Ep. 176 - Dr. Greg Garrett ”The Gospel According to James Baldwin” pt. 2

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[00:01:09] I'm your host, John Williamson, and we're back with part two of my conversation with Greg Garrett. Hopefully you enjoyed the first part. We continue our conversation surrounding his brand new book, The Gospel According to James Baldwin,

[00:01:23] one of my favorite authors of all time, and we'll be back next week with an all-new guest, but hopefully you enjoy part two in the meanwhile. Before we get to that, if you're new, welcome. We appreciate you listening and supporting the podcast.

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[00:02:57] We just wanted to keep the prices as low as possible. So, if that's something you want, then we can offer it to you. So, check it out. Links are in our link tree and on our website. So, check it out. Anyway, we're back with Dr. Greg Garrett.

[00:03:14] Again, he is a writer, speaker, preacher, musician, and professor. He's a critically acclaimed author of over two dozen books of fiction and nonfiction, including an amazing book that just came out that we discussed again on this interview and the first part last week,

[00:03:29] The Gospel According to James Baldwin. He studied at Oklahoma State University where he got his PhD in English. He then continued his education with pos- oh, that was hard to say. I don't know why. Postdoctoral studies in Holocaust Studies at University of Oregon

[00:03:45] and received his Master's in Divinity from the Episcopal Theological Seminary of the Southwest in Austin, Texas. So, check it out. I really, really had a great time with this conversation. Again, one of my favorite authors of all time is James Baldwin.

[00:04:00] The Fire Next Time is one of the best books I've ever read. It's not super long, but it's just- the way he writes and we talk about this in the interview is just like poetry. Just an unbelievable talent. And so, so check it out.

[00:04:15] Check out Greg Garrett's writings. Check out James Baldwin's writings and we'll have all sorts of links in the show notes. And without further ado, here's part two of my interview with Greg freaking Garrett. Yeah, he really valued and understood that the beauty lies within the nuance.

[00:04:40] And this is a terrible analogy, but it made me think of an interview I had read with the musician Ben Folds years ago. Yeah. Where Ben Folds is talking about the fact that he liked a particular producer.

[00:04:54] I think it was Caleb Southern who produced the original- the early Ben Folds 5 work. But he liked him because he intentionally would leave in some of the mistakes. Yeah. He didn't want something that was so finely polished it was unrealistic.

[00:05:09] He wanted you to feel the reality of it, you know. And so they would leave some of the mistakes or some of the background noise in intentionally. He liked that. Well, yeah, the complication and the mess.

[00:05:27] So there's- I mean, there are so many great characters in Another Country. But we're introduced early in that novel to a young black man who has a broken heart. And he's sort of wandering the streets. He was a talented jazz drummer and now he's homeless.

[00:05:44] And he's basically selling himself for a warm meal and maybe a place to spend the night. And, you know, we look at somebody like that and we can make snap judgments about those people. You know, we see them and we're like, how can anybody do that?

[00:05:59] But because we also get the interior view of him. And he's thinking, you know, if I have to do this one more time, it may destroy me. Like I may not survive it. Then all of a sudden we're like, oh my God, how awful is this?

[00:06:14] To be forced into this situation where these are your best choices. So there- I mean, there are all, you know, any infinite variety of really interesting characters.

[00:06:28] But the other thing that I wanted to mention kind of in this regard is toward the end of Go Tell It on the Mountain, which is centered largely around a kind of James Baldwin figure in a black charismatic church in Harlem.

[00:06:41] And then the last part of the book looks at the adults in his life who we have seen only through the young boy's eyes. And we realize that they have these large and complicated and heartbreaking pasts that have brought them to the points where they are.

[00:06:59] So it's just- when you pay attention to what he's doing, it's just a master class in realistic art that gives people their full humanity. Yeah. And one of the things that you mentioned earlier, that is absolutely true.

[00:07:19] I mean, there are videos online that you can watch clips of interviews that he's done over the years. He- I often say this, not every good writer is a great speaker and not every great speaker is a great writer.

[00:07:33] But he was really great at both and just captivating to listen to him speak. And so you talk about in the book where, you know, the fire next time comes out in 63 and really, really puts him on the map. Yeah.

[00:07:48] And then there's this debate he has with this guy named William F. Buckley in 65 at Cambridge. Talk about that. Who was William F. Buckley and why was this such a significant event? Well, William F. Buckley was a conservative intellectual.

[00:08:02] And if our listeners are, like say under the age of 50 and only know the contemporary generation of conservative intellectuals, I disagreed with William F. Buckley on almost every issue. But his thinking was complicated and complex and he had reasons for the things that he did.

[00:08:27] And he was intelligent, he was articulate. And so what happened in 1965 in Cambridge, England at the Cambridge Union is that Baldwin and Buckley debated American racism.

[00:08:45] And, you know, by every standard, I mean, William F. Buckley, I think was, I forget if it was Harvard, but let's say Harvard. I mean, you know, a product of elite institutions. Baldwin went to a good public high school.

[00:09:01] You know, that was the extent of his formal education. But in the great documentary, I Am Not Your Negro, or you can look up Cambridge Union debate on YouTube and see some of this. You know, Buckley was smart and persuasive.

[00:09:19] And what's more, he looked like every other human in that room. It was a bunch of white rulers of the universe. But at the end of the day, it was Baldwin who convinced them about his own lived experience and the experience of so many people for 100, 200 more years.

[00:09:41] It was Baldwin who received the standing ovation from these people. And he was, as you say, a compelling speaker. And to watch him on those broadcasts or in this debate, to hear him give a speech, I think that that would have been a powerful sensory experience.

[00:10:05] Because his voice also evokes emotion. So his thoughts would have, you know, sparked you. But also just to listen to him for me is an amazing thing. It's one of the reasons that I really like that film, I Am Not Your Negro.

[00:10:21] Because there are so many occasions where you get to see and hear Baldwin. And again, the thing that it often does for people is they like, who is this guy? Is this like a superhero? Is this a guy that I just missed? Did I miss an issue?

[00:10:42] What's going on here? Because this guy is the real deal. Like, this guy could change the world. And he kind of did. Yeah, I think I told you before we started recording, that was exactly the thing that clued me into the existence of this brilliant individual.

[00:11:04] I saw a trailer for the documentary. And immediately, based on the trailer alone, I thought, wait, is this real? Like, I've never heard of this guy. And so I saved it. When the documentary came out, watched it, was absolutely floored.

[00:11:22] And then immediately went on Amazon and bought a couple of his books. And like I said, one of them was The Fire Next Time. And like we said before, the way he writes is almost like poetry. And the way he spoke was no different.

[00:11:35] It was very poetic in the way that he conveyed the things that he was, the points he was trying to get across. Yeah. Just captivating. So talk about like, so he's living in Paris, not Paris, but he's living in France most of his life.

[00:11:55] Because he felt like he would have a better shot at thriving there outside of the United States. Right.

[00:12:03] And later in the kind of 1970s, you talk about the fact that he later becomes a little disillusioned after he sees the assassinations of not only ML, you know, Martin Luther King Jr., but Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, as well as, you know, Robert F. Kennedy and John Kennedy.

[00:12:18] And John Kennedy. Who were two sort of, you know, folks who were kind of on their side and trying to help with the movement. And he writes about this in the 1972 book No Name in the Street. Talk a little bit about that.

[00:12:35] What I love about that book, No Name in the Street, is it feels like the nonfiction book that has the most of Baldwin himself in it. And I have taught The Fire Next Time as like spiritual autobiography.

[00:12:47] You could also teach it, you know, just as a great essay. But it feels to me that No Name in the Street is more like memoir. And, you know, it's him reflecting on how the history of the period affected him and the culture around him.

[00:13:06] And so, it feels to me looking at the descriptions and like his sort of ever increasing arc of despair in that period. By the time that Dr. King is killed, he doesn't know if he can deal with it. He doesn't know if he can go to the funeral.

[00:13:29] And when he gets to the funeral, there's this brilliant and haunting passage where he says, you know, he's always been afraid to cry in public. And, you know, that is a thing that's drummed into many men in our culture.

[00:13:45] But even further, he said, I was afraid that if I began to weep for Martin, I would never be able to stop. And, you know, all of us experienced some loss, grief, some disappointment. That was a soup con.

[00:14:05] You know, those were heaping helpings of loss and grief and disillusionment. And, you know, add the Kennedys into that. And he talks often about the Vietnam War and about the election of Richard Nixon.

[00:14:17] And he begins to feel that he doesn't recognize the country in which he was born. You know, problematic as that history experience, whatever it is.

[00:14:28] And so the sort of startling thing is that in his work and even all the way to the end of his life, even after all he's lost and all he's witnessed, he never gives in to despair.

[00:14:46] You know, he expresses it and it would not be honest if he didn't. But, you know, you get to the end of No Name in the Street, and he is still talking about possibilities.

[00:14:59] And then you get to the end of his life, and there's a work that I write about in the book, and it's his book on the Atlanta child murders. And I don't think it's his most successful work artistically. It's a little all over the place.

[00:15:18] And the sort of general critical judgment, you'll find some disagreements. But most people who love Baldwin, most of their favorite works are in the 1960s, maybe early 1970s. I think that there are some great works from later on in his life.

[00:15:34] But this is probably not one of them. And he is so affected by the racism he experiences, by the structural and personal injustices that are represented by the death of all of these. You know, 20-some I think. And they're not just children. They're also young people.

[00:15:52] And one of the – like I'm not a true crime addict. I do watch Only Murders in the Building. But what I think I know about serial killers is that they have a pattern.

[00:16:03] And so you're not going to kill an array of people from multitudes of ages, from every gender. You know, so what ended up happening in that case is that a young black man was charged in two of the cases and convicted.

[00:16:18] And then they just said – and he did all the others. And that's where they left it. There are some great reporting about this since Baldwin did his reporting. A great documentary which suggests that quite possibly these black children and young people were killed by the Klan.

[00:16:36] But there was so much about that episode that shattered Baldwin as it shattered the black community in Atlanta. And you could see in various places in the book is he's trying to – he's trying to juggle all of these things. And he's dropping some things.

[00:16:54] And you're not sure where he's going to end up at the end of the book. And he comes back as he always does to love and to hope and to possibility. And that for me is an amazing thing.

[00:17:09] I've mentioned this before, to have gone through everything that he went through and not to give up hope. Because hope – I mean hope is easy to lose. And the point that I make in the book, I think it's really important at the end of his life.

[00:17:26] He was writing a play called The Welcome Table. And the title comes from a black spiritual. It's one we used to sing at St. James in Austin as one of our communion hymns. I'm going to sit at the welcome table one of these days.

[00:17:44] And in the theology of that church and in that understanding that Baldwin had, there was this idea that life is hard. And tragedy happens.

[00:17:58] And too often people are judged by the color of their skin or by the person they love or by the way they pray or by the way they vote. But you know at some point – and Baldwin often also used the sort of Christian eschatological term, the New Jerusalem.

[00:18:15] He said, you know, I am working towards the New Jerusalem. And in that play, which is multiracial, multicultural, it's filled with people who in a bifurcated culture like ours should not be sitting down at the same table.

[00:18:31] You know, like imagine the worst Thanksgiving dinner you've ever heard about. You know, with people from all these different political persuasions in the family. And your crazy uncle who's got this new conspiracy theory he wants everybody to hear.

[00:18:46] But Baldwin really did until the end of his life believe that if not in this life – I mean please God, that would be great. But whatever it is that controls the universe. And Baldwin often talked about how he left the church.

[00:19:03] But I am one of those people who do not believe that he ever left off belief in some essential religious ideas. And so at the end of his life, even after everything, he still believes that it's possible for love to win the day.

[00:19:19] That we can sit at a table where we are seen and known and loved. And I mean just to sort of slip back into the part of Dr. King's March on Washington speech that is always badly misquoted by some people.

[00:19:35] That, you know, the color of our skin will matter less than, if you will, the content of our character. But Baldwin lays aside that content of our character thing because what he really thinks is that we will just be human together.

[00:19:51] You know, so theologically I would talk about, you know, we will just all recognize that we are children of God. Or that we are all bearing the light of Christ or however you want to think about it in whatever religious terms are valuable for you.

[00:20:05] But that for me has been a huge, huge lesson that I try and live into because I have suffered and I have not suffered anywhere near what he did. And to see that hope and to believe in that hope.

[00:20:20] And I do, I mean I do believe that in this life, please God, we are going to get to that place where we can gather at the table. And you know, lay down our sword and shield. The wolf will lie down with the lamb.

[00:20:36] I mean, I love all of those prophetic prophecies because I think if I did not believe in the possibility of them I could not get out of bed. Without any programming or design knowledge.

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[00:21:28] Test for free and present your business to the world. Visit shopify.de-try www.shopify.de-try Made for Germany. Powered by Shopify. Yeah, he really seemed to understand that this isn't a one person problem or a one group problem.

[00:21:50] It's everyone's problem and the way that we get through this is together, collectively. And that's obviously a theme throughout for him. And the other thing that was kind of interesting, because you talk about the fact that throughout his life and throughout his works,

[00:22:05] even though he had sort of left the church behind, even though he kind of grew up raised in it and did some preaching as a young man, but sort of walked away from it, it's prevalent throughout his works.

[00:22:18] And he sort of learned that early lesson that, you know, the early Jews in the Bible and Christians and other folks today are still learning that, you know, God doesn't reside in the temple. God lives in the streets. Yeah. And, you know, God lives with the marginalized.

[00:22:35] You know, Baldwin mostly didn't live long enough to be affected by liberation theology. But I think of him as a liberation theologian. And one of the kind of crazy honors of writing this book is that it has not every single day since it came out,

[00:22:55] but it is often been the number one book on Amazon.com in Christian liberation theology. Oh, that's cool. And it's not in any way that I think I am a better or more thoughtful thinker than James H. Cone, because I absolutely am not.

[00:23:11] But Baldwin has so much to say about liberation, you know, about liberation from bad faith, about liberation from injustice, liberation from the categories and the walls, you know, that divide us.

[00:23:26] And so I think that to the end of his life, there were ways that he would identify himself as a person of faith. I didn't include this in the book because I actually ran across this later.

[00:23:41] But in the last year or two of his life, he wrote an open letter to Desmond Tutu. You know, at that time, sort of in the midst of the struggle against apartheid.

[00:23:50] And as he introduced himself, he first says that he's not a person of faith, and then he stops and corrects himself. And this is in, you know, a written and revised letter. It's not conversation, you know? It's not like, oh, I misspoke.

[00:24:06] It's like, I meant to say this, and then he says, I am not a churchgoer. And so I think, you know, a lot of our listeners will resonate with that. Particularly if you've not found that community of faith that you feel like God is moving in

[00:24:23] and that could help God move in you in that way. But at the conclusion of that letter to Desmond Tutu, his closing is in the faith.

[00:24:34] And the other thing that I point out in the book is that my archival research suggested how deeply ingrained that faith was in him. So whether or not he claimed it in a public way, in the private letters, for example, over and over again.

[00:24:54] You know, he's using metaphors and phrases. He's talking about spirituals. And often when he's experiencing trials, he asks his agent manager to pray for him.

[00:25:04] You know, I don't know exactly how prayer works, but if I didn't believe that it does work in some way, I wouldn't ask somebody to do it. Right. So I preached on All Saints Day last fall at Wilshire Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas.

[00:25:26] And I preached about Dr. King, Maya Angelou, and James Baldwin, three of my formative saints. And the language that I used there, I still am carrying around because I think I believe it completely.

[00:25:40] I said that if James Baldwin were here with us today at Wilshire Baptist Church, that we would recognize the light of Christ in him. And so it's not that I want to claim him. You know, Jesus doesn't need to be surrounded.

[00:25:59] So it's like, you know, when I was growing up, and John, perhaps you were a witness to this as well, like everybody was trying to claim you too as a Christian band. Yes, yes. Okay? Because that meant we had at least a cool band. Yeah.

[00:26:16] But it's just like, there's a line where Bono sings, Stop helping God across the road like a little old lady. Yeah. And so, you know, my God does not need James Baldwin to be a believer, but my James Baldwin seems to be a believer.

[00:26:37] And so that's, you know, that's the story that I told because that's what I see in his life, his work, his letters. And because he's teaching me about my faith in a daily way, which, I mean, that's what we believe the saints do. Absolutely.

[00:26:54] And I think the way that, the perfect way to wrap up this interview and end this interview is to, A, give you an opportunity to really talk about, you know, your hopes for this book,

[00:27:05] but also to recognize the fact that, as you mentioned in the book, that James Baldwin really takes on this role of prophet in a way that his work resonates now more than ever. It's sort of timeless and transcendent.

[00:27:19] And obviously within the last six years, specifically in our country, racism has unfortunately really kind of risen to the surface. Not that it wasn't ever there. I think it's always been there.

[00:27:33] I think it's just become more obvious, at least to use his own term, you know, to us suffering from white ignorance, you know? So, talk about sort of his role as prophet and sort of your hope for this book.

[00:27:50] You know, I know we talked a little bit before we recorded, but you know, your hope for those who read this. Well, John, we were, you know, we were talking about Baldwin's wisdom.

[00:28:01] And one of the things that I think is important is that great art is always speaking. You know, it speaks to us at different stages of our life.

[00:28:09] You know, so like if I read No Name in the Street five years from now, I'm going to be touched by it in a different way. I'm going to see things in it I hadn't seen before. It's going to teach me things I hadn't known.

[00:28:20] And so I think for this age, you know, an age of growing white Christian nationalism, of authoritarian sort of tendencies among one party in the country.

[00:28:32] And then the other thing I've been thinking a lot about lately because I live in Texas and the state legislature is always trying to take actual American history out of the hands of Texas students.

[00:28:46] So in Texas, in Florida, across the American South, and with book banning by parents and other groups all over the place. There is this thing going on that is the sort of antithesis of what Baldwin calls for in his prophetic voice.

[00:29:06] You know, what he's calling for is for us to confront our history. He's calling for us to tell the truth about it. And in the opening essay in The Fire Next Time, he is talking about the twin poles in American white life of innocence and ignorance.

[00:29:27] And as somebody who does a lot of racial reconciliation work, and this is one of the things that I hope people would get out of this book, is the recognition that it's essential that we tell the truth and confront the history that we all share.

[00:29:41] But he says, you know, white Americans want to be innocent. But the only way that they can be innocent is to be ignorant.

[00:29:49] And we had a moment a couple of years ago when many white Americans saw a black man killed on camera by the police calling for his mother.

[00:30:01] And it was when George Floyd was murdered, white people across America who had denied racism had a light bulb go on over their heads. And for some people that light bulb stayed on.

[00:30:16] And then some people, I mean, this is probably a tortured metaphor at this point, but they unscrewed the light bulb and put it away. Because as Baldwin says in The Fire Next Time, to know something means that you have to act on it.

[00:30:33] And to act on it will change you. And people are terrified of that. So what I hope that people reading this book or listening to this interview or hearing about Baldwin or reading Baldwin further down the road,

[00:30:52] I would hope that they don't simply have the light bulb moment that he is so capable of giving us, but that we would listen to his prophetic voice saying,

[00:31:03] if you're a Christian person, it's not enough to put your money in the offering plate or the virtual offering plate or whatever it is you think that makes you holy.

[00:31:13] It's our attention to those who have the least, the marginalized in our culture, to the widow and the orphan and the alien, you know, in the language of the Old Testament prophets. That is what God requires of us.

[00:31:30] And this spurious Christianity that is American Christian nationalism has got to be confronted by other people who call themselves Christian and present the alternative that Baldwin and many other people give us.

[00:31:45] But I think one of the things that's absolutely essential is that rather than giving in to the despair that we live in this culture where the loudest voice calling itself Christian is also the most hateful and the most ignorant,

[00:31:59] that it's possible for us to be that half-shade braver. You know, to do what Baldwin did. And to say, I'm going to be a witness. I'm going to tell the truth.

[00:32:09] And I'm going to use the gifts that God has given me and the faith that has carried me to say that this is not what true faith actually is. You know, so those are big things. You know, and I didn't set out to write a protest novel.

[00:32:28] But the truth is, you know, every artist, every essayist, every filmmaker cares deeply about stuff. Baldwin cared deeply about stuff. And that stuff can motivate us and encourage us and give us courage to do the things that he talks about,

[00:32:49] the things that he lived his life in pursuit of, and to push us all a little bit down the road toward that new Jerusalem that he so fondly looked for. Beautiful. Great way to end. Thank you so much.

[00:33:05] As I said before, I was really looking forward to this. Baldwin is, like I said, if not my favorite author, he's top three probably. So it changed my life when I read the book and I know it will do the same for others,

[00:33:19] which is why I just recommend his works all the time. So thank you so much for coming on and talking about his life and works. John, you're so welcome. And thanks to all your listeners.

[00:33:31] And yeah, just take John's advice, go out there and read some Baldwin and be prepared for him to change you. Absolutely. And where can people go to keep up on top of what your works and get a copy of the new book?

[00:33:46] Well, this is a book that's available wherever books are sold. And of course, if you've got a great independent bookstore, I would always encourage your support of them.

[00:33:55] And then I write a regular column for Baptist News Global and write occasionally for a whole lot of other things across the country and around the world. I am leaning deep into these questions of racial reconciliation, racial healing, truth telling,

[00:34:11] and in particular from the avenue of my being, as your listeners cannot tell, but I am an older, fairly substantial, straight white Christian man. And for me and for other straight white Christian men to care about race is essential if anything's ever going to change.

[00:34:33] Because we are the people hindering that transformation, I think is one of the great lessons that Baldwin has for us. White people don't face the harm of racism every day, but we are, he says, in chained by that racism and morally devalued by it.

[00:34:55] So, it's just an essential thing that we all need to do. So, reach out, speak out, march, chant, vote, and let's make a difference. Amen. The Gospel According to Jesus is a book that I've been reading for a long time.

[00:35:12] Amen. The Gospel According to James Baldwin, America's great prophet can teach us about life, love, and identity. Greg Garrett, thank you so much for coming on today. You're welcome. Living, giving, dying folks a shoulder and a hand

[00:35:57] Until he told his leaders that he had some feelings for another man And they said, John, you must go And take your broken heart and walk it to the door We know you're hurting and you've been giving But now your damage goes and you gotta give some more

[00:36:37] John, we love you, but we can't love you You must go Jen could sing a song and channel the divine Spend a decade sharing it and kept herself in line Until her eyes began to see the light inside the dark

[00:37:30] Then the floor of all she thought began to fall apart And they said, Jen, you must go We didn't know your quest would lead you down this road We know you're searching and you've been giving But now you've wandered off and you gotta walk

[00:38:08] Jen, we love you, but we can't have you You must go Jane was born with skin darker than her peers Spent a cycle telling them the reasons for her fears No one seemed to know or care about the past

[00:39:02] Then they showed her where she stood with every vote they cast And they said, Jane, thanks for your time But there's no room for you when there's power on the line We know you're hurting, but we're not listening

[00:39:36] And we'd help you out, but we don't have the kind You must go So John and Jen and Jane were on the streets without And he said, child, don't you go I want your broken heart and your beautiful soul I've felt your hurting, I've seen your giving

[00:40:43] And I'll stay right here till you have the power to stand They may not want you, but I know they need you So let us go The rejected and broken And turned away, let us go Into the bright

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