Ep. 170 - Derek Kubilus ”Holy Hell: A Case Against Eternal Damnation” pt. 2

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[00:01:00] that it was possible for people, and even likely that most people would burn for all eternity, you would have a really tough time defending the rest of your life. That is, your ability to do anything other than engage in some kind of ministry, some kind of attempt

[00:01:32] to save those people from that fate. And I'm not even talking about full-time professional ministry. I'm talking about, you know, 120 hours a week eating and sleeping only when you have to. Because compared to the infinity of eternal torment, your 90 years here

[00:02:00] on this world ought to be spent entirely. And when I say entirely, I mean entirely in this mission to quote unquote save people from that fate. You would never go on vacation. You would never go to the movies. People would say that Billy Graham was a lazy,

[00:02:24] terrible evangelist because he spent so much time hanging out with his family. And you would never, ever have children. You wouldn't. It would be totally immoral to procreate if you thought there was even a possibility that your children could spend eternity in damnation. You would never do it.

[00:03:11] Welcome to The Deconstructionist Podcast. I'm your host, John Williamson. We're back with part two of my conversation with Derek Koubelis. Really interesting conversation. Hopefully you enjoyed the first part. We'll get to the second part here in a second. But for all things deconstructionist, check out www.thedeconstructionist.com.

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[00:05:05] With that, let's get to part two and the final episode of this conversation on the topic of hell again. Derek Kubelius, great guest, super, super nice guy. Very, very knowledgeable. Great writer. So highly recommend the book. Check it out. All the links are in the show notes.

[00:05:22] And without further ado, I give you Derek freaking Kubelius. Lead you down this road. We know you're searching and you've been. Yeah, so let's talk about so obviously we've got some some some issues with the translation and sort of.

[00:05:44] And again, you know, we've talked on the podcast before about the King James version and how is this sort of this lazy mass bulk translation into from three, four words. That word. Yeah, yeah. With hell. Yeah, it is lazy when it comes to hell.

[00:05:59] The rest of it's beautiful. But sure. Yeah. Hell is lazy. Yeah. Which, you know, if they're going to pick a part to to be lazy with, that would be the worst part. Come on, guys. You had one job. Yeah. And you've given people millions of people panic attacks.

[00:06:16] That's right. Centuries now. So one of the other things, too, that I want to talk about is obviously that that's, you know, the translation issue is problematic. But then like over time and we talked about this a little bit before we started recording.

[00:06:32] There's I think we'd be remiss to say, you know, if we didn't talk about like some of the other outside influences, because when it comes to hell and, you know, over time, like the devil or Satan has become associated as the lord of hell,

[00:06:48] even though there's no connection in scripture whatsoever. You know, it's it kind of got, I don't know, expanded upon over time, shall we say. And if we really look at it, there's a lot of the things that we come to believe

[00:07:04] that we've come to believe now in the 21st century. Most of that does not actually come from scripture. It comes from outside of scripture. Yeah. So talk about that a little bit. Oh, well, I mean, the guy who shaped our conception of hell more than anyone

[00:07:24] was probably Dante Alighieri, right? In the Inferno. And the crazy thing about Dante, and it is a beautiful I mean, if you've never read the Divine Comedy, if you get a good translation, it is absolutely stunningly beautiful. And I love it. I really do love it.

[00:07:51] I think the Inferno is terrible and has probably shaped, has probably mal-shaped Christian thought worse than almost any other document. But I mean, for instance, the guy is a political dude. That's the thing that folks don't get about Dante. He's a political dude in he wants

[00:08:27] a return, you know, in Florence of the Roman Empire. That's that's really what he wants. And he spent his life kind of advocating for the power of the Holy Roman Emperor. And a return to like an Augustinian kind of or not even Augustinian,

[00:08:50] I would say Constantinian partnership between the church and the emperor with the emperor kind of leading the way. And then when you when you read his conception of hell and you get down to the very bottom with Satan himself trapped in ice,

[00:09:12] you know, like there are three figures there. The first one makes sense that it's Judas Iscariot because he betrayed Jesus. But then the other two are Brutus and Cassius. Who betrayed Julius Caesar? And you're reading it and you're like, well,

[00:09:36] what the hell does this have to do with anything? Right. Right. Well, because what what Dante did is he started we probably didn't started it started, but he certainly gave it some rocket fuel. This tradition of designing theology in such a way

[00:10:01] that our political enemies are the ones who go to hell. Mm hmm. Right. Like hell becomes a place where we can, in our own minds, resign the souls of those who we call enemies. We can we can draw that distinction

[00:10:26] in the world for people between sheep and goats. And we can say, well, the goats, their lives don't mean anything. They're going to hell anyway. So I think hell becomes kind of a Rorschach by which we write our own political stories over top of them.

[00:10:52] Does that make sense? Yeah. And I would I would add to that as well. You know, my dad and I, my dad just gets so frustrated. He's like, I don't understand why anybody would like stick to this doctrine of of hell. You know, it doesn't make any sense.

[00:11:07] It doesn't doesn't jive with all loving God and all that stuff. And for me, it's always come back to humans have this innate sense of justice and that justice must be served. And we want to know that if we behaved well throughout our lives

[00:11:24] and this other person didn't that in the end they will be punished in some form or fashion. And we want to see that meted out. And, you know, like even I find myself if I'm driving down the highway

[00:11:35] and I see some guy driving like a jerk, nothing would make me happier than if I, you know, continue my journey down the road. And in five miles, I see him on the side of the road pulled over by a cop. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:47] And so like, I want to know that that guy is going to pay for for breaking the rules, you know, and I think largely I think human beings want to know that like there is some sort of justice.

[00:11:57] And for them, maybe hell is that is that ultimate justice? Absolutely. I think I think we take a kind of comfort in that there's a kind of solace in the idea that somebody is being punished. But the difference is, is that

[00:12:21] when we see it in our day to day lives, usually that punishment is a means to an end of that person's redemption. Right. Like so when someone hurts us in some way, when someone harms us or steals from us,

[00:12:42] it might actually be good if that person is apprehended by authorities, if they are run through the legal system, perhaps you know, if the legal system is working well that week, maybe they'll be rehabilitated, which is the ultimate form of justice. Right.

[00:13:03] Punishment for punishment's sake is not justice. That's abuse. Right. Punishment for the sake of rehabilitation is the epitome of justice. That's what we call discipline. And I actually happen to think that everything that we call hell in the Bible, everything, everything that's dark,

[00:13:32] that speaks of punishment that we refer to is the search for that kind of justice in every human life. Ultimately, the book is trying to make the case that hell, everything that we believe about hell is actually what Roman Catholics would refer to as purgatory.

[00:14:02] Yeah. Continue that train of thought, because that is an interesting thing that is very unique to Roman Catholicism, this notion of purgatory. It's not found really anywhere. No. And you know, a lot of if you read the Catechism, a lot of the scriptures that they use,

[00:14:24] because everyone says, well, purgatory is not in the Bible. It sure is. It's just that a lot of the scriptures that they use to refer to purgatory are the ones that we use to refer to hell. Now, they still have a conception of an eternal, everlasting, tormented hell.

[00:14:45] But I actually think that is I read the New Testament and as I kind of explicated in the book, everything that seems that we 21st century Americans think is referring to an endless, never ending punishment for the sake of punishment is actually. The hard work of God

[00:15:14] bringing redemption to souls on the other side of the grave, such that on a long enough timeline, everyone is reconciled to God eventually. Even and this is one of the ones that might get me in trouble, even I would say Satan and his demons. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[00:15:44] I mean, my dad has often said that, you know, on the basis of reconciliation or redemption or, you know, even, you know, to use the metaphor that we talked about earlier, you know, in terms of the fiery lake, you know, the purification of the burning away of,

[00:16:05] you know, the impurities that, you know, if ultimately we're not all reconciled to God, then this grand experiment failed. Yeah, absolutely. It's a pretty weak God you're describing if that God cannot save every single person. If that God cannot balance the grand equation he began with creation, right?

[00:16:33] If there's a remainder at the end of all of that, at the end of all of that, if there's a decimal point that he can't do anything with except burn them forever, then I think you're describing a God who has a very malignant kind of impotence, right?

[00:16:58] Ultimately, everyone must be reconciled. That doesn't mean that there won't be pain, right? That doesn't mean that it's not going to hurt whatever it is that lies for us on the other side of the grave. You know, I can think of

[00:17:24] different people in my life and throughout history, and I think of folks who, you know, maybe when they die, their soul will be in such a place that they will be ready to enter into that journey of infinite intimacy with the divine right away.

[00:17:48] And then I think of myself, or I think of, you know, some choice politicians. And I think, you know, some of us may, we may have to do a little CrossFit on the other side of the grave to get to a point where we're ready to

[00:18:14] to experience that never-ending journey into the divine. And I think that that process is what they originally meant when they talked about the thing that we have come to call hell.

[00:18:51] And I think that's what they meant when they talked about the thing that we have come to call hell.

[00:19:22] Yeah, and it sort of reminds me of therapy, you know, in the sense that if there's a lot of work to be done and you're doing it right, it's exhausting. It's painful, and it's tough to look at yourself in the mirror and acknowledge the, you know,

[00:19:54] the ugliness sometimes. And that takes a lot out of you. And so yeah, for some people, that might be a painful situation. Yeah, or, you know, this is really cool because before we started this podcast,

[00:20:09] you and I were talking about how our story shaped the way we think about God. And I had mentioned to you that I was born with a birth defect in my right leg, and I had a lot of

[00:20:24] operations and a lot of physical therapy when I was a child trying to correct this thing. And then when I was 29 years old, it essentially just started to disintegrate. My ankle just fell apart.

[00:20:36] And I finally found a doctor who said, you may as well just let me cut it off. You may as well just let me amputate and we'll give you a prosthetic leg and you'll be a lot happier.

[00:20:51] You won't have as much pain. You won't walk with such a limp. And that was undoubtedly the most painful thing I've ever experienced, both physically and emotionally. But it was incredibly redemptive. You know, that part of me that I was born with

[00:21:14] had to be cut away so that a new chapter of my life could begin. Wow. Yeah. And the other thing I think about often too is just, you know, the example that I give

[00:21:31] is just because we have a real issue with it in the United States are like school shootings, you know, and you think about the effect. Like I have a daughter. My daughter's nine years old.

[00:21:42] And I think about what I would do in that scenario. And I cannot imagine that if my daughter were a victim in that same scenario, that a fiery eternal pit would even come close to touching

[00:21:58] the type of hell that I would be living in that moment. And so for me, hell has always been more about what we do in this life and the choices that we make and the ripple effect that they have,

[00:22:11] whether they be positive or negative, because it could go in either direction. But like throwing a stone into water, it's going to have a ripple effect some way somehow. Maybe we are aware

[00:22:22] of the effect that it has and maybe we aren't. But in a situation like that, I cannot imagine. I would gladly take an eternity in a fiery pit if it meant saving my daughter in an instant.

[00:22:37] Well, and I think those kinds of experiences that we have on this side of the grave to sort of begin to do some of that burning away for us, you know. I think we begin,

[00:22:56] they teach us lessons that yeah, you know, in the hours, days, years after some kind of tragedy like that might happen, you might find yourself burning with a kind of rage that you wouldn't even understand otherwise. It would be impossible for any of us to understand.

[00:23:22] But we've been living with school shootings for, well since I was in high school, 97 I think was when Columbine happened. And every time there is one, they always bring on somebody, some parent

[00:23:35] from years ago. And whenever that happens, I always get the sense that this person has so much wisdom now. Like they've been through so much and they've continued to live their lives.

[00:23:49] Most of them advocate for some kind of gun control or something of that nature. And they've spent their lives having these really difficult conversations. And they have an air about

[00:24:01] them that is just so patient and humble yet wise. And I attribute that to the fact that they have walked through these flames, you know, and it has had a purifying effect on who they are.

[00:24:27] Yeah. And in those situations, that sort of hell doesn't discriminate between good people and bad people. It's arbitrary in terms of who it touches. And it's unthinkable, but, and yet we still have the need to hang on to this notion of a fiery eternal pit.

[00:24:51] And yet we're suffering things I would say are even worse, you know, in this reality. Well, I think that's part of the reason why that pit exists is to help those folks to give them a measure of consolation to say, oh, don't worry. That person that hurt you

[00:25:12] is going to that pit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But we ought not call that justice. Right? I think a better form of justice is what we saw next door in Pennsylvania in 2006 when the, I think it was 2006,

[00:25:35] when the Amish school shooting happened. Right? And that whole community outside of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, that whole community rallied around the widow of the shooter and like, you know, set up a charity for her.

[00:26:02] Held, there was an Amish man who held the shooter's own father as he was weeping in his arms. And that was the most saintly display of forgiveness I've ever been witness to. And it made me really rethink my opinion about the Amish. I'll tell you that. Yeah, certainly.

[00:26:33] That there is something about the way that they are formed that could create people who were capable of having that kind of attitude in their life that in the midst of their grief, an unimaginable, literally unimaginable grief, that they could still go out of their way to

[00:26:55] reach out to someone who was so close to someone who hurt them so badly. It was just amazing. Yeah. It's this level of forgiveness that we are called to give. And yet so few of us have

[00:27:09] the capacity to give. Yeah, I mean, I talk about that all the time. If someone hurt my daughter, to go back to that example, I don't know that I would be able to do that. Oh, you never know. You know, that's the reason why one of the things

[00:27:25] that my book starts with is an appeal to humility. Right? And I talk about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, where the church gathers for the very first time to figure out what they're going to do

[00:27:44] about all the Jewish customs and that kind of thing. And whether or not men are going to have to be circumcised is the real question, right? Whether Gentile men are going to have this

[00:27:56] thing done to them. And when they come up with their decision and they read it out loud, they say this really weird thing. They say, it seems to us into the Holy Spirit, or it is apparent

[00:28:13] to us. And that's not the way most Christians talk today. Right? Most Christians say things like, you know, the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it, that sort of thing. But the truth is, like, those early apostles had a degree of humility around theological matters,

[00:28:35] but also around personal matters. You are not as righteous as you think you are, you know? Not you personally. But I, for instance, am a, I talked about my first book, The Real War on Terror, written with John Preeby, where we kind of explain why we were committed,

[00:29:03] Christian pacifists, committed to nonviolence. See, I think nonviolence is a non-negotiable aspect of the Christian faith. Yet, if somebody hurt my wife, I have no idea how I would react.

[00:29:24] I have no idea how I would react in that moment. You know, I hope that I have enough virtue, that I've accumulated enough virtue over the years to say that I would act in a way that is consistent

[00:29:39] with the gospel as Jesus brought it to us. But I have no idea. I have no earthly idea. Yeah. So, I think the perfect place to end our conversation today is what is your hope for the

[00:29:55] book? Because I think you really, you detail it out very, very well. I love how the chapters are structured and you approach it with gentleness, which I think you kind of have to with this type

[00:30:08] of topic. So, what is your hope for folks who read it? Oh, man. I hope that they read it. That's the number one thing. I hope people will read it with an open mind. And for clergy people,

[00:30:30] if they're clergy who read it, I hope that they will take it and say, okay, this kind of helps me think through this a little more. And a lot of clergy I know have already had these same kinds

[00:30:45] of thoughts. They've just never had the opportunity to organize them and think about them in an organized way. And so, I hope that this kind of gives them the confidence to declare a little more confidently the salvation of all people. And for lay people,

[00:31:11] I hope it puts them at ease. If they have folks in their lives that have passed away that they've had questions about or worries about, I hope this can put their heart to rest and also challenge

[00:31:29] them to see the people in the world that they think are evil as being capable of redemption, to see them as God sees them. I love that. Great way to end. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having me. This is awesome.

[00:31:49] Absolutely, man. Anytime. We'll definitely have to do this again. But tell people where they can go to keep up on top of what you're up to and then also get a copy of the book.

[00:31:58] Well, we're still putting a website together. I'm not a big self-promoter. And so, the publisher was like, so what's your website? And I'm like, my Facebook page? What is that? So, we're putting

[00:32:12] together a website. The book is called Holy Hell, A Case Against Eternal Damnation. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all those places where you find books. I do also have, if you are someone who has... We didn't talk about this today, but if you're

[00:32:34] someone who has had friends or loved ones who've gotten mixed up in conspiracy theories and that kind of thing, I have a podcast that's all about that. It's 10 episodes long. It's called Crossover

[00:32:47] Q. You can get it wherever there are podcasts. Just trying to help folks who are dealing with what seems like an intractable situation in this society. Love that. We will definitely add that to the show notes. So, we'll put the links in there

[00:33:04] and again, thank you so much for coming on talking about a topic, I think, again, that causes a lot of people a lot of anxiety and taking a deeper look into it. Thanks, Jon.