What does it really mean to be present with another person?
In Part Two of John's conversation with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, the discussion moves beyond defining modern chaplaincy and into the heart of spiritual care itself.
Rather than offering easy answers or trying to fix people's pain, today's chaplains often practice something much more difficult: accompanying people through uncertainty, grief, trauma, and profound life transitions. In a culture that values certainty, productivity, and quick solutions, this conversation explores the transformative power of simply showing up.
Rev. Sally shares how contemporary chaplains understand their work—not as experts dispensing wisdom, but as compassionate companions helping people navigate some of life's most sacred and challenging moments.
Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:
- Why presence can be more powerful than having the right words.
- What chaplains can teach all of us about listening.
- The role of empathy, curiosity, and accompaniment in spiritual care.
- How grief, suffering, and meaning intersect.
- Why human connection is becoming increasingly valuable in an age shaped by technology and AI.
- What it looks like to care for people across different faiths, beliefs, and worldviews.
- How we can all become better companions to those who are hurting.
Whether you're a person of faith, someone deconstructing long-held beliefs, or simply interested in becoming more present for the people around you, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a hopeful vision of what compassionate care can look like.
Guest:
Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate), is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is the author of the forthcoming New Images of Spiritual Care, which highlights the diverse voices and innovative practices shaping contemporary chaplaincy.
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00:10 --> 00:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Does God
00:13 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the deconstructionist I'm your host John Williamson and this is part two of my conversation with Reverend Sally Miller.
00:21 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_00]: In the first episode, we explored how the image of the chaplain has changed over the past several decades.
00:26 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_00]: From a primarily Protestant religious role into a profession made up of people from a huge variety of faith traditions and worldviews.
00:34 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So today we go even deeper.
00:36 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about the philosophy behind modern spiritual care.
00:43 --> 00:54 [SPEAKER_00]: What chaplains can teach all of us about listening during moments of grief and crisis, and why genuine human connection may be one of the most important forms of care in an increasingly technological world.
00:55 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you're religious, spiritual, somewhere in between or neither,
00:59 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll find a lot to appreciate in this conversation about what it means to truly accompany another human being through life's most difficult moments.
01:08 --> 01:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's part two of my conversation with Reverend Sally Freakin Miller.
01:19 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, his face.
01:22 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I still, I kind of want to go back because I'm still fascinated and look at that.
01:28 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: There's such a blend, like a blended unit, where you've got probably chaplains who are all sorts of different backgrounds.
01:39 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, like,
01:40 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_00]: even more diverse would be, you know, the patients, you know, I'm sure you've encountered everything from, you know, atheist, humanist, wicked, Buddhist, Muslim, you know, and everything in between, you know, what would you say would be something that would be surprising to somebody in terms of if, if, you know, perhaps the patient is an atheist, you know?
02:01 --> 02:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Because from what you're telling me, it still sounds like there's a lot that can be provided by a chaplain,
02:11 --> 02:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm not even sure where to go again.
02:16 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, I'm kind of, yes, with you.
02:18 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the beauty I think of the work is the surprise.
02:23 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And that surprises an invitation to further curiosity.
02:28 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So whoever I would go be with or whoever any of my the residents with whom I co-create would go to be with the beauty of the work is if we're invited into the sacred space of their room sitting down and finding out.
02:44 --> 02:55 [SPEAKER_03]: What is it you need to process that your your leg is going to get amputated and that's going to be a profound loss because you need that for work.
02:56 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_03]: is it going to be like your family?
02:59 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_03]: There are multiple hospitalizations going on at the same time.
03:02 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it, you know, what is it?
03:05 --> 03:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it you're missing your dog?
03:08 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And we need to arrange a face time for you to see your dog while you're there, or we need to figure out a way to take you in your wheelchair.
03:16 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_03]: out to the atrium where you can actually have a half an hour encounter with your dog.
03:21 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so really it could be any of those really human needs that touch touch that part of us we're meaning and no meaning is created.
03:32 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just came up with a slogan for you guys now.
03:34 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, uh, you have a slogan.
03:37 --> 03:37 [SPEAKER_00]: problems.
03:37 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Providing the human touch and a sterile environment.
03:39 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, okay, I'm going to get to you sure it's planted for my residents.
03:45 --> 03:49 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I've been in hospitals enough to know that, you know, it's
03:56 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_00]: There's an order and a system in a way in which they run, you know, especially like an emergency department, and that sort of thing I've got family members who are, you know, in the in the health profession, you know, lots of nurses in my family, and so I think sometimes when you're in the hospital, even if it's to deliver a baby, you know, and in your spending a few nights, maybe in the hospital, like you hear all these stories about like, man, I just, you know, I had to go home for a little bit, you know, just to,
04:25 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, feel human again, you know, and then come back, you know, you always hear, you know, like bringing comforts of home, you know, and so it really sounds like, you know, chaplain's sort of provide, you know, help bridge that gap and help provide that human touch and a place that is, you know, can be very, you know, sterile.
04:48 --> 04:49 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a sterile place.
04:50 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And to your comment earlier about the Hebrew Bible and Midrash, it's a sterile place, and it's also a really storied place.
05:00 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this place holds so many sacred stories.
05:05 --> 05:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Each, the, actually, the founder of CPE was this guy named Anton Boison, and he was hospitalized for mental illness.
05:15 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_03]: And during that time, had the experience that you were describing right now that it was just the hospital was this sterile, lonely place with where human touch was not present and so he created CPE and which started with sort of Protestant ministers doing visitation, very crystal centric sort of ministerial ways, but anyway, it was rooted in the sterility and the need to
05:42 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_03]: embrace and notice the human story and lift the humanity of the human story so that people were humanized and practitioners can understand the humanity and the greater contextualized story of those that were with so that it's this humanizing experience not devoid of story.
06:06 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's beautiful.
06:10 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I'm curious about is, you mentioned sort of the elevator pitch, when walking to the room, I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you're probably navigating two different potential obstacles when walking into a room.
06:24 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, is this person in a place where they have that a need, and also,
06:31 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think a lot of people, especially within the United States, you know, have this perception, specifically of the sort of evangelizing style of Christianity where, you know, it's very much in your face and, you know, and so perhaps seeing somebody come in the room wearing a clerical collar or something of that sort.
06:53 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a chaplain badge, right?
06:54 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, might trigger some feelings there.
06:57 --> 07:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I feel like, you know, for better for worse, that's probably something you guys navigate as well.
07:04 --> 07:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And so how do you approach that, you know, and, and, and, and,
07:08 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_00]: because you did a great job earlier of saying like listen we're not in there to force our belief system on anybody so how do you articulate that in a way where you're like no no that's not what i'm here to do i'm not here to convert you i'm i'm here again to provide that human touch and you know be here for you if you need me yeah i mean
07:27 --> 07:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Certainly, we're operating in a world where we need to respect medical ethics of respecting patient autonomy, an absence, non-millifices and justice, and so proselytizing in any way or trying to convert people in the midst of weakness, you know, a time of illness would be on ethical, right?
07:49 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think part of the hurdle for
07:56 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_03]: acknowledging really the abuse and the misuse of power in some historic models of chaplaincy and also come add not come combating isn't the word I would want to use because that's also a militaristic word, but also
08:14 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_03]: holding an awareness of sort of religious trauma that a lot of people come to the hospital with.
08:21 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's a lot of theology out there that says, you are sick because you are bad.
08:28 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_03]: And so here now the chaplain comes in and is associated getting all this God projections, right?
08:35 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_03]: All the God projections of we're here to judge you and you're already being judged because you're ill.
08:42 --> 08:44 [SPEAKER_03]: all of that stuff is swirling around in the room.
08:45 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think, you know, we as chaplains come into that space wanting to be super sensitive to any former religious trauma, any current theology that's maladaptive that's causing
09:02 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_03]: for their self-harm and then sitting in a nod, judgmental space, you know, John sometimes, when I'll walk into a room, people will say, when I haven't gone to church for a lot of, a lot, a lot, a lot, however much time and I'll say, well, I'm not here to take attendance.
09:17 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm not here to take attendance.
09:19 --> 09:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Or someone will swear in front of me and then I have to tell them, you know, Reverend Sally Miller is the one who taught all of their kids to swear despite the fact that my husband is a contractor, you know, so anyway, all of these projections come at us and we just have to work with what's historically present,
09:44 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's so true.
09:46 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And like I couldn't help but think in that moment as you were sort of describing those scenarios.
09:51 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like you're meeting people oftentimes that they're most naked and vulnerable, you know, either on the, on the cusp of, of death or grief or literally just having gone through the miracle of childbirth.
10:06 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like,
10:07 --> 10:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You're really meeting people in in places and spaces where they literally are the most vulnerable, you know, they've ever been.
10:14 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, sort of handling it gently is such a beautiful thing, you know, so I would be I would be I would not be lying to tell you that I've had a spiritual care encounter with someone on a commode.
10:34 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, I mean, you know, so it is we're just we're in the body this is the place where the body is and now branch of course I asked permission to continue to enter the version was like I've been here for a while.
10:46 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to be a for a while longer.
10:47 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Come on in.
10:49 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Honent chaplain sit down.
10:50 --> 10:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I really need to talk.
10:51 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing.
10:54 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to have to, you know, do you have any particular stories that you really love of encounters, obviously, you know, can't give specifics, but generally speaking, you know, some encounters that you've had over the years that really kind of, you're like, yeah, this is why we do what we do kind of thing.
11:12 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I think they're in this work.
11:16 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_03]: There are sort of the archetypal recurrent scenarios, some of which we've already talked about, but with, I think, respecting HIPAA, I can share that, you know, I've been with families
11:34 --> 11:39 [SPEAKER_03]: when they've lost a child, the age of my oldest child.
11:39 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there's a particular family that's literally their faces and the face of their son are on my heart and mind.
11:50 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_03]: will be for the rest of my life, and every year on the anniversary of that particular loss, which happened when I was still in training myself.
12:01 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they will be with me for the rest of my life.
12:04 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I will never forget them, and being with them and cutting a lock of their sons' hair,
12:12 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_03]: to give to them after we offered prayers and blessings to his dead body, you know, it will be with me forever and that mom and that dad and their tears will be with me forever forever.
12:26 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So those moments, you know, I account, I don't take them for granted that people let people
12:41 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a perspective, I think, that sort of gets lost, you know, it, of course, like the parents, you know, and what they're going through, you know, it is is weighty and heavy and and just, you know, the nightmare that no one wants to see, you know, come true.
12:57 --> 13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but the fact that it so impacted, someone who wasn't even related to them, you know, and I'm sure you didn't know them, prior to them coming to the hospital and, you know,
13:06 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, you know, that left an imprint on you.
13:09 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, again, that's that sort of like, in all the ugliness of the seemingly arbitrary and randomness of the universe, there's that humanity, there's that human connection, there's that moment that,
13:30 --> 13:39 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is the beauty of what it means to be human and and sharing in that and it it always reminds me of it there's this
13:40 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Good friend of the podcast and Irish philosopher and I know the listeners are sick of hearing me.
13:45 --> 13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Bring this up, but it keeps coming up.
13:47 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna keep talking about it.
13:49 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_00]: But he used to do the same called pints and parables where he would travel around and he would, and he such a great speaker and he's got that beautiful Irish accent, you know.
14:01 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_00]: and he would recite these parables in this three-act story arc.
14:06 --> 14:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And the one that stuck with me because he had the entire audience in tears was one that was literally about grief.
14:12 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And without going into it because it's long and I wouldn't do it just this anyway and I don't have a cool accent.
14:19 --> 14:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But the just of the story is that there's this woman who loses a child.
14:26 --> 14:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course she's in grief, you know, this is every parent's worst nightmare.
14:30 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when tells her, well, there's this medicine man who lives in the mountains who might be able to help you.
14:35 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she goes up and takes forever to find it, but she finally locates him.
14:40 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And she said, can you help me?
14:41 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, I think I might be able to help you, but you need to collect all these different things first.
14:48 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And so basically, she goes on this massive scavenger hunt.
14:51 --> 14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the end, when she reconnects with him, he basically says, look, I can't bring your son back.
14:59 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But what he did provide was, you know, in the process of looking for all these items, you know, that that active humanity and in counting other people who shared in her grief who perhaps had also lost a child at some point and we're just alongside.
15:16 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_00]: you know her helped her heal in a way that, you know, she couldn't have otherwise, had she not encountered these other people.
15:26 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think about that, you know, when in moments like this where you talk about just being there and being witnessed and being a part of and just being a presence in the room is so important.
15:38 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so huge.
15:41 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's a beautiful story, and that is definitely an operating metaphor for tablancy as a compliment, you know, staying with people in those hard places, paying attention, you know, I think it's the poet, Mary Oliver, that talks about our endless and proper work is to pay attention.
16:00 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's that that artistry and in a company and paying attention like that is exactly the work of a good spiritual care practitioner.
16:12 --> 16:16 [SPEAKER_03]: You brought up the word beauty several times.
16:17 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and it may sound odd, but this is horrific, hard, horrible, terrible work, and I don't, I can't begin to understand it, but it is also beautiful.
16:36 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_03]: There's some kind of magnetic attraction that I can't possibly begin to explain that in
16:47 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_03]: love and beauty also reside.
16:51 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not sure why that phenomena occurs, but I'm sure if you interviewed a hundred chaplains, they would all say it's horrible, hard, terrible, bicariously traumatizing work, and it's so beautiful.
17:06 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It's truly beautiful.
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of, do you remember the movie?
17:11 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an old movie,
17:16 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to put it on my watch list.
17:19 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_03]: What's the connection?
17:20 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a weird movie, but it very strange movie, but there's this moment, there's this quote in that movie that has always stuck with me that I thought was like, just nailed it in a way that I couldn't articulate before.
17:32 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the side characters is played by this afternoon, Jason Lee, who is more famous in the Kevin Smith movies, like Maurette's and stuff, but he plays Tom Cruise's best friend in the movie, and he's a guy who has had a struggle for everything.
17:48 --> 17:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Tom Cruise has locked in everything,
17:59 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Jason Lee's character looks at him at one point and he goes something to the effect of it's all about the sweet and the sour and Tom Cruise doesn't understand what he means.
18:09 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And he says, you can't understand how sweet it is because you've never experienced the sour.
18:15 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, it's that I caught to be that balance that exists and as a part of being human that I think allows us to appreciate the things that truly are good, you know, when they happen like how else would we know if everything was just all good all the time, you know, it's one of those philosophical I guess things that you have to kind of way you're like, I don't know, you know, it and so I think
18:40 --> 18:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think of that quote sometimes when I think of the horrible times, well, there were also some beautiful times that I experienced like when my mom passed away, you know.
18:51 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That was the worst week that I've encountered in my life.
18:55 --> 19:01 [SPEAKER_00]: We were very close to my mom and they couldn't do the funeral right away for a few days.
19:01 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So we were just kind of stuck in the house.
19:03 --> 19:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And my dad was also in the hospital at the time.
19:06 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So myself and my three younger brothers had to essentially plan my mom's funeral and figure out where they kept everything and sit in this house.
19:16 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_00]: that was left just like it was when my mom left to go to the hospital, not thinking she'd never come out of it.
19:20 --> 19:31 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, sort of like stuck in this house in there, but there were these couple moments where, um, because, you know, as a adult, you know, in in my mid 40s, mid to late 40s now, and
19:32 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there aren't oftentimes after you, you know, create your own life where it's just you and your brothers, again, like, like it was when you were kids, you know, that those moments don't really happen anymore.
19:43 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you and your brother and their wives and your kids and whatever, but for the first time in years, it was me, just me and the brothers and just sitting there, you know.
19:57 --> 20:10 [SPEAKER_00]: grieving, but then also like, you know, enjoying time together in this weird way that I can't quite explain, but there are these moments I look back on a laugh, you know, in a week that like,
20:11 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_00]: there was nothing really there was no joy for the most part that week, you know, because it was unexpected.
20:18 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but like, you know, that that always comes to mind too, that even in the worst moments, they're oftentimes these these little, these little moments of light, you know, in the darkness.
20:31 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Just you and the brothers.
20:35 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_03]: just you and the brothers in the home that was left just like she left it.
20:44 --> 21:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, um and to bring it full circle to kind of connect it, you know, when she passed, uh, there was a Japanese there and um and I didn't even think about it until you until I started talking to you.
21:01 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, because she didn't come in guns ablaze and like, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm a Lutheran chaplain or I'm a Catholic chaplain, I'm a Jewish chaplain, whatever.
21:11 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_00]: She was just there, uh, sort of to the side, um, helping us, you know, like even it was handing us a clean axe, um,
21:22 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, was just there when we needed someone and, you know, had some kind words.
21:28 --> 21:32 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was, uh, something I wouldn't even thought about.
21:32 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, yeah, she was there.
21:33 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, now they think about it.
21:35 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, she wasn't an nurse.
21:36 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't a doctor.
21:37 --> 21:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a chaplain.
21:39 --> 21:40 [UNKNOWN]: Ha ha ha ha.
21:41 --> 21:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:42 --> 21:45 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad to hear someone handed you a clean-up.
21:45 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:47 --> 21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:47 --> 21:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other part too was like, now they think about it.
21:50 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when someone dies, passes away, especially unexpectedly, you're not, you're not planned, you haven't planned for this.
22:00 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, weird practical things, like, well, what do we do now?
22:06 --> 22:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what happens now?
22:10 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
22:11 --> 22:17 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, in this chaplain with standing there and she just sort of handled it.
22:17 --> 22:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, here's what to do, here's some paperwork, here's the phone number, you know, I will take care of this this and this and it was like in that moment where the last thing I wanted to deal with was logistics, there was this person who is ready and just handled it.
22:36 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I glad you had that support.
22:38 --> 22:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:39 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the thing about grief.
22:42 --> 22:42 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
22:42 --> 22:52 [SPEAKER_03]: There's the profound psychospiritual emotional parts of the grief and bereavement process, which is like the primary grief.
22:52 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there are these secondary griefs of like,
22:55 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_03]: This person used to make the Sunday dinner or they took out the trash or they called and gathered the family.
23:03 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there's all these secondary griefs as well.
23:06 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Like who does what?
23:08 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Now my identity is changing.
23:10 --> 23:11 [SPEAKER_03]: My role is changing.
23:11 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just me and the brothers now or it's the brothers and dad now.
23:16 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And so there's those primary griefs and those secondary griefs that
23:23 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:24 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
23:24 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that and that's something I think grief in general, unless you're faced with it, it's not something you hopefully spend much time like dwelling on, but but as a result, like that's something that wouldn't even occur to most people.
23:41 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you just think of grief as grief, but there are so many different layers to it.
23:45 --> 23:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like the first time you pick up your phone to call somebody and you're like, oh, I can't.
23:53 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, not something you think about in the moment, but something that happens later, you know.
23:59 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like forgiveness.
24:01 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not one and done.
24:02 --> 24:04 [SPEAKER_03]: It's an ongoing life long.
24:05 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_03]: They're used to be theories that talk about closure or getting over grief and the two prescribed years or whatever, but I tend to believe grief about with someone you're that close to that you love that deeply and who's so woven into your life.
24:24 --> 24:26 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a forever, that's a forever grief.
24:29 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, somebody said, have you ever revered Dr. Pauline Boss by chance?
24:38 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she's fantastic.
24:39 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_00]: She did she wrote a book.
24:41 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's been out for quite a while, but it I think it was called in big U.S. loss.
24:47 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like she really tackles a form of grief that most people don't really deal with, you know, and that is Great example that she gives in the book is if someone has like Alzheimer's or dementia.
25:01 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it's a death every day in a sense where that person that you knew is gone, even though they're physically still here, that's a different type of grief and how do you deal with that or someone who's a prisoner of war, you know, they, they're still somewhere, we don't know where necessarily, but they're still there and so how do you deal with those types of grief?
25:22 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But one of the things she mentions in the book, though specifically that just triggered in my mind,
25:27 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_00]: this notion of, well, once they find the body, you always hear this in crime movies or whatever, your true crime documentaries, they'll have closure.
25:38 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, there'll be some relief that they now know where their loved one is, but it's not gonna take the pain away.
25:46 --> 25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: A person still gone, you know?
25:50 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:51 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:52 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_03]: I so appreciate your use of that language of ambiguous grief.
25:56 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, grief is such a big, big human experience, whether it's having anticipatory grief of what a loss you're knowing is going to occur or disenfranchised grief that occurs because people are not allowed to grieve or don't have the resources
26:16 --> 26:24 [SPEAKER_03]: because of marginalization to even have the time and space to grieve, or as you mentioned, you know, and thank you as grieve.
26:24 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's so many dimensions to grieve.
26:27 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And we, we, I would say in America, kind of in a death of verse, grief of grief.
26:33 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh.
26:37 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:38 --> 26:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
26:39 --> 26:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I lost you for a minute or my computer shot down because you're still here because you're just okay.
26:47 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I just lost you anyway, but all of these different kinds of grief in a society that is
26:54 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_03]: death of verse and grief of verse here in America.
26:57 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And what would it be like to even have permission to grieve what happened in COVID?
27:03 --> 27:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Or what would it be like to really have time off from work to grieve losses?
27:09 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_03]: What would it be like to acknowledge that this is part of being human that people need time and energy to experience and and be with?
27:21 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:21 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
27:22 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's definitely something we've talked quite a bit on the podcast about like this idea that
27:28 --> 27:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially in Western society, it feels like a, like a rushed thing.
27:32 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, you're still grieving, you know, like as if there's some sort of like universal clock on it, you know, it's like, no, everybody experiences it differently, processes it differently.
27:43 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes different periods of time.
27:46 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I found that every day gets a little easier.
27:50 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still sad.
27:51 --> 27:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still, you know, I still feel avoid, you know, that can never be filled.
27:58 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's easier, like I can talk about it now without crying, you know, that's a step.
28:04 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, it's, I think it's easier, but it's not something that ever fully goes away.
28:09 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you, you miss that person.
28:11 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the the best definitions of grief I ever heard, and I'm not going to do it just to see there.
28:16 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But something to the extent of, it's evidence that that love existed, you know, that you really loved and loved well.
28:25 --> 28:37 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's what grief is is evidence that you love someone so much that, you know, you've taken on this, this grief, you know.
28:38 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one of my colleagues who works in pediatric chaplaincy, Naomi Medaris calls grief, a compass to love, a compass pointing to love, you know.
28:50 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I just think that works.
28:52 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_03]: There's, I don't know if this will resonate with you or not, John, but you referred to vanilla sky, and which I will put on my watch list.
28:59 --> 29:05 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a movie, a movie from 2010 called Robert Rabbit Hole that has Nicole Kidman in it.
29:08 --> 29:29 [SPEAKER_03]: being like right, like the immediacy of the grief experience is like carrying a boulder, a huge boulder, you know, everywhere you go, and then over time, it remains with you, but for some, for some losses that can become a stone that you hold in your pocket all at the time.
29:30 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_03]: and not that it might not grow or change, but I kind of like that that metaphor for grief and rabbit hole.
29:36 --> 29:42 [SPEAKER_03]: That is never going to go away, but it might be changing in its size or texture or how you carry it.
29:43 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's beautiful.
29:44 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
29:44 --> 29:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, your friend's definition, that's a t-shirt right there.
29:50 --> 29:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we have two two shoots out in the pot.
29:52 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
29:53 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good.
29:54 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_03]: I think we're in touch in a sterile environment.
29:56 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's too long.
29:58 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I love, no, I love that.
29:59 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's beautiful.
30:01 --> 30:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what is something that maybe you haven't shared yet that you think is important for the listeners to know about Chaplaincy and what it means to be a Chaplain.
30:11 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_03]: goodness gracious wow you're given me a wide open.
30:16 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
30:18 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I know maybe the last thing that I that I would just offer is that I have come to believe through my life that every pain demands a benevolent witness.
30:34 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And I really think that a good chaplain is a benevolent witness who can see you remain with you, a company, perhaps provide a resource, but a benevolent witness for times that need be holding.
30:58 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Man, I love it when my guests just gift wrap me the quote for the very beginning of the episode.
31:04 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I think there's no better way to end this than leave it right there.
31:09 --> 31:11 [SPEAKER_00]: That is absolutely beautiful.
31:11 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming on.
31:14 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And even reaching out in the first place, I've been really excited to have this conversation, like I said, my dad has been a chaplain.
31:21 --> 31:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably half his career.
31:23 --> 31:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And having seen it firsthand, like I said, I shared a little of the story earlier.
31:27 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I realized now what an important role that is, and probably underutilized in a lot of hospitals.
31:33 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much for coming on and talking about it.
31:37 --> 31:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's spend my pleasure.
31:38 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Please greet your dad for me.
31:40 --> 31:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, though, I will see him at the end of this week.
31:43 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, we're going out of big family vacations, so.
31:46 --> 31:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy, enjoy your trip.
31:47 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
31:48 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I love you all.
31:50 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
31:54 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Does he know that I'm alive?
32:03 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Is God even here?
32:08 --> 32:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Does she care that I don't?
32:11 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Does she care that I fear?
32:14 --> 32:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Something tells me God will survive?
32:25 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So take a breath, breathe in.
32:30 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The mystery that is this.
32:36 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You never lose, we don't know you.
32:42 --> 32:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you face.
32:50 --> 33:11 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, His face must look like you're... Did God kill His kin?
33:11 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Did He have to have blood before He would forget?
33:22 --> 33:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like us, does God know my name, is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so, does that mean it's not real?
33:50 --> 34:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So take a breath, breathe in The mystery that is there Is where you live You're just waiting on our own But I think that you've been
34:15 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, her face must look like...
34:31 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_02]: A face like a teen, a nomad, a male dread, a rock, and his husband, God send their children, face like a Kim, a Ted or Tyrone, A little seaborn with an extra chromosome.
34:54 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Powerful with legs, he can't move by himself.
34:58 --> 35:09 [SPEAKER_02]: A girl born and a Daniel, And now is Danielle, A pillaging Eve, And white guy's name died.
35:10 --> 35:14 [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a heartbeat, You are the fate.
35:32 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
35:51 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If
36:24 --> 36:24 [UNKNOWN]: You