Ep. 251 - Dr. Lloyd Barba "Sanctuary in America" pt. 2

[00:00:00] If someone asks you to define religion, I mean I've done this in my class I teach on what is religion, and people will say oh it's a belief in God, it's a belief in the divine, it's going to temple, it's going to church. But more so than just the belief or if you will the abstraction of some kind of philosophical abstraction of what God is, the nature of evil, beyond that we often see that attitudes and the belief itself, it's really shaped not by a creed or sort of a you know,

[00:00:30] handed down by you know, by Calvin or by Luther, it's group identity. Sam Perry argues in his book that if within your group that there is a belief that let's say you know, immigrants are bad for the country, if that's what's being peddled within the larger group, one has a tendency to go towards group identity more strongly and then they will do the attaching of theological justification for it later.

[00:01:01] Welcome to The Deconstructionists. I'm your host John Williamson and today we're going to talk about the fact that we're going to talk about. We're continuing our conversation with historian Dr. Lloyd Barba, author of Sanctuary in America, How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants and Why It Still Matters. In part one we explore the origins of the sanctuary movement and the extraordinary decisions made by ordinary people who believe that protecting vulnerable human beings was not simply a political choice, but a moral and spiritual responsibility.

[00:01:30] And what makes this history so fascinating is that it forces us to confront questions that remain deeply relevant today. What does it actually mean to love your neighbor when that love comes with a cost? What happens when religious institutions find themselves caught between their prophetic calling and their desire to remain respectable, comfortable or politically acceptable? And can a movement rooted in compassion and resistance actually change the way a nation understands justice?

[00:02:00] These aren't just questions about the 1980s. They're questions about who we are right now, and perhaps more importantly, who we're willing to become. In this second half of our conversation, we continue exploring the legacy of sanctuary, the intersection of religious conviction and political action, and what this remarkable chapter of American history might teach us about the challenges we're facing today. But before we get started, I also want to remind everyone about our upcoming podcast.

[00:02:31] This is who we become. We've started revealing our first guests, and I can't tell you how excited I am for you to hear these conversations. We're talking with people who have experienced extraordinary loss, survived unimaginable circumstances, challenged deeply held beliefs, and discovered entirely new ways of understanding their lives. Some of these stories are heartbreaking, others are inspiring, and many are both.

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[00:03:26] Share the website, tell a friend, or invite someone you know to subscribe. Building something new is never easy, and having this community along for the journey means more than you know. All right, let's jump back into the second half of my conversation with Dr. Lloyd Barba.

[00:03:51] Because a Bible, as one sanctuary organizer or sanctuary theologian put it in the 80s, the Bible is a book written by migrants for migrants. And you get that early on in Scripture. You can look at the exile of Adam and Eve from the garden. You can, the calling of Abraham. Abraham's, I mean, from, from Isaac to Joseph to Moses. It's a migration arc in the Bible.

[00:04:19] And you see what the Holy Family having to flee and to go to Egypt, right? It's just there through and through. Happy to talk more about that or however you want to go with it. But you sort of opened up a can of worms there, John. So, no, this is great. I wholeheartedly agree.

[00:04:33] I think, you know, the amount of mental gymnastics that have to take place for people to defend a position against offering sanctuary is often just mind blowing to me to see these people try to find some way, something to cling on to just to defend sort of their, their preferred power structure, you know, which is really what it comes down to.

[00:04:56] It's, it's, they're in a comfortable position because they benefit from the system that exists and anything contrary to that, you know, causes discomfort, you know? And, and so, uh, they have to find a way to argue against it. And, you know, like you said, this is one that really, that's a difficult. Well, yeah, but I think you hit it spot on John with the, with the term indifference, because I think that's exactly what this view of Romans 13 of just obey the authorities.

[00:05:23] I think it does try to promote at the very least indifference, if not a kind of hostility at worst. But I think, you know, that's spot on. I think it's a really astute observation. Thank you. Um, so how did we get to a point? And this is, uh, I love talking about American Christianity just because it's, you know, what, what I was born and raised in.

[00:05:44] And so I'm always fascinated by sort of, uh, the historical, um, arc of American Christianity, but how do we get to a point in American Christianity where someone can claim a very high view of scripture? And because you hear that a lot, I, I actually had in one of my other projects had somebody email me who disagreed with one of my theological positions and, and, and sort of, um, arrogantly said, well, what about those of us who have a high view of scripture as if I, I do not, you know?

[00:06:14] And I, I, I very gently responded. Um, do you not think that I have put some time and effort, you know, into defending my position and researching it ultimately? Um, so anyway, uh, uh, how do we get to a point in American Christianity where someone can claim a very high view of scripture and simultaneously support policies that seem completely at odds with these repeated commands to welcome the stranger?

[00:06:38] Because it seems like it's really the marriage of American politics and largely, uh, conservative, um, Christianity that have created a situation where they've pitted these two things at opposite ends. No, that's a great question. Um, it would take a long time to answer, but if, if I could put in a nutshell, I think. Um, again, given the lack of scriptural backing, if you will, right.

[00:07:07] If one says, yeah, have a high, high regard or high view of scripture and, um, given the lack of scriptural backing to argue against, um, care for the stranger, care for the refugee, et cetera, not oppressing the stranger. The way I think that gets done is through group identity. So what I mean by that, um, there's a work in the work of a sociologist, uh, Sam Perry.

[00:07:34] He looks at, well, when people think about religion, we often think about beliefs, right? If someone asks you to define religion, I mean, I've done this in my class. I teach on what is religion and people will say, oh, it's a belief in God. It's a belief in the divine. It's, um, it's going to temple. It's going to church, but more so than just the belief or if you will, the abstraction of some kind of philosophical, philosophical abstraction of what God is the nature of evil.

[00:08:01] So beyond that, we often see that, uh, that I attitudes and, and the belief itself, it's really shaped not by a creed or, or sort of a, you know, handed down by, you know, um, by Calvin or by Luther. It's group identity.

[00:08:19] Uh, Sam Perry argues in his book that if within your group, that there is a belief that let's say, um, you know, um, immigrants are bad for the country. If that's, what's being peddled within the larger group, one has a tendency to go towards group identity more strongly, and then they will do the attaching of theological justification for it later.

[00:08:45] And what we have in this case where, um, folks have really gone hard against immigration. Uh, it's a really convenient marriage, if you will, of work of the, of the political right and the religious right. Specifically in the 1980s, it became quite clear that.

[00:09:03] A way for evangelicals, for Catholic folks, um, on the right side, on the right wing of the Catholic church, for them to gain, um, a seat at the table or to really have an influential place in the public square of debate. It was to ride the coattails of, of Reagan's ascendancy. And that has been their ticket still by and large. I mean, you can look at sort of the project today of Christian nationalism, and it's that same sort of thing, right?

[00:09:31] Where you kind of wonder what's coming first, the Christian or the nationalism. I think one supports the other and it's by and large a group identity. So if you get your marching orders from an influencer from, you know, sometimes these messages all come out at once, right? Oh, we got to support Trump on this X or XYZ policy. You might, you'll get the support usually for it first. And then the theological justification for it later, if you feel the need to attach Christian value to it.

[00:09:58] I hope that makes sense, but yeah, I would really look to a group identity and then the theological justification happens after the fact. Yeah. That reminds me of, um, I believe he's a sociologist as well. Um, Jonathan Haidt, um, who talks about, um, tribalism in that way where it is quote, I think is it binds and it also blinds, you know? Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a big part of that, that sort of that social psychology, right?

[00:10:24] That yeah, it, it binds and blinds and we have the same sort of thing going on here where I don't know how you could possibly miss the narrative arc of migration in the scripture and not see. This is a, this is a group of migrants, folks from Abraham or really fun to argue Adam, Eve to the Holy family and beyond, but. Whatever's convenient, as you said. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:10:44] Um, it, well, and, and, and also if you're, if you're the type who, who just sticks strictly with the new Testament, um, you know, within Jesus teachings, just in general, it's pretty blatant. Uh, how important it is to take care of the other, the, the, the, the, the less than, you know, the, the outcasts of society.

[00:11:03] It's pretty blatant, you know, even if, uh, you kind of steer away from immigration, uh, just the fact that like, there are countless stories, you know, where, you know, he's taking care of prostitutes and. And, you know, uh, the tax collectors who were considered scum of the earth at that point, you know? So it's like, you know, there's so many just, you know, different examples there, but. Yeah. Yeah. And read.

[00:11:30] Um, and can I give the sort of the non book Christian answer for, for myself, my own perspective? Yeah. So, um, that goes back to me for, uh, Matthew, Matthew 22, um, verse 39 or 40 or so where, you know, on where Jesus has asked, what's the greatest of the commandments? Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul and mind. And the second is love your neighbors yourself. And it's a fundamental question we have to ask ourselves.

[00:11:54] If we're not, if this is not expressing love for our neighbor as we would for ourselves, then I think we're, we're missing the mark there. Right? Yeah. And that brings the question is, you know, what does he mean by neighbor? You know, and I've, I've often said on the podcast that doesn't mean the neighbor that looks and thanks and worships just like you. Agreed. Right. You don't get to pick your neighbors most of the time. Right. So. Exactly. Exactly. And there's a reason why Jesus chose a Samaritan for that example too, right?

[00:12:20] In, in Luke 10, someone who was socially a pariah and that was a neighbor, not just of a different class, but people they were not supposed to associate with a foreigner. If you will. Right. That xenophobia should be there, but Jesus hits xenophobia right on the head with that, with that parable. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. That's still one of my favorites. Yeah. All right. I'll, I'll jump off of that and go back to the, to the main text here. You're good. You're good. Oh, that was fantastic.

[00:12:48] Um, do you think immigration exposes something deeper about the way many Christians actually use the Bible? That scripture sometimes becomes less the thing shaping their politics. You know, we kind of touch on this a little bit already, but, um, more the thing recruited afterward to defend politics they already hold. Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely the latter, right. Of defending politics that they already hold. And again, this is where I'm genuinely puzzled.

[00:13:18] And again, being very familiar and in the, the, the circles of, you know, sort of, uh, of this larger evangelical Pentecostal world, um, knowing how seriously people take the Bible and in my own training, right. And I, that the Bible is again, you may say the high view of scripture. I walk away always sort of disappointed after reading rebuttals to immigration.

[00:13:46] And I, John, I, I say this genuinely. I was, they had already lost me, right. When there wasn't a strong sort of scriptural defense for it. But especially when you got to what I already mentioned, this, this, this, this, um, this rebuke of empathy or saying empathy is bad. And I know, you know, folks who maintain the position. It's not all empathy. That's bad. I, I, I, I get, I get the nuances of their argument, but at the same time.

[00:14:09] That just feels so antithetical to the mess of Jesus who showed empathy along the very sort of axes of social class that the same, very same people who argue empathy is bad are rebuking. Right. So you said Jesus hanging out the prostitutes. So Jesus cuts across, um, class. He cuts across, um, ethnicities, even in these cases, right.

[00:14:32] Speaking to the Sour of Phoenician women, uh, this parable, this is a good Samaritan. And I just, I I'm quite astonished that it got to the point of, of, of really bastardizing empathy and not seeing that as a fundamental Christian value. That's where I was. Yeah. Taken aback. Um, I can't say I totally saw that coming.

[00:14:56] I mean, the foundation I think was there. It, yeah, for me, it sort of starts with, you know, as you said, historically speaking, it really, um, it really kicks into gear in the eighties, you know, and when, when it sort of hitched its wagon to politics, but you also see like this, uh, you know, this, uh, prosperity gospel being taught, um, you know, where, where now we've convinced people that, well, everyone, all of you are supposed to be millionaires.

[00:15:24] There's just something standing in the way of you being, you know, uh, uh, wealthy, you know? And it's like, that's not what the Bible teaches. You know, the Bible doesn't say that your life is going to be perfect or without pain or suffering or, and that you're going to be, you know, monetarily rich. It like you're, you've missed a lot of things in the Bible. If you think that. You mean the youngest ruler didn't name it and claim it, John? Right. Yeah. Wait, what? Exactly. Oh yeah.

[00:15:54] So it's, it's, it is interesting, uh, to, to look at sort of the, the mindset or the mentality as, uh, and that's definitely something I, you know, I, I would love to talk to you about on. On the other podcasts is just, um, you know, how specifically American Christianity sort of evolved, uh, in a very kind of unique way. It feels like, you know, at least in North America anyway, um, you know, from its roots, you know, coming out of Europe for the most part.

[00:16:21] Um, there's another section I really want, um, to talk about in the interview because it, it keeps us from romanticizing, uh, the movement as well. It, you know, you, you acknowledge that sanctuary organizers sometimes, um, fell into paternalistic or white savior dynamics, which is definitely an issue, um, that we see often.

[00:16:41] Um, and I, it kind of goes back to the earlier question about, I think so often our version of helping, uh, helping the poor and the, and the sick is just to throw money at it, you know, or, or, or send missions trips over and we'll just come in and save the day and then go back to our suburban homes. Um, refugees push back and insist that sanctuary is supposed to be a partnership.

[00:17:02] So, um, you don't, you know, so, so talk a little bit about like even people doing admirable work sometimes slipped into paternalism. Where did sanctuary activists get it wrong? Yeah. Great question. And so we do bring up, uh, one example in the book. I believe it's in, in chapter two, when we speak about the, um, the, uh, sanctuary goes national. And so just to give you a bit of background on the episode, I think it really highlights, um, or it addresses the, the question that you're asking.

[00:17:33] So in this case we had, um, so the, the, the folks down in Arizona and Tucson, they were largely, uh, in charge of getting folks across the border. I mean, they were literally walking people across the border and then getting them in vehicles, transporting them to a safe house. In many cases, it was a church. And then they organized with, uh, sanctuary activists in Chicago, which we can kind of think of as a clearing house, if you will. It's not right on the border.

[00:18:01] So that people aren't showing up to Chicago of, you know, you're the first American I've seen the first church I've seen. I need your help right away. Rather, uh, Chicago's role was to coordinate what they called the new underground railroad. Now that should harken back to the underground railroad, the antebellum, uh, route for, uh, escaped and slave people. So Chicago was largely in charge of coordinating the underground railroad. And the case we talk about is again, a lot of success with that.

[00:18:29] Um, getting the testimonies out there, raising awareness about us intervention, Central America. But there was a case in which a young couple from Guatemala, um, had been brought over the border and, uh, they were taken to Chicago. And part of what was to be done or, or, or the, the organized in Chicago had expectations that if they came to them, that they would give their testimonies.

[00:18:52] And in doing so, you know, Chicago organizes provide a platform and they can speak what, about what they experienced. However, the people that were the young couple that was brought to Chicago didn't, didn't, they were reluctant to speak about some of the horrors that they had witnessed, but also. The first hand experience was not as spot on with some of the other folks who had taken sanctuary or in safe houses.

[00:19:19] And so the story goes, according to the Tucson organizers that the young couple was sent back to Tucson, which is a really, really precarious thing to do, right. To send them publicly back on, on, on a bus. And so an issue arose there of wait is a purpose to have a platform to speak about the injustice in Central America. Or when folks don't have sort of that, that testimony that really highlights that. Are we going to put them on the bus to send them back?

[00:19:47] That was a really sort of gross example, if you will, where it was the folks in Tucson. That was just terribly paternalistic and heavy handed for the Chicago organization to send them back. And so there was learning along the way. And one of the places you can see this in real time is the, the periodical that the Chicago organizers published called Basta Spanish for Enough.

[00:20:09] It's the newsletter for the Chicago religious task force on Central America, basically things you're organizing and refugees are writing to the organizers and saying, this is what we need to see more of. We had a symposium. We had a symposium. They, uh, there are refugees who were not given time. We're not given ample time. So there's correction along the way, certainly. And, um, yeah, I think there's also this idea though. Um, perhaps an undue expectation that. Well, who are the leaders of the movement?

[00:20:38] Probably the ones we see doing the interviews, right? The people whose writings we get to read today. Um, they're writing to as the writing op ed or their appearing on 60 minutes frontline, et cetera. Now, in some of my own writing, we discussed this a little bit in the book as well. I think our idea of who is a leader, especially in the 1980 sanctuary movement that needs to be challenged because the people who donned a bandana who couldn't utter their real name, right? They spoke with pseudonyms, uh, in disguise.

[00:21:09] Those are leaders in my book. And I think in everyone's book who studies this movement because they're offering their testimonies. They're still going before congregations. In some cases, it's a really traumatizing and harrowing story to share. And they're doing that over and over and over to mobilize this movement. And I would consider them as much of a leader for their role in this and the courage as someone who is doing what they call border runs, right?

[00:21:34] Like getting, picking up someone from, from, um, Nogales across the border to Nogales in this side of the U.S. Um, yeah, that's another way of thinking about it, right? Is who do we consider leaders? And if we're only going to consider folks who get sort of the publicity, I think we're going to have a really skewed portrait of who a leader of the movement is. And I think that can also remediate a little bit of sort of this paternalism that one might read into the movement, that one might read into the movement. If you're just looking primarily at like media sources.

[00:22:05] Yeah. I mean, it's kind of, it got me thinking like, uh, we shouldn't look at people as leaders based on the fact that they did or did not get an A in speech class effectively. You know, right. Exactly. You're a great public speaker and that, that certainly has its uses in it. It does sound like to some degree early on, um, they were sort of used as a prop as it were, um, you know, to, to try to, uh, mobilize, uh, people.

[00:22:30] And there's certainly a need for that, uh, to some degree, obviously, like you want to garner sympathy and get people to, to get off their butts and actually help. Um, and again, like we said earlier, um, really kind of pushing their, their representatives to, to affect change, like real change.

[00:22:48] Um, but you know, you should not be looked at as, as, uh, someone who was not a leader or was not fundamentally helpful, um, in, in promoting this cause just because you're not a gifted public speaker. Exactly. And the case we get, um, in the eighties, I'm sticking mostly to the eighties. I mean, the first three chapters of the book on the eighties and then the last three on sort of new sanctuary movement. My head right now is really in the archives of the 1980s. I'm looking at it.

[00:23:14] I mean, as of this morning, still, um, the assumption of like, who is a refugee to begin with? Right. So many of the folks who were uprooted, they're catechists, people giving religious instruction on the op, auspices of the Catholic church, but they're doing also literacy campaigns or they're trying to start a cooperative or they're a union leader. That's all read as red. Red R E D is sort of this red baiting, right? Um, let's root them out. This is the enemy of the state.

[00:23:44] And so in many cases, it's catechists, very faithful, central American context, very faithful Catholics who are doing the work basically of liberation theology. They're forming base Christian communities to understand why there is poverty and more than just a simple, simple thing. Let's throw money at this, at this endeavor to understand the structural inequalities that cause poverty in the first place. So a lot of it is really grounded in liberation theology.

[00:24:11] And the folks you have coming over as refugees are people who have gotten in trouble, who have found their name on a death list, who were told by the family, hey, the police came looking for you and they just up and left. So in many cases, they came with a good amount of, of organizing wherewithal or sanctuary or sorry, of organizing know how to say, I'm not just someone who's coming because I'm poor. In many cases, people weren't necessarily poor kind of going against the whole argument. They're all economic, you know, migrants.

[00:24:41] These are people who didn't want to leave, but were forced out. And when they came, they knew how to organize and they put that to work here in the U S. And again, another reason to consider them a leader of the movement. Yeah. I think that's one thing that often gets lost in, in the sort of 24 seven news cycle is just this idea. Like I pointed this out. I did a, um, episode on immigration just to talk about the reality of the legal system and, and what's in place currently.

[00:25:08] And just to try to help educate people and just put that information out there. And one of the things that has always struck me, um, especially with the, the side that likes to use the, the legal aspect as, as their argument, you know, like, well, they just need to do it legally. Just like our forefathers did. I'm like, yeah, you need to look at the history. It's not quite that cut and dry. But also there's this human aspect to it that I think about often.

[00:25:36] And, and what I would do in a situation as a parent to a young girl. And if I were in a situation where there was violence around me and, um, my daughter's life is at risk, what would I do at what, to what length would I go through to protect my daughter? Um, you know, what I leave the country and move to another country. Yeah, absolutely. I would, I would do whatever it takes, you know, but I won, you know, we, we, we talked about this in the podcast.

[00:26:05] You know, in some, in some cases, like many of us won the human lottery. We happen to be born at this time in this country where, you know, we really, most of us don't live a day-to-day life or existence where gunshots are happening outside or bombs aren't dropping in our backyards. And so it's easy for us to sit from the comfort of our recliner here and say, well, just do it the right way.

[00:26:32] Like we're not faced with, you know, our own mortality on a daily basis. So it's very easy for us to make that comment. But when faced with a similar situation, I think a lot of those same people would do exactly what a lot of the immigrants are doing today, which is running for their lives, trying to protect their loved ones and their family. And absolutely like, you know. Yeah.

[00:26:55] One of the most powerful lines from, uh, one of the refugees who gives testimony in the eighties is it was better to flee than to wait for death. And that really summarizes it for me of that's how bad conditions had again. These are folks who did not want to leave necessarily.

[00:27:12] And condition made it such that, you know, there's, um, and people came, I mean, in some cases there's one guy who speaks about having, um, carrying around still with him the note that was sent to him about he's on, he's next on the list basically. And that's, what's often sort of used as like, oh, that's a threshold for, or that's, that's one way of, of documenting a well founded fear of persecution.

[00:27:36] But even then, I mean, again, the numbers were so low of people getting, um, actually being granted asylum that they just decided it was better to not even apply and live this sort of this underground life in the United States from safe house to safe house. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You gotta do what you have to do to protect your loved ones and yourself. I get that. Um, so we have listeners, you know, uh, obviously you, you, you mentioned it, you looked into the podcast a little bit, so you know a little bit about the listening audience.

[00:28:06] Um, we have a lot of listeners who have spent years deconstructing what they no longer believe. Um, at some point you have to ask what you're going to build in its place. You know, we, we always talk about deconstruction and reconstruction. That's why we have the brackets around the D and the E. So it's destruct deconstruction and construction. Um, some people miss that part. Um, so, uh, what does the sanctuary movement teach us about moving from deconstruction into actual moral action?

[00:28:36] That's a great question. And, um, to the fuller answer, I would point, um, readers to the, to the epilogue where we lay out, um, why we still believe in the power of sanctuary. And so just to give you maybe just a couple of, of, of sort of reasons or our examples here. Um, number one, I want to start by saying the construction, I think, I mean, deconstruction is really hard, hard work, if you will. Right.

[00:29:01] To sort of do away with things that were previously thought that were previously believed, especially if they were attached to like heaven or hell sorts of issues. That's hard work. I want to, um, be mindful of how that, how hard that is at the same time. I think it's really hard to do construction kind of work. And that can also be really intellectually taxing, right? How can you turn a, a, a text that at some point into the text?

[00:29:30] In deconstruction process connoted terror or trauma. How can you turn that into a text of hope? And I, I think one of the things that sanctuary teaches us quite well is it really does, um, uplift this, the second of the greatest commandments that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 22. Right? So, I mean, if, even if you go back to like the 10 commandments, all right, 10 commandments, the first ones about have no, you know, no graven images, no other God before me.

[00:29:58] The first half or so really help us understand what the greatest commandment is. Love the Lord, your God with all your heart. The second half of the commandments, more or less help us understand that second greatest commandment. Love your neighbors yourself. Right? So all that language about, you know, don't, don't cover, uh, don't covet neighbor neighbor's property. Uh, don't commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Those are all instructions. I think teaching the way of loving the neighbor as oneself.

[00:30:25] And I think there's a way in which you could understand the, the, the legalistic approach of the commandments and the rest of the 542 or so, or is it 613, 613 commandments, right? Throughout the, throughout the, um, the, the, um, mosaic texts or the, or the Hebrew Bible, the law of Moses, if you will. Versus if you get the spirit of that and Jesus says that upon all the commandments or hang all the commandments on these few things.

[00:30:54] I think, uh, the process of construction, I think should begin with the words of Jesus. Um, it's not just because I think it leads us towards an approach that values human life. Um, one that is a, of a pacifist approach as well. But the, the examples that Jesus gives in his teachings, right?

[00:31:19] The good Samaritan, um, from Luke 10, the, um, Matthew 25, the sheep on the right hand, the goats on the left. But even the story of Jesus, like you open up the new Testament, you get to the book of Matthew within the first couple of pages. I think probably the second page, depending on the font size of your Bible, right? You're going to run to the story of Jesus and his family fleeing for their lives in exile, in migration. So it's even built into the story of the Holy family that migration is part of this biblical arc that people need to flee.

[00:31:49] And sometimes against if, you know, um, if one is put in the position to challenge state authority, something that that's what needed. So one of the, um, uh, the woman who takes sanctuary in 2006 and kicks off the new sanctuary movement. She has this quote that she says, she says, I'd rather obey God than man. I'm like, Oh, I can't, I know she's getting that. I think it's acts five or so. I think it might be one of Peter's discourses like, Oh yeah, I see what you're doing there.

[00:32:15] Um, there's, there's that, but there's also when Paul escapes, um, you know, after his conversion, right? He's let down in the basket. If he just did things as he should, right. Or as Peter did things as he should, they followed the law. I mean, I don't know. Peter would have probably been killed much sooner. So it would have Paul, but there are ways in which, um, to sum it up very briefly, uh, the sanctuary organized in the eighties, uh, Darlene Nagorski said, she said, if I'm guilty of, you know, if in the sanctuary trials in 1985, 86.

[00:32:45] If I'm guilty of something, I'm going to be guilty of the gospel. And you do see the foregrounding of the gospel message over and over with sanctuary organizers. And again, not to relegate one part of scripture over the, uh, over, you know, under another, but you do get sanctuary organizing a lot of quotations from the gospels. And, um, you know, you get Pauline material as well.

[00:33:09] And, you know, some of the Lucan material from acts, but by and large, um, people do hear to the words of Jesus to understand how to love one's neighbor. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think of even boiling it down, even, uh, even more simply, you know, I, I would be guilty of loving selflessly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's, that's. I like that one. I'm gonna note that one. That's a good. T-shirt. Yeah.

[00:33:35] Um, but also, I mean, if we take serious, also the idea of Jesus being the chief cornerstone, right? As Jesus talks about that, um, I think Matthew 21, that the stones that the builder rejected has now become the head of the corner. I think one way to do the, the, the, the work of construction after deconstruction is start with Jesus as a chief cornerstone in this process. And I think there is no better foundation to build on if one is on this journey of construction. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:34:02] Um, when history looks back at this period, what do you think the question will be not about what our government did, but what about, uh, what about what ordinary people did in response? That's great question. Um, I'm gonna answer it by saying some of the same things. St. Sure. Organizers said in the eighties and they asked themselves in sort of really introspective manner of. Are we, were we on the right side of history? Are we going to be on the right side of history?

[00:34:31] And one of the examples they turned to in the, in the eighties is from the thirties to the forties, the Holocaust. And they look at the apathy of Christian churches to say, we can't do that again. We need to be like the, the resistance churches who offered refuge again, part of the sanctuary tradition, right? They offered refuge to Jews and people who were fleeing, uh, Nazi persecution.

[00:34:57] And so one of the questions I think they'll ask themselves is, did we get it right? And, um, I think if you err on the side of humanity, you err on the side of love, all that as a kind of caution. I think you'll generally get it right. Yeah, I agree. I think of, um, there's a great book by one of my favorite, uh, uh, nonfiction authors, Eric Larson. I don't know if you've ever read any of his stuff. I'm not familiar. He's, he's fantastic.

[00:35:25] He writes history and in such a great, you know, he's so good at writing history. Um, it, it reads like fiction. Um, but they're these, uh, fascinating historical accounts. And he wrote a book. Um, I always get the name wrong. It's like midnight in the garden of evil or something like that. Um, but it's about, uh, the diplomat that we had stationed in Germany right before things really hit the fan. Um, and he was this simple guy. It's a story about this very simple man.

[00:35:53] When the rest of the diplomats who were assigned to different countries across the world, we're living in luxury and really taking advantage of it. He was not, he was a simple Christian man, grew up on a farm, retired to his farm, but he's warning them. You know, Hitler is this bad, bad guy, and this is not going to get better. It's going to get worse. And they just did not heed his warnings and sort of the, the thing that was shocking to me.

[00:36:18] Um, even studying world war two history in college, it was that, um, again, that apathy, uh, towards, you know, a lot of the commentary coming out of. Uh, Congress and a lot of the politicians, the U S was like, ah, they're Jews, you know? And you're like, whoa, what? And it was just this mind blowing. You're like, wow. So there was anti-Semitism, even the United States at the time. Um, just in terms of like, cause obviously we didn't get involved until way later.

[00:36:47] And part of that isn't, uh, in part because there was again, this sense of apathy, like, eh, it's not ours to get involved in. And so like, even, you know, the, the good guys, uh, you know, so to speak, you know, who helped win the war, you know, had some dirty hands in a situation as well.

[00:37:08] Yeah. Um, one of my, um, one of my favorite, uh, interlocutors or, or, or, or, um, preachers, if you will, of the sanctuary movement in the eighties is William, the Reverend William Stone Coffin Jr. of Riverside church in New York city. And he, he, he turns back to a Holocaust history quite a bit. And he says, you know, we can't look back on ourselves and say, oh, we were just being good Germans. Right.

[00:37:35] Um, and then, uh, he follows that up with this, with this line of, we must, we're at the point now where we just can't, um, we can't just, uh, resist with, with our confession. We must confess with resistance, right?

[00:37:53] It's it, you have to turn this, uh, in this, um, belief, this, this, this theology into practice at this point, which again, you won't can draw from like liberation theology from Latin America, which did mobilize a lot of sanctuary organizers, right? That we have to act. So you, you, you sit, you regard or look around, you observe, you judge, and then you act.

[00:38:17] If you don't do the acting part of it, you're sort of falling short of what it is to, to engage in, uh, liberation theology. And those, um, points all kind of came together with sanctuary organizing the, the stream, if you will, of liberation theology, but also sort of the more older gospel, older, uh, social gospel currents, right? That the gospel should necessarily be engaged. It, it should have an impact on our neighbors.

[00:38:44] And we see sanctuary, I think exemplify that very well, of course, getting things wrong. And we talk about that in the book, but also many ways that they got some of these things, right. And it could provide, um, an example or a model for folks, you know, in the future, in their action, no, not very far into the future in the present moment. Right. Of what do you do when the state has abdicated its obligation to the most vulnerable society? Yeah.

[00:39:11] Oh, that's per you, you perfectly summed up what would have been my last question. So well done, sir. Um, that was fantastic. Uh, very, uh, informative. I highly recommend folks go out and grab the book. Um, where can people get a copy and where can they stay up on top of, um, the work that you're doing? Yeah. So you can get a copy of sanctuary in America, um, directly from the Oxford university press website. That can be a little bit cumbersome. You can also though, just go on Amazon.

[00:39:41] Uh, you can go to, uh, bookstores. We'll also carry it. I believe something. So people might hear Oxford university press. You think, Oh, clunky academic title. No, not really at all. It's, um, it's through, um, Oxford's trade arm, if you will, books that they want in bookshops across the country. And so it's very accessible. It's a rather shorter read, if you will. It's fast paced. It's meant for your everyday person to be able to pick up and to engage. It's not one of these books by academics only for academics.

[00:40:11] Um, in fact, our, our charge in writing the book was again, uh, the, the intelligent and uninformed readers should be able to pick it up and, and get a good sense of, of what's going on here. And so we do a chronological sweep, but yeah, wherever books are sold, really, um, it's very available online. And, um, if folks, um, look up. Um, either me or my coauthor Sergio Gonzalez, we posted on LinkedIn on, um, in my case, I have a public Instagram profile.

[00:40:40] I, um, a copy of the, of the flyer for, um, for discounts. So by all means happy to engage with folks and, uh, would love to see where it ends up, um, where people are reading it. And this is great also for congregations to read together. Um, taking the model of Christian based communities or sort of like Bible study cell groups kind of thing. This is the kind of book we really do think can, uh, stir up critical conversations that are needed for such a time as this.

[00:41:07] Well, thank you so much. Uh, the book is fantastic. Uh, love this conversation. Uh, thanks again so much for coming on. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. If he does, does he know that I'm alive? Even here.

[00:41:34] Does she care that I doubt? Does she care that I fear? Something tells.

[00:42:32] Do you have to have blood before he looks like a soul just confined to my brain? Even so does it.

[00:43:10] It's not real. So take a breath. If God has a face, her face must look like you.

[00:43:59] Like a Tina, an Ahmed or Mildred, a Russ and his husband, Gus and their children. Face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone. Lucy born with an extra chromosome.

[00:44:24] I himself ain't taught. If you.