Ep. 246 - Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray "Fish With Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God" pt. 1

[00:00:00] And I tell my students, you know, are you have to have surgery and your surgeon rushes into the room and says, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm running late. You don't mind if I don't wash my hands or sterilize my instruments, do you? Because after all, germ theory is just a theory. You'd be out of there. Are you going to jump out of an airplane without a parachute because gravitational theory is just a theory? No, evolution theory carries the same weight. In addition to being a

[00:00:29] held and supported over decades of time by multiple labs, multiple scientists, a science theory has predictive power. A theory that is valid will predict where we will find new information. And time and time and time again, evolution theory has proved to be invaluable in predicting new knowledge.

[00:00:55] John Williamson Welcome to The Deconstructionists. I'm your host, John Williamson.

[00:01:06] John Williamson And before we get into today's conversation, I want to take a moment to talk about something new. If you were paying attention to the feed yesterday, you probably noticed that we released a trailer for a brand new podcast called Who We Become. And if you haven't listened to that yet, I'd encourage you to go back and check it out. As I talked about in the trailer, after more than 10 years of doing The Deconstructionists, it feels like the right time to begin thinking about what comes next. The Deconstructionists has always been about curious.

[00:01:36] John Williamson It's been about asking questions, it's been about asking questions, challenging assumptions, listening to people with different perspectives, and hopefully giving all of us a little more room to think for ourselves. And Who We Become feels like a natural evolution of that. Instead of focusing primarily on religion, theology, and deconstruction, the new show is going to explore the moments that fundamentally change a human life.

[00:02:00] John Williamson It's been about to be a natural evolution of the experiences that we have. And I'll be sitting down with people who have survived extraordinary circumstances, made remarkable discoveries, endured unimaginable loss, taken enormous risks, or simply experienced something that completely changed the way they understand themselves and the world around them. Because ultimately, I'm fascinated by what happens after the thing happens.

[00:02:29] John Williamson It's been about to be a natural evolution of the past. How do those experiences change us? How do those experiences change us? And who do we become because of them? There will be plenty more to say about all of that in the months ahead. The Deconstructionists isn't disappearing tomorrow. We still have some fantastic conversations coming your way. And we'll have a proper goodbye when the time comes.

[00:02:48] John Williamson But if you've spent any part of the last 10 years listening to the show, I really hope you'll come along with me for what comes next. You can find out more and join the mailing list at thisiswhowebecome.com. John Williamson Okay. Speaking of conversations that feel very much at home here on The Deconstructionists, today we get to welcome back someone we've had the pleasure of talking with before, Dr. Janet Kellogg-Ray

[00:03:12] John Williamson One of the things I've always appreciated about doing this show is that occasionally we get to circle back to a guest. Not simply to repeat the conversation we had the first time, but because their work continues to evolve. Our questions continue to evolve. And sometimes, we are different people when we meet again. And this conversation with Janet gave us exactly that opportunity.

[00:03:37] John Williamson There was so much to unpack that we're breaking our conversation into two parts. And today, you're hearing part one. So without further ado, here's part one of my conversation with the always thoughtful and insightful Dr. Janet freaking Kellogg.

[00:04:02] All right, so excited to have a guest that I've had on a couple times before. She's coming back for a third time with a brand new book. Janet Kellogg-RayRay, thank you so much for coming back on again. Hi, John. Thanks so much for inviting me. It's always fun here.

[00:04:17] Absolutely. And I had to laugh because when your publicist reached out, you always have the best titles for your books. And so it's like, you know, baby dinosaurs on the ark, you know, and like you always come up with great names. And so once again, you know, you nailed it. Like, does your publicist just laugh when you like come up with ideas or what is that conversation like?

[00:04:42] Janet Kellogg- Initially, yes. And then I think they came to expect it of me. But just, you know, a secret here, I'm a bit obsessive and I have to come up with the title before I can write the book. But it just, it kind of guides the book in some way. I thought it's not worth writing if I don't have a fun title.

[00:05:00] So I love it. Well, the new one's Fish with Feet, which I love. I saw it. Well done. Well done. So before we get into it, like I said, you know, obviously you've been on before. So I want to spend too much time going through your history. But for those, you know, we always have new listeners. So for those who are who are new to your work, give people like a brief background on what you do and how you got into writing books with awesome titles.

[00:05:25] Janet Kellogg- Thanks. Well, I am in my 21st year of being a biology and science teaching adjunct at the University of North Texas. I have done several things in my teaching career, usually focused around biology teaching science of some sort. I started out as a middle school science teacher.

[00:05:49] Janet Kellogg- And I've done gifted education for science kids. But I really found my home with the university kids. I really enjoy that. And how I got into writing the books is an interesting story. I was raised like a lot of people in a tradition that no more would have questioned the literal nature of the Genesis creation story than they would have been in the future.

[00:06:19] I don't have questioned the existence of God or Jesus. It just wasn't done. And I honestly don't remember any sermons mentioning evolution coming from the pulpit growing up because it was just the status quo. It was just the default position.

[00:06:38] Janet Kellogg- And so I went through school, went to middle school. And I had an amazing middle school education for the 1970s. It was a very progressive school. And believe it or not, in the 70s, for seventh graders, science was an elective.

[00:06:58] Janet Kellogg- And so I had decided I was going to take choir for my elective because I thought it sounded fun. But my dad was a teacher in that middle school. And he voluntold me that I was going to be taking the science elective. And I absolutely credit him for changing the trajectory of my life.

[00:07:17] Janet Kellogg- This was a wonderful science class, even by any middle school, high school standards. And we did lots of dissections. And I distinctly remember having the thought, no vocabulary, no vocabulary at all to express these thoughts. But I distinctly remember having the thoughts as we were studying the different animal groups, that these things don't look individually and specially created.

[00:07:45] Janet Kellogg- They look like they are modifications, and add-ons and takeaways of the same systems, that somehow all of these animals seem connected. They don't seem to be separate and specially created. But again, I had no vocabulary to express that. I went on to high school, on to university at a Christian university where I majored in biology,

[00:08:13] Janet Kellogg- And our evolution education consisted of, here it is in the textbook, read it, you need to know it. The end. Janet Kellogg- And so there I went, teaching middle school science, was on the mommy track for a while. And about 10 years after I graduated from my university,

[00:08:34] Janet Kellogg- A guy who had no connection to our university, a young earth creationist, decided to take down the careers of two of the biology professors, Janet Kellogg- One of whom was my favorite professor. I taught labs for him. Because by that time, in the decade after I had graduated, Janet Kellogg- This Christian university started overtly teaching evolution for what it is, the foundational principle of all modern biology.

[00:08:58] Janet Kellogg- So long story short, one guy weathered the storm and it completely destroyed the other guy. Janet Kellogg- My favorite professor. He was a very kind and quiet and gentle man. And it just destroyed him that he was being presented to this broad publicity as being this atheistic professor who is destroying the faith of our young adults who are sending off to this Christian college.

[00:09:25] Janet Kellogg- And so that was, that was a major turning point for me. At that point, as a young adult, Janet Kellogg- I started reading more on my own, reading people of faith who accepted evolution. And because I had a biology background, Janet Kellogg- It wasn't a hard sell. So I started writing blogs. The blogs turned into books. And my goal is always this.

[00:09:52] Janet Kellogg- I want to write for people like I was. People who have questions, but they don't have a vocabulary to ask the questions. Janet Kellogg- You have to have a vocabulary to even start asking your questions. And so my books are a dipping your toe in the water and, Janet Kellogg- And you know, answering those questions that were lurking in the back of your mind, but you just didn't have the vocabulary or the background or the courage to ask questions.

[00:10:23] Janet Kellogg- Oh, that's, that's a great explanation. It's kind of interesting because you mentioned that your dad was the one who really pushed for the science course. And, uh, you know, my assumption, you know, when you said that was that, well, isn't it as probably the same person that influenced your sort of religious upbringing as well. So did he have any inclination, um, of what you might encounter within the science class? And did that create some conversations with him later down the line?

[00:10:47] Janet Kellogg- Well, much later, like now, in the last, I mean, since, since the time when baby dinosaurs came out and actually before I should say before, because the blog started probably five, 10 years before baby dinosaurs. Janet Kellogg- But, um, no, because at the time public schools in general were not teaching evolution and they certainly were not in middle school.

[00:11:14] Janet Kellogg- And so, you know, he just wanted me to do something more academic and not that, um, uncontrolled, undisciplined choir course that he saw in the room across from his. Janet Kellogg- My dad is very, very type a very organized, but I have told him this. I, I credit that with changing the trajectory of my life. I fell in love with science. Steve McLaughlin Yeah. Has that changed his perspective at all? Janet Kellogg- Would you say? Janet Kellogg- Absolutely.

[00:11:43] Janet Kellogg- You know, I, my dad makes a hi, dad. He always listens. My dad makes an appearance in, uh, this book fish with feet, um, because. Janet Kellogg- My dad is, is a big questioner. My own adult children accuse me of being the same thing. They call me the questioning beast or the questionnaire, lots of precious nicknames. Um, but I tell them I come by naturally, uh, because my dad will ask me, um, will explain,

[00:12:13] you know, this particular aspect of say human evolution. And then what he says will be, well, then what was before that? Well, what was before that? Well, what came before that? And so that was another goal of this new book was to answer the question. What was before that? What was before that? And so, yeah, he, he, he likes to discuss things with me. He likes to send me, uh, uh, links to his favorite intelligent design or concordist, uh, writers.

[00:12:43] And I'm always willing to read and, you know, he'll usually say, I know you don't agree with this person, but just tell me what you think. So no, it's a great relationship there. My dad's always been one of my biggest cheerleaders. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think there's something that's, uh, some people would, would say like, Hey, you know, when, when you're dealing with, um, family members or interacting with family members who have very different beliefs, you know, that can be really problematic. I've always viewed it as something that's actually a good thing because, you know,

[00:13:13] typically because they're family, it's not a situation where like you can debate with a stranger and then never have to see them again. Right. Right. There's an ongoing dialogue, hopefully with family member where you can continue to come back to that and continue to have those conversations and it can be a really beautiful thing. So yeah, exactly. I love that. Well, you answered a couple of the questions I had right out, right out of the gate. Um, and so, you know, some would say like a lot of pushback that, you know, you might get in

[00:13:42] sort of the evangelical space is that you, well, you can't be both a science believer, you know, and a Christian that's just impossible, but I've always found it odd specifically the, the question of evolution as a strange hill to die on. Uh, because when we take a look at what the Bible actually says, like, it doesn't really have a lot to say in terms of the how behind it. It's more speaking to the why it's kind of, and so I've always viewed it as like, you know,

[00:14:11] like reading a biography on, uh, Theodore Roosevelt and wondering why it doesn't have recipes for his favorite banana bread in there. I'm like, well, it's not a cookbook guys. Like it's not supposed to. And so I've always found it odd that people are so, um, stuck, uh, to this idea that it has to be seven literal six literal days, however you want to look at it. You know, I guess the seventh day is the day of rest, but, um, literal human days where,

[00:14:36] you know, if you look at the, uh, original Hebrew, it, it's kind of foggier than people think, you know, and so why, you know, in your experience and having conversations with folks and trying to disseminate, you know, good information through your work, you know, what sort of, what, what is your observation in terms of why is that something that people hold so strongly to? Well, what, by tackling this topic of human evolution, we'll see, you may be my only friend

[00:15:06] after this one comes out because you know, many people will actually kind of be okay. If you're talking about evolution and Darwin's voyage and the, the shape of the finches on the Galapagos Island and, and how the, the shape of the, the finch beaks on the Galapagos Island and how those adapted to their, uh, whatever food source was there and the tortoises shell and how

[00:15:35] they adapted to their food sources there. And you know, we'll even talk about antibiotic resistance and, and, and, and we're kind of, some people were kind of okay with that, but then you get to the humans and you tell me that I came from a monkey and worse than that. You told me that you told me

[00:15:57] that I came from a, a cell and some kind of muckety mop primordial soup somewhere eons ago in time. And that is a hard no, it is a hard no, get off the bus. We're stopped the bus. We're getting off. And so you're right. There is a category of people of faith who evolution is in general,

[00:16:22] is just the hill to die on. And, and we can get more into that, but specifically human evolution. There are some people who may be willing to talk to you about evolution when it comes to it, adaptations and bird beaks, but you tell them that humans are descended from primates. Monkeys is always the big one. And we can talk more about that today. And then all of a sudden

[00:16:51] you've offended me. You have offended me. It, the, when you read about, um, uh, when you read about people, um, talking about human evolution and opposing human evolution, invariably it's couched in terms of this is an insult. You were saying, I am just an animal.

[00:17:17] You're saying that I'm just a creature. This is demeaning. It's an insult. And then here's the bottom line. How can I be a creature? How can I come from the muck and be God's image bearer? Are you saying God is a monkey? You know, cue to the second book there, but it's demeaning something about human evolution triggers, um,

[00:17:47] a, a reaction with us that it's, it's insulting. Um, and you know, it's, it's not just 21st century, uh, people of faith. Uh, the famous scopes trial was not about teaching evolution. Little known fact scopes got in trouble for teaching human evolution. It wasn't the evolution of, of plants and flowers and

[00:18:13] puppies and kittens. It was for violating Tennessee's Butler act, which was, uh, which was an act that forbade teaching of human evolution. Uh, there was another big trial in the 21st century, 2005, uh, it's called Kitzmiller versus Dover, and it's been called the scopes trial of the 21st century. Uh, the, uh,

[00:18:36] Kitzmiller trial was about teaching intelligent design in public school classrooms as an alternative to evolution. Yet, if you read, uh, news stories and things that came out around that trial, uh, interviews with the local townsfolk interviews with the school board, it wasn't simply evolution. It was the fact

[00:19:05] they didn't want their children being told that they are nothing more than apes, that they are monkeys, monkeys, and they know, they know it's not true. Their children know, know it's not true. They're made in the image of God. And so all this monkey business isn't correct. Oh, that's, that's fascinating. I've never heard that distinction before, but it makes a lot of sense

[00:19:30] because, you know, I've found that within Christianity specifically, and I'm, you know, I'm not saying that it doesn't occur in other religions. It's just the one that I know the best. Um, there's this desire to be special, you know, um, Christianity, like we are, we are special and unique in ways that others aren't. And in some ways we certainly are, but like, you know, it, it kind of takes away from the uniqueness of like, poof, and then God placed human beings directly upon the earth. Um, as opposed to God, you know, working through

[00:20:00] creation that evolves over millions and millions of years. You know, it's, I've never, again, I've never understood why that matters, you know, so much to people. I'm like, well, what if one of God's days was a billion years? Who cares? Like, does it really matter? Like, you know, but yet here we are. So, um, but you mentioned in the book, you talk about the fact, and you just touched on this, that most books on human evolution begin with apes or early humans. And, um, for those listening,

[00:20:28] there's a really cool documentary on Netflix about a, um, uh, I think it's called the cave of bones. Have you seen this? No, I've heard of it. Yeah. I need to see it. Oh, it's awesome. My daughter really got into documentaries for a second and, uh, my 12 year old and fascinating. It's just another branch of sort of the evolutionary, uh, scale, but, um, but you intentionally start, as you mentioned, much further back in the tree of life. Why was that

[00:20:53] important to you? That was very intentional. Uh, two reasons. First of all, to answer that question of, well, what was before that and to hit head on that concept of humans coming from monkeys. I wanted to hit that head on and demonstrate why that doesn't even begin to tell the whole story. So what my

[00:21:18] intent was to do with this book was to anchor the story of humans at the very root of the tree of life, at the very, very beginning. And then from there, uh, present an unfolding picture of how we got to be where we are today, you know, a population of modern humans. And so I wanted to place humans firmly in the

[00:21:48] broader, bigger picture of the story of life on earth. Biologically, we are not special. As you said, we are a part of this whole big, beautiful planet and the history of every living thing, every bacteria, every plant, every animal that's ever lived. Their story is also

[00:22:15] our story. And so by starting back with the primordial cell, the first cell, whatever that was like, I anchored humans at that point, uh, to make the point that we are all in this together. We share ancestry. We're all part of this great tree of life. You know, what's fascinating about what you just said is it immediately makes me think about, um,

[00:22:44] some of the great, uh, spiritual fathers and mothers of history and, and, um, sort of common theme that runs throughout, uh, sort of history, especially within like the mystics where, you know, all things are sacred. So it goes from, from us being sort of special and unique and above all, you know, all the rest of creation to being, you know, we are in a garden and we're all part of this and it's all part of

[00:23:10] God's grand design. You know, that seems a more beautiful picture to me than, you know, we're just living amongst dumb animals and plants that are expendable. Right. And I, and I, I could have added this to a part of my reasoning for going back to the, to the roots of the tree of life to place humans in their spot in the family tree is to also make

[00:23:37] the point that once we are part of this branch, if so to speak of the tree of life, we're always a part of that branch. I mean, I use a lot of, of analogies from human family trees, human, uh, pedigrees, pedigree. And, and I will say, you know, you can trace your family tree back to a great, great, great, great, great grandmother, perhaps. And even though you've never met that

[00:24:05] great, great, great, great, great grandmother, you were always, always going to be a part of her lineage. You cannot decide to take yourself out of that limit lineage, just because you may have gone on to create your own lineage. You have your own children, but you're always a part of the lineages that came before you. So I go into this a little bit in the books. I think it makes the

[00:24:35] illustration really, uh, well, everybody probably remembers learning in the biology class. I tortured my own students with it, uh, learning about, uh, classification kingdoms and phylums and classes. Well, all of those things are still valid and we still use that terminology, but the more modern way of organizing life is with something called clades, c-l-a-d-e. A clade is an,

[00:25:02] is a common ancestor and all of its descendants, a common ancestor and all of its descendants, including the extinct ones. So being in a clade is kind of like the Hotel California. You know, you can check out, but you can never leave. Once you are part of a clade,

[00:25:26] you're a part of that clade for always. So mammals, mammals are vertebrates, but mammals didn't stop being vertebrates when the mammal lineage split off from the vertebrate lineage and mice didn't stop being mammals when the mice lineage split off from the mammal lineage and so on. Life has this nested

[00:25:49] quality to it. There's nests with the nest with the nest, and we carry it our bodies. The evidence of that hierarchy. For example, the motivation for the book, we are vertebrates. We have a backbone. We have an internal skeleton. Bio 101. The first vertebrates on earth were the fish. The first vertebrates

[00:26:15] were the fish. We are part of the vertebrate clade. We are part of the fish clade because specifically, the tetrapods, the four limbed animals evolved within the lobe finned fish clade. We evolved within the fish clade, not beside it, but within it. And so from lobe finned fish, we see the tetrapods.

[00:26:43] From the tetrapods, we see the reptiles and the mammals. From the mammals, we find the primates. And eventually within the primate clade, we find homo sapiens, modern humans. So the point being, it's nested. And once you're in a clade, it's the Hotel California, you can't check out. And so we're still a member of every clade from which we diverged. Just like you can't cut off your great,

[00:27:13] great, great, great grandmother just because you never knew her. Justin Donaldson That's really cool. In my brain, I imagine this sort of like very intricate network that just keeps expanding outward. Kind of not unlike the universe itself, rapidly expanding outward. It feels like that makes sense

[00:27:34] to me as someone who believes in a god of creation and creativity and that creation never stops. It just continues on. And so talk a little bit about like, because of course, people are always going to say, well, where's the evidence? You know, like what do scientists look at when they come up with, you know, these ideas? Like what are the things that that you study to come to those conclusion, I guess would be a better way to put it?

[00:28:02] Justin Donaldson Oh, well, of course, there's the fossil record. And we can talk about evidence from that. But the real smoking gun for evolution has been the ability that we've had since the late 20th, early 21st century to map the genome. We mapped the human genome. Dr. Francis Collins led that nationwide worldwide effort in doing that. And from that point on, we have an

[00:28:32] even more extensive collection of human genomes. And we have mapped the genomes of a myriad of species across our planet. And so there is fossil evidence. There is genomic evidence, which is just been stunning. And then there's also physiological evidence within our bodies,

[00:28:58] within our, the structures of our bodies, within our physiology, within our anatomy, that point toward common ancestry with other life. And so it's not just one bit of proof, so to speak here, that humans share ancestry with all life. It's multifaceted. In science,

[00:29:23] and in other fields of research, we call that triangulation. You come at it from multiple different directions, and you all converge on the same conclusion. So fossil evidence, genetic evidence, physiology, anatomy, all evidence from these disparate areas all converge and tell us that humans humans share common ancestry with all life.

[00:29:50] Does he have a body? If he does, does he? That I'm alive. He is God. Does she care that I doubt? Does she care that I fear?

[00:30:17] Something tells me God will survive.

[00:30:24] He has a face. His face must look like yours. It looks like a

[00:32:19] has a face. Her face must look like yours. It's like a Tina, an Ahmed or Mildred,

[00:32:40] a Russ and his husband, Gus and their children. Face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone, an extra crone.