interesting.

[00:34:42] In doing the research for my book, I found one of the most influential, shall we say conservative scholars, Ibn Taymiyyah of the 14th century, who in the last thing he writes before his pen is confiscated, he was imprisoned.

[00:35:04] The last thing he writes is a treatise in which he argues that one day every single person will leave hell and go to heaven. So hell functions more as a kind of purgatory then.

[00:35:17] And this is a traditionalist scholar who likes to ground all his opinions on early reports of early Muslims and so on. And so to my mind it was remarkable that this scholar of all people, his name is Ibn Taymiyyah, that he would be saying this.

[00:35:35] And what's interesting is that today Ibn Taymiyyah's books are really popular in countries like Saudi Arabia. But what's interesting is that you'll have people now denying that he ever said this. But these are all modern denials. Nobody back then denied it.

[00:35:54] And actually his own student, another famous traditionalist scholar named Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, would quote it and expand on it in three works. And even has a statement like, to paraphrase, that if the light of God shines upon you, you'll see that this makes sense.

[00:36:15] And that's shocking because these are scholars who have a reputation of being pretty conservative and traditionalist. So that was one of the eye-opening discoveries for me. And I remember I presented this at a conference in Jordan in 2005.

[00:36:31] And immediately afterwards, a Christian woman came up to me and said that her priest had told her the same thing, but that it was supposed to be a secret. Like you're not supposed to talk about it. Yeah, of course. Yes.

[00:36:46] So yeah, so that's one of the interesting things. And then the other interesting thing is, OK, well what about non-Muslims? Right. So somebody doesn't believe in Muhammad as a prophet. What happens to that person?

[00:36:59] And you know, the same scholar I just mentioned, Ibn Taymiyyah, he would be kind of strict in this area. He would say, well, if somebody received the revelation, they heard about Muhammad and then they didn't like study and look into it.

[00:37:12] Well, then, yeah, they would be going to hell, according to Ibn Taymiyyah. The same scholar who has this view of everybody leaving hell. But then when you look at other scholars, for example, there's a scholar named al-Ghazali, maybe the most influential theologian in the history of Islam.

[00:37:28] Al-Ghazali, he dies in 1111. So easy to remember. 1111 of the Common Era. Al-Ghazali says that there are different categories of non-Muslims. So he makes distinctions. And he says, actually, most non-Muslims will go to heaven.

[00:37:46] But the ones that will go to hell are the ones who heard about Muhammad and then rejected him, completely rejected him or ignored him.

[00:37:56] But if they at least investigate, maybe they don't convert, but they investigate sincerely and then death overtakes them, then they would also be excused, according to al-Ghazali. Excuse me. Then you have others. I'll mention one more example. You have Ibn al-Arabi, a famous Sufi thinker.

[00:38:19] And Ibn al-Arabi says that it really just comes down to do you see Muhammad as a prophet or not? That's for him the key criterion. So if one does not see Muhammad as a prophet, like sincerely, then they're not to be culpable. They're not culpable for that.

[00:38:37] Excuse me. So, yeah, that's the range of views. It's fascinating. One of the things I want to make sure that we cover today is we haven't really talked about it before.

[00:38:49] It's just the idea of major holidays within religions and obviously Christianity, the big two, Christian or Christmas and Easter. So what are sort of the Islamic kind of equivalence? You know, if you could. Oh, I think your microphone's off.

[00:39:12] There we go. How about now? Yeah, there we go. Yeah, I went on. I began coughing uncontrollably. Anyway, so Islam also has two big ones. The first one is called the Eid al-Fitr. Eid al-Fitr, which means the festival of breaking the fast.

[00:39:31] This is after a month of fasting in the month of Ramadan. So Ramadan is a month in the Islamic calendar. It actually is completely detached from the solar calendar. So Ramadan this year was in mid-March to mid-April, roughly, or late March to late April.

[00:39:55] Next year, early March to early April, somewhere, you know, it shifts about 11 days every year. So after Ramadan, there's this big holiday called Eid al-Fitr.

[00:40:07] And this is a huge, you know, a holiday where people will, first of all, they'll actually get to eat and drink during the day. That's huge because in Ramadan, Muslims abstain from eating and drinking. Those who are able to, I should say.

[00:40:23] If you're able to, you abstain from eating and drinking during the day. And the purpose is to attain God-consciousness, to be thinking about God. So after this month, there's this big holiday. People will usually, if they're practicing Muslims, even if they're not so practicing,

[00:40:44] they'll go to a huge Eid service, prayer service. And sometimes they'll hold it outside of a mosque, maybe in some big venue. For example, here in Lansing, they hold it at the Lansing Center, not the mosque.

[00:40:59] And you'll have thousands of people, people maybe you've never seen before, that you see them now at this event. And the other major holiday is Eid al-Adha, which is the festival of the sacrifice.

[00:41:16] And this overlaps, it takes place about two months and nine to ten days after that first festival I just mentioned. Eid al-Fitr. So Eid al-Adha, they both have the word Eid in them by the way. Eid just means festival or holiday.

[00:41:35] So you have now Eid al-Adha, the festival of sacrifice. This occurs in the 12th month on day 10. And this overlaps with the pilgrimage to Mecca. So during this time, you have people performing the once in a lifetime, if they're able to, pilgrimage to Mecca.

[00:41:56] And the pilgrimage, you know, if you go any time of the year, it's like a lesser pilgrimage. But if you go during this time of the year, that's the greater pilgrimage. That's the Hajj.

[00:42:06] That's what's expected of all able-bodied Muslims who can afford it at least once in their lifetime. And because only maybe, what, three million people go out of two billion. So most Muslims in their lifetime will probably not get a chance to do the Hajj actually.

[00:42:24] But for those who do go, it's often a transformative experience. Not always, but for many. It certainly was for me. Certainly it was for my wife. Transformative experience. And so that overlaps with this festival and the festival of sacrifice. Why is it called sacrifice?

[00:42:42] Well, it alludes to the biblical narrative of Abraham and the sacrifice of his own son. This very disturbing moment where he's told, where he is commanded to sacrifice his own son.

[00:43:02] Now in the Islamic narrative, the Islamic version, the Quran never explicitly says which son is to be sacrificed. Many assume it's Ishmael because later in the same chapter, there's reference to Isaac in a way that makes you think, oh, this is a different son. But it's never explicit.

[00:43:24] So actually there were some early Muslims who thought it was Isaac, just as in the Bible. In any case, in the Quranic version, Abraham has a vision, most say a dream, that he is to sacrifice his own son.

[00:43:38] He goes to his son and he asks him, hey look, I had this vision. What do you think? And his son says, well, if that's what God is commanding you, then I submit. So this is an interesting aspect of the narrative.

[00:43:57] And of course, in the end, the son is not sacrificed. Excuse me. And instead, you have some kind of animal sacrifice instead. So that's something that we'll see during this period as well. That's really neat.

[00:44:12] And again, one of those little references that where we have this sort of intersection between Islam and Christianity. I think that's really neat.

[00:44:24] Yeah. And actually, if I may add, one thing I forgot to mention during the pilgrimage, there are all kinds of things that one does that allude to reports about Abraham and Hagar and Ishmael.

[00:44:39] In fact, the Kaaba in Mecca, that sanctuary, that cubic structure in Mecca, it's usually covered with some kind of black cloth. Although, by the way, historically, the color changed over time. Excuse me. Sorry. Of course, now suddenly I have to cough when I'm doing an interview.

[00:45:05] So what's interesting is that there's this general belief that this site was devoted by Abraham and Ishmael, that there was some kind of holy site established there. Not that the Kaaba we see today was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael, but that there was something there.

[00:45:25] And so that reminds us of Abraham and Ishmael. And then after one goes around the Kaaba seven times as part of the rituals of the pilgrimage, one also walks quickly between two mountains or small hills, we'll say, called Safa and Marwa.

[00:45:46] And in doing this, one is recalling Hagar running between two hills, desperate for water for her son Ishmael. And so you go down the list of rituals, you see, oh, this refers to something Abraham did or Ishmael did or Hagar did.

[00:46:05] Of course, these are things that are not found in the Bible necessarily. Maybe some aspects, but not the whole narrative, not from the Muslim perspective, the whole narrative. Of course, from the Christian perspective, these would be additions to the narrative.

[00:46:18] So, but yeah, that's so that's another interesting thing is that, you know, you're thinking about Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael during the pilgrimage. Oh, that's fascinating. This was a really interesting conversation.

[00:46:33] I know we're running short on time, but if you could leave folks with, I think it'd be kind of neat to tell us what are some of your favorite verses that you find beauty and inspiration in the Quran? I think there'd be a cool way to end.

[00:46:48] Yes, well, there's a verse I want to say in Surah 49, the 49th Surah or chapter.

[00:46:55] But it says that God made us into races and tribes so that you may come to know one another, so that you may come to know one another like God made us have this diversity so that you may come to know one another so that we learn from one another.

[00:47:12] We we exchange information. And I just think that's a very beautiful idea. Oh, man, I love that. That's that's the perfect way to end. Thank you so much. This is absolutely fascinating. And I know the listeners are going to love it.

[00:47:27] You know, I just appreciate you taking some time out of your day to spend with us. It was my pleasure. Thank you for a great interview. I appreciate it. I'm. Is. Even here. Does she care that I doubt does she care that I fear something? We'll survive.

[00:48:13] So take a breath. Is. If God has a face, his face must look like. Did God. Kill is. Did he have to have blood before he would forgive? Maybe we made it. God looks like. Does God is the ache in my soul, just confined to my brain.

[00:49:27] Even so. Does that mean it's not real? So take a breath. Street. If God has a face, her face must like a face like a Tina. And I'm better. Mildred Ross and his husband, Gus and their children. Face like a kid, a Ted or Tyrone.

[00:50:36] Lucy born with an extra chromosome. A Pablo with legs he can't move by himself. A girl born a Daniel who now is Daniel. A bill agent, even white guys named Todd. If you have a heartbeat, you are the face. Take a breath. History that is. You.

[00:51:53] Has a face, a face must look if God has a face, his face must look. If God has a face, the face must be your.