Ep 249 - Angela Harger Thompson - "Worst T*ts Ever" part 2

[00:00:00] And I remember, you know, eventually I just started waking up and I was having, I was waking up with anxiety and depression every day. And I talked to my therapist, I was doing telehealth sessions at the time, and I said, I feel so bad, like I'm living in Hawaii, I'm in paradise, and I'm struggling every day with anxiety and depression. And she said, Angela, paradise is not a location. And that's one of those like therapy nuggets that's like, whoa, okay, like it's okay that I am having the hardest time of my life.

[00:00:27] And I was talking to friends back home and trying to explain the fights that we were having and the tension I was feeling. And they were like, I think you should leave. I think you should come home. And I just couldn't like I was so I didn't know it at the time because I didn't have the word for it, but I was so codependent on him that it felt more comfortable to stay, even though it was really, it had gotten really painful at that point than it did to to leave and to start over.

[00:00:51] Welcome to The Deconstructionists and welcome to part two of my conversation with Angela Harker Thompson, author of the fiercely honest, darkly funny and unforgettable memoir, worst tits ever. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I strongly recommend going back and starting there.

[00:01:12] Angela shared how she survived being drugged and sexually assaulted, found herself in an abusive relationship, and eventually became trapped on a boat with a man she increasingly realized that she was not safe with. In part two, we continue exploring not only what Angela survived, but what happened afterward. The complicated work of processing trauma, reclaiming her body and her voice, and learning how to tell her story on her own terms.

[00:01:38] Before we return to the conversation, I also want to remind you about what comes next for this community. After more than a decade, we'll stop producing new episodes of the deconstructionists at the end of this year. But the conversations we've built together aren't ending. They're evolving. Our new podcast, called This Is Who We Become, is the natural next chapter. It'll explore the moments that divide a life into a before and an after, and the people we become on the other side of them.

[00:02:07] Over the coming months and weeks, we'll be sharing some early previews of what the new show will feel like, and my conversation with Angela is a perfect example. It's honest, vulnerable, occasionally funny, and ultimately centered on how a person is transformed by what they experience. We already have an extraordinary group of survivors, scientists, physicians, explorers, and other remarkable guests lined up.

[00:02:32] If you want to be among the first to hear guest announcements, release dates, and news about the upcoming trailer, please visit thisiswhowebecome.com and sign up for the mailing list. And please share it with anyone you think might connect with these stories. The more people we can bring into this community now, the more momentum we'll have as we carry everything we've built together into this next chapter. A brief note before we continue.

[00:02:57] This episode includes discussions of sexual assault, abusive relationships, trauma, and survival. Please take care of yourself as you listen. Now here's part two of my conversation with Angela freaking Thompson. Yeah, that's what's always been so interesting to me is, you know, obviously on this podcast,

[00:03:27] had all manner of guests on over the last decade. And, you know, from, you know, super academics, you know, where we're talking about, you know, deep theological concepts, philosophers, all sorts of things. But the thing that's always been attractive to me is, are the guests who come on who have, like, deeply human stories to tell that oftentimes result in some sort of transformation along the way. And I often think that, you know, at some point when I decide to retire this podcast,

[00:03:55] that that would be the natural evolution to move into something more along those lines that's a little bit more broad. You repeatedly describe your boyfriend who, you know, you're basically stuck on this ship with as someone who made you feel incredibly safe. And you've mentioned, you know, you did a great job, you know, especially in the beginning of talking about some of the ways in which he really showed up for you despite not sharing your faith.

[00:04:21] And so you mentioned in the book, you know, how he made you feel incredibly safe. Well, simultaneously acknowledging that at the time that there were some serious red flags from the very start. And obviously, like, you kind of alluded to that when you said, hey, you know, I realized early on that he was not my forever person. So how do you now, in hindsight, distinguish genuine safety from emotional dependency? I did not have a framework for or vocabulary for codependency.

[00:04:52] And so I think that I got so deep into the relationship because he was so close to me through my rape trauma. And when he offered me this invitation for adventure, I was so burnt out from hustling in L.A., from doing the hard work of healing that I said yes, and I got on that boat. And then because of COVID and the situations that were so dangerous at sea, you know, we're going through, we have 20-foot waves behind us. We're going through the intertropical convergence zones five degrees north of the equator,

[00:05:21] where it's the storms are kind of like the storms in Castaway, you know, when his plane crashes. There's lightning, and we're the tallest thing in the ocean, the boat sideways. There were just a lot of harrowing things that we had to get through together and keep each other alive. And so that completely deepened the bond of like, we have this shared experience, and we not only did it together, but we kept each other alive doing it together.

[00:05:46] So when we landed in Hawaii after the 16-day passage that was just him and myself, and things started to really unravel relationally, it took me a very long time to understand what was going on. I was so confused because he had meant so much to me. And so when we were fighting all the time, and when he wasn't resolving things with me like he used to,

[00:06:16] instead of recognizing that that was unhealthy, or how I was being unhealthy within it, it was just like this constant fight to like get that connection back that I had felt. And I remember, you know, eventually I just started waking up and I was having, I was waking up with anxiety and depression every day. And I talked to my therapist, I was doing telehealth sessions at the time. And I said, I feel so bad, like I'm living in Hawaii, I'm in paradise, and I'm struggling every day with anxiety and depression.

[00:06:45] And she said, Angela, paradise is not a location. And that's one of those like therapy nuggets that's like, whoa, okay. Like, it's okay that I am having the hardest time of my life. And I was talking to friends back home and trying to explain the fights that we were having and the tension I was feeling. And they were like, I think you should leave. I think you should come home. And I just couldn't. Like, I was so, I didn't know it at the time because I didn't have the word for it,

[00:07:15] but I was so codependent on him that it felt more comfortable to stay, even though it was really, it had gotten really painful at that point, than it did to leave and to start over. And I remember we even did a podcast in Hawaii with a friend of mine, and we were telling him this story. And he said, oh, wow, you're really codependent, Angela. And I was so offended. I was like, no, we just, we were bonded on the ocean. And I wanted to celebrate this thing with him.

[00:07:43] And to me, it made sense in my head. I always, like, justified or said, you know, but it will get better, you know, even if it felt so wrong. And so I really, you know, it took time and distance from that relationship once it completely disintegrated entirely. And I could recognize both his toxic patterns and then why I was more vulnerable to them

[00:08:07] and to putting up with them because of my codependency tendencies to recognize, okay, that's what that was. And I had to let God, like, come into those places and heal that part of me that needed or depended on someone else for my well-being, for my emotional well-being. And that's something that, you know, I'm married now to an incredible man.

[00:08:33] And that's something that I still am having to work through all the time, like when conflict comes up, to make sure that I'm not depending on him for my peace or my happiness. And so I wouldn't even say that it's a journey that I have, like, completely healed from or learned how to be completely healthy in, but it's something that I'm now aware of. And so I can step back and say, wait a second, like, he said he needs space, and I want to resolve this right now because it feels better to me to have resolution.

[00:09:02] I'm being codependent, and I'm not being healthy. And I can kind of- You're not that too personally right now. Right? I hate that disconnection. And I don't like to sit in that discomfort. And so he'll tell me he's going to go for a walk, and I'm like, I'm going to follow him. You know, like, that's my tendency. But I- Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm getting better to, like, sit in it, to recognize what that is, and then to give him the space and have a much better conversation later, you know?

[00:09:28] And so, yeah, I don't know that we as humans, like, could ever be completely healthy in our relationships. I think it is a journey of, first of all, acknowledging that we have, might have an issue like I did with codependency, and then, you know, working to not repeat that pattern in our relationships. Yeah, it's- I think it's a lifelong process. You know, similarly, my therapist once told me, he's like, look, he's like, you should never depend on someone else for your happiness. Or don't let-

[00:09:58] How do you put it? Don't let someone else control your joy. You know? Like, they don't have the right to control your joy. And so, like, I always remember that, but it's still hard. You know, it's still hard in the moment because we're human. And, like, I don't think, you know, I found myself thinking, like, I don't blame you at all in the moment. Like, here's this guy who had been the steady person for you in one of the most traumatic moments in your life. And that's a place of safety and comfort, you know, at least up front, you know, in the beginning.

[00:10:26] And so, like, I don't think anybody would fault you for leaning into that, especially when you are on a ship in this traumatic, you know, potentially traumatic moments where you're out there in wilderness, you know, you're out in nature. That's, you know. But then I also think about the movie Speed, you know, and Keanu Reeves told us never enter into a relationship in a moment of, you know, whatever it was. Vulnerability, probably.

[00:10:53] Yeah, he warned us all back in the movie Speed, back in the day. But no, I don't think anybody would fault you at all, you know, for having done that. And I think one of the things that's really cool about the way that you write it is that you, and I want to ask you about this because this is pretty brilliant, I thought, is, you know, I think a lot of readers, their instinct is to really sort of, like, find themselves liking your ex-boyfriend, you know, at the beginning.

[00:11:24] Until, you know, you kind of see that, like, well, maybe he's not all great, you know. But I think it follows, you know, your journey. You know, it takes readers along in a way where they're sort of, you know, in a less, obviously, lesser degree, but going through similar emotions to, I imagine, what you did, you know, in going through it personally. But you kind of take readers on that journey, and so they're kind of feeling those things as they go along.

[00:11:51] Yeah, I think it was really important to me that, because after everything happened and how crazy things got as the book goes on, a lot of people just couldn't even conceive of why I ever would have been with him in the first place. Like, why would I have been with an older man who didn't share my faith? Why would I have gotten on that boat? And so I really wanted to paint the picture of the why, like, what he meant to me, who he was.

[00:12:15] And, you know, there's a scripture in the Bible about God using a donkey to talk to one of the prophets, right? And it's like, God really used my boyfriend in a lot of ways because he can do that. And, like, again, like, that faith jacket has to get a little bit bigger. And so I wanted to show the absolute de-evolution of a love story as it happened.

[00:12:44] And so that's my hope is that people do fall in love with him at the beginning, and then they can crawl into my skin and understand why I made the decisions that I made. And, yes, they eventually led to, you know, a certain amount of chaos, but there had to be a why. And so that's why I started it where I did. And, you know, it's interesting because people, some people read it and they're like, oh, he seems so great. And other people are like, oh, I could see things from the very beginning.

[00:13:10] And so I just love getting people's feedback because all I'm doing is just laying it out as it happened, but how people respond to it. And I think also maybe if they've had someone in their life and they have a similar experience, you know, then they can identify it maybe faster. Well, and I think it shows a little nuance. Like human beings are complex and we're not all good and we're not all bad. We're very nuanced and complex, you know, animals.

[00:13:38] And I think it just does a great job of showing just that. And I love the fact I want to go back to what you just said about, you know, God, like giving you the people you needed in the moment. And I've always felt this way that like I think sometimes people come into your life for a season, you know, because that's those are the people you need in that moment. But they're not necessarily meant to be there indefinitely. You know, just they're there for that season and that's okay. And then your life maybe takes a different trajectory.

[00:14:08] Yes. And that is so antithetical to the way that I was raised where you date for marriage and you don't, you would never be in a relationship with someone that you couldn't possibly marry. And like, I think that it took a lot of unprogramming through the various things that I went through to be able to accept that it was okay that I was with him and that I didn't need to know the future and this was for now. And, you know, I see him even now after everything is still having played a very pivotal role in my life.

[00:14:38] Like just the invitation into this great adventure that has given me so much story. And, you know, if you look at the back of my book, he's the first person that I acknowledge in my acknowledgements. And I say, thank you for inviting me on the vote and giving me so much material that I had to write this book. So I totally agree with that.

[00:15:00] And I think that it's really just black and white thinking that says, you know, we can't have this person for this season or, but are you going to marry them? You know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you know, you, you have this like crazy experience and like you mentioned earlier, journaling.

[00:15:21] And I, I, I'm one who really believes that, you know, talking things out or at least putting it out there, just expressing it, so to speak from your body, whether it's verbally or in a journal. I think it's really like healthy and, and it just, sometimes you just need to get it out, you know?

[00:15:42] And so talk about a little bit about like through journaling and then through obviously therapy, but then ultimately for the first time, cohesively putting it all in one spot in this book. Um, how did that change? Um, how did that change not just your beliefs, but your image of God, you know, coming out of it? I believe so much in the power of healing through telling our story.

[00:16:04] And I didn't necessarily realize that that's what I was doing through journaling, but, you know, all through the healing after my rape, I was journaling and I was putting down everything that I was feeling and experiencing. But also more importantly, like the dreams that I still had for my life, because I had to keep dreaming or I would have given up. I would have gone back to Texas, left LA. And so when I went on the passage and I got on the boat, I brought a journal as well.

[00:16:31] And I was really sitting there writing everything out, all the anxieties I was having because of COVID and the passage. And, um, when I would get into conflicts with my boyfriend, once we were in Hawaii, I would journal and I would write out what I was feeling. Cause I was so confused in my head from what he was telling me and what I was thinking and the ways that he was causing me to second guess myself. And it was really interesting because when I went, when I said, okay, there's so much more to the story and I need to write a book.

[00:17:00] It, it felt like a calling. Like it was like God had called me to write it and I had to be obedient. It wasn't just like, Hey, I think I have this great book idea. It really felt like he was leading me into the obedience and the discipline of sitting there and typing it out. Cause this, I found as I came to find out, it's not easy to write a book. Um, and I referred back to a lot of my journal when I would get to certain parts that I was writing.

[00:17:27] And I was so grateful that I had captured my emotions at the time, my questions at the time, because it, you know, it lived inside of me. It lived inside of those pages and I could then put it right there in the book and make it, um, something that was powerful that people could hopefully identify with and relate to. And I found that with every single chapter that I wrote, a new layer of my heart was healed. And so then I get to the end of the book and I'm like, wow.

[00:17:55] I mean, I was in therapy and I, you know, I was pursuing that as well alongside, but I truly feel like writing my story and, and, and sharing my voice and the truth of what happened was the biggest catalyst for my healing. And to get through that trauma and work through it. That was not something I'd ever realized about story until I had such a cathartic, tangible experience of it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can only imagine.

[00:18:24] Um, one of the things I really appreciate about the way in which you talk about healing in the book is that it's not presented, um, as linear, you know? So were there moments while you were writing where you realized that you still hadn't healed from something that you thought maybe you had put behind you? Yeah. One thing that was really weird was that I would go into this very nostalgic, sweet space.

[00:18:47] Maybe I'd be in an early chapter with my boyfriend and I would feel everything that I was feeling in the actual moment as I was writing. And then I would wake up the next day to 50 emails or texts from him about what a horrible person I was, how ugly I was, you know, just all the conflict at the end of that relationship.

[00:19:06] And it was really jarring to, um, to, uh, go back to a place emotionally and then to realize the reality of where I am actually now, you know, in this present moment. And, um, so I talked to my therapist and I was like, I don't know how to reconcile, like what I felt and who I thought he was with what is the reality now.

[00:19:30] And she was like, it's okay to grieve him like a death and to, to mourn who you thought he was. And that helped me so much to put him in the past. And then I could appreciate the story for what it was, the book for what it was and to see God's hand. You asked me how it affected my relationship with God. And it was like, okay, you're the master storyteller and you have led me to this place.

[00:19:58] And you've led me even to a place of ministry through this, through my own mistakes, because I'm very vulnerable in the book. I don't try to paint myself as the hero. Um, I share my own insecurities and codependency and the mistakes that I made and sexually. And then, um, you can still see God's protection and his hand over me throughout all of that.

[00:20:22] And to, to rescue me out of it and to say, okay, now you're going to help other people who might be in a similar situation. And, and that was my goal in writing. It was, yes, it was very healing for me, but can this be a manual for another woman to maybe recognize that she's in this type of relationship much faster than I did? And then also to have the courage to walk away and to start over. Cause it's not easy.

[00:20:48] Like at that point I was financially dependent on him and emotionally dependent on him. And just to be able to say that doesn't matter, this is toxic and I'm going to leave takes a lot of courage. So I, I really hope that someone reading it will find that courage within those pages. Yeah, that's, that's a great transition to my next question, which was really, you know, if someone's listening today, um, and they're in a relationship that feels deeply loving, but also deeply confusing.

[00:21:16] Um, what questions do you hope they begin to ask themselves? What is your gut feeling? Because we know like on a very core level when something is wrong. And I think I ignored that. I, I let my spirit shut off and I tried to use my brain and to make logic of it, um, to believe certain things that he was telling me. And what that did really is fracture me. Like my mind and my spirit were out of alignment.

[00:21:45] And it wasn't until things got so bad that they couldn't be ignored anymore. And I left Hawaii and returned to LA, um, that I, I had a whole week where I pretty much just slept in my apartment and like came back into alignment, my mind and my spirit. And I realized that my, my gut or my spirit had known something a long time before my mind could catch up to it. So I would just say like, pause, take a deep breath, check in with your gut. What do you, what is your gut telling you?

[00:22:14] What is your spirit trying to tell you? And then don't ignore it. Like I think so often there's been so many times in my life where maybe I knew something and I still was not wanting to listen to my spirit. Cause I wasn't ready for what the repercussions of that would be. Um, but I can assure you, there's always so much more peace in following your spirit because we have that gift, like that gift of intuition and wisdom.

[00:22:39] And when we follow it, even if it means that there's a lot of unknowns ahead of us, like the way in front of you will unfold. Yeah, that's good. Um, if the Angela who boarded that sailboat, uh, could sit across from the Angela sitting here today. What conversation do you think they'd have and what do you hope they would both still recognize in each other?

[00:23:05] Well, I would applaud her for her sense of adventure and her courage to do what she was doing. Cause now that I've been through it all, I see how scary some of those situations were. So I would applaud her for that. And I think that she would just be amazed that, that, hey, I want to escape LA and have a fun time would turn into a documentary, a memoir, a course, and the ability to help other women in situations.

[00:23:34] Like, I think that would absolutely blow her mind because I, I wanted to make a documentary. I hoped it would be something cool, but I had no idea everything that that would lead to by getting on that boat. Um, and I think I would just, I would have a lot of compassion for her and I would say, you're so brave. Like, it's good that you got on the boat. I still would have gotten on that boat even after everything. Oh man.

[00:24:01] Uh, before I get to my last question, got to ask, cause we, we teased this at the beginning. How did, how'd you come up with the title of the book? Yeah. So, um, like I said, things really completely unraveled in Hawaii and I realized how toxic everything was. And, um, when we broke up, I started getting just an endless string of emails and text messages about how ugly I was, how fat I was, how no man would ever want me.

[00:24:26] And, uh, one of the emails that I got from my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend was, I changed the name of your documentary from quarantine at sea to worst tits ever. And when I got that, like, I was like, who says that to someone? And, but, but after some time I was like, oh my goodness, that's the title of my book. Like it, it has to be.

[00:24:52] And, you know, people were like, are you sure you want that to be the name of your book? It was a little spicy. And, uh, my dad, especially, you know, and remember the culture I was raised in and he was like, please, please do not call your book that. But, and I considered watering it down and calling it worst tata's ever for a while, but it just did not land the same.

[00:25:12] And it was like, it has to be what he emailed because I have to take what he meant to tear me down and insult me and take back my power, you know, and make it something actually incredible and hilarious. I mean, it catches, it catches your attention. So, you know, thanks for the marketing, right? Exactly. And I don't have to tell people the title once, like the name of my book is worst tits ever. Like when they go to Amazon, they're going to remember when they type it in the search bar. Absolutely. That's amazing.

[00:25:42] Well, um, last question for you, cause I know we're, we're running short on time here, but this book is filled with moments where you genuinely believe God was leading you. Some of those moments led to incredible beauty, uh, while others ultimately led to profound heartbreak. For people who are deconstructing certainty itself, which is something we talk a lot about, uh, what have you learned about holding deep spiritual conviction with genuine humility? Can we trust our discernment without becoming certain that we're always right?

[00:26:12] Yeah. You know, this is a very timely question too, because, um, I recently, uh, experienced a miscarriage and I had so much faith during that entire pregnancy that my baby was going to be okay. And, um, when I lost my baby, then I had this whole question that you're asking me now, like how, how can we feel like God is reassuring us or leading us?

[00:26:38] And then the outcome doesn't look like we hoped for or anticipated. And, you know, I think the answer there, there is no easy answer. These are the things that we go through life and we, we say the big whys, you know, but one of the things that God has just shown me is that he's with me. That night when I was raped, I got this image of him when I cried out, why?

[00:27:04] Like I saw Jesus sitting at the edge of that bed, the bed that I was raped on and he was weeping and Jesus wept, you know? And I say, why did I think that everything was fine with my pregnancy and it wasn't? And Jesus is there and he's with me in it. And so that's not an answer, but it's the comfort that I've had to come to experience and what ultimately will deepen my walk with him and my trust in him.

[00:27:30] And I think that a big thing that we get to do as humans is hold two things at one time. Like we can, I can hold the hope to have another baby and I can hold the fear of knowing what happened in my last pregnancy. And, and it doesn't have to be one or the other. And that, that is where God meets us in the middle of holding two things at once. So I'm just, I don't have the answers. I just am grateful for his presence.

[00:28:00] Yeah, that's, um, I'm so sorry to hear that. And, um, yeah, that's, it's probably the best we can do. You know, it's, it's that never ending question that people always ask, especially in the, in the face of, of tragedy. It's just like, why, why, you know? And, and, uh, at some point, you know, it's just like, you have to leave it up to mystery and, but know that God always walks alongside us.

[00:28:24] And, um, and, and, and like I said, uh, like we talked about before, you know, oftentimes like you'll realize that the people who show up, you know, that, that, uh, that they're there for a reason. They're there for a purpose. And, you know, we just get through it sometimes. And so, and there's such a gift. There's always a way through and even if all you can do each day is one step in front of the other, that's all you have to do. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

[00:28:52] Um, before I let you go, where can people go to obviously Amazon? Uh, but if they don't want to support Amazon, like where's the best place to get a copy of your book, stay up on top of, of, of what you're up to watch the documentary, all that good stuff. Angela Harger productions.com that has links to the documentary. You can even order a Blu-ray. It has my memoir, the link to the paperback, the hardback, and then as well as the storytelling course. Perfect. Well, thank you so much.

[00:29:22] We'll have, uh, links in the show notes and, uh, thank you so much again for, for coming on today. This was a pleasure. Thank you, John. Thank you so much. I'm alive. He's got even here. Does she care? That I doubt. Does she care? That I fear. Something tells.

[00:30:25] If God has a face. His face must look like yours. Did God kill his kid?

[00:30:47] Did he have to have blood before he looks like a man to my brain? Even so.

[00:31:26] So take a breath. If God has a face.

[00:31:53] Her face must look like yours. Face like a Tina. An Ahmed or Mildred. A Russ and his husband. Gus and their children. Face like a Kim. A Ted or Tyrone.

[00:32:24] A Lucy born with an extra chromosome. Could invent thearente. Wall you say What about a damage? To your feet. He wants to die.