What comes to mind when you hear the word "chaplain"?
For many of us, it's an older Christian minister carrying a Bible into a hospital room to pray with patients. But what if that image no longer reflects the reality of modern spiritual care?
In Part One of this conversation, John sits down with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, board-certified chaplain, ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at Johns Hopkins Hospital, to explore how chaplaincy has transformed over the past several decades.
Today's chaplains come from an extraordinary range of religious and philosophical traditions—including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and more. Rather than focusing on converting people or providing religious answers, modern spiritual care emphasizes presence, curiosity, accompaniment, and compassionate listening during life's most vulnerable moments.
Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:
- Why most of us have an outdated picture of what a chaplain is.
- The fascinating history and evolution of chaplaincy.
- What board-certified chaplains actually do.
- Why spiritual care is about far more than religion.
- How hospitals care for patients with widely different beliefs and worldviews.
- The shift from authority and hierarchy toward relationship and mutuality.
- Why "being present" can sometimes be more healing than having the right answers.
Whether you're deeply religious, spiritually curious, deconstructing your faith, or simply interested in what it means to care well for another human being, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on one of the most misunderstood professions in healthcare.
Guest:
Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate) is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and serves as Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is currently writing New Images of Spiritual Care, a book exploring the diverse voices and evolving practices shaping modern chaplaincy.
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00:00 --> 00:04 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not here only to supply religious resources though we could.
00:04 --> 00:11 [SPEAKER_03]: We could bring a Bible or a rosary or a coroner or a prayer mat or can act with the local e-mama or rabbi.
00:12 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_03]: So we do religious resourcing.
00:15 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_03]: We also can offer ourselves ritual at end of life if someone wants a ritual.
00:21 --> 00:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And we also are really good listeners in the midst of hospitals where docs and nurses are
00:28 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_03]: with ever increasingly highly acute and busy workloads.
00:33 --> 00:46 [SPEAKER_03]: The chaplains are the ones that can slow down, sit for a while, actively listen, invite people to reminisce, listen to feelings, help process feelings of anger, grief, sadness,
00:46 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_03]: gratitude, thankfulness, all of these things.
00:49 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_03]: So our role is for any of those sort of psychosocial spiritual needs that someone might have as simple as just having a listening ear, a trained listening ear.
01:07 --> 01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the deconstruction of some John Williamson, and if I asked you to picture a hospital chaplain, chances are many of us would imagine roughly the same thing, probably my dad, an older white man wearing a clerical collar, carrying a Bible, walking into a hospital room to pray with a patient.
01:25 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_00]: but what if almost every part of that picture is outdated?
01:29 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's chaplains may be Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or humanist, or even Wicken.
01:36 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_00]: They serve in hospitals with firefighters, and corporations alongside social justice movements, and with many people who have no religious beliefs at all.
01:46 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So what exactly is a chaplain today?
01:50 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_00]: What is spiritual care and how do you offer hope, presence, and meaning without trying to convert someone?
01:56 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Joining me today is Reverend Sally Miller, a board certified chaplain, ACPE certified educator, a manager of clinical pastoral education at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
02:07 --> 02:20 [SPEAKER_00]: She's currently writing a fascinating new book called New Images of Spiritual Care, exploring how the profession has evolved far beyond its Protestant roots into something far more diverse, relational and deeply human.
02:22 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_00]: In part one, we'll talk about how chaplaincy has changed.
02:25 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Why many of us still carry outdated assumptions about it?
02:28 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And what spiritual care looks like in one of the most religiously and culturally diverse environments imaginable.
02:35 --> 02:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's part one of my conversation with Reverend Sally Freakin Miller.
02:50 --> 02:52 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, welcome to the deconstructionist podcast.
02:53 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I have Sally Miller and today I'm very excited to talk about the topic that we're going to jump into at some point, but thank you so much for spending your afternoon with me today.
03:02 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Pleasure to be with you, John.
03:03 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having me, look forward to the conversation.
03:06 --> 03:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
03:07 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked a little bit before we got started about the fact that this is pretty close to my heart because my dad did chaplaincy work for a number of years at a few different hospitals.
03:19 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was always something that he really enjoyed.
03:23 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But not a lot of people understand sort of how it works.
03:28 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_00]: There are certain, and I know you mentioned this in email too, and we'll definitely get into it, but are there certain, or only certain faiths?
03:36 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it only Christianity that provides chaplains, and that sort of thing?
03:40 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people don't really think about that, because hopefully we're staying out of the hospital if we can help it.
03:49 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we jump in all that, tell people a little bit about your background, and how did you get into that type of work?
03:56 --> 03:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thanks for asking John.
03:58 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I used to be a music educator in a former life and then walked through a really challenging time with one of my best friends who's husband died from brain cancer and walking through that journey with them, I had this awakening where I realized there was something really sacred or holy about being with people in those hard times.
04:22 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And so then I did some searching and found out that chaplains are people who hang out with people who are in those kind of spaces.
04:31 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that set me on a journey to some an area and this weird thing called CPE training.
04:37 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's the quick version.
04:39 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
04:40 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll share a personal story a little bit later, but so when you got into to Chapel and see, were there any things that surprised you about it going into it?
04:51 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_00]: It may be not having is, you know, maybe having only that one experience with it, going into it?
04:57 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think my my faith was already kind of enlarging so to speak prior to to engaging the seminary experience and then seminary kind of began to deconstruct my faith.
05:11 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_03]: and then CPE itself being in a multicultural, multi-faith humanist environment, also deconstructed and enlarged my world view and understanding or orienting system.
05:25 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that was surprising and welcome for me.
05:31 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I think some listeners might be surprised to hear you say that, like I think people who have been found the podcast for a while have probably heard, other guests come on and say, yeah, you know, I jumped into seminary and I took these courses and that really sort of expanded my thinking and maybe really challenged some of my traditional beliefs, but I think some people might be surprised to hear that even more so for you when you started a chaplaincy, like what was
05:58 --> 06:02 [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit briefly there, but it is pretty expansive.
06:02 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It does expand beyond just Christianity.
06:05 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about what it was about chaplaincy that really further sort of cracked it open for you.
06:11 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well John, one of my colleagues affectionately calls the hospital, the institution for advanced, theological reflection.
06:21 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_03]: So here at the hospital, I'm sitting in a corner office here at the Johns Hopkins hospital.
06:27 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And here in the hospital and in many hospitals, we have to ask ourselves the practical theological question of,
06:33 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_03]: does my theology hold up in the face of suffering?
06:37 --> 06:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Does my theology hold up in the face of systemic injustice in the face of systemic inequities in healthcare?
06:46 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_03]: How does my faith hold up or my theological construct hold up?
06:51 --> 07:01 [SPEAKER_03]: when I'm sitting face-to-face human to human with someone who has another belief system different than mine, how do I stay in a relationship with them?
07:01 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_03]: So those are some of the things we face doing practical theology and CPE.
07:07 --> 07:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's one thing that you mentioned there.
07:10 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to touch on a little bit.
07:12 --> 07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just this idea that if you're a pastor who has a congregation in a church, you know, tough times or a really tragic moments happen, hopefully, seldomly.
07:26 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, occasionally you'll have somebody within your congregation who, you know, becomes ill, maybe has cancer or something along those lines and so it's a little bit fewer and far between when you have to address those instances and maybe, you know, work with the family and of course those types of questions always crop up like why did these horrible things happen that seem so arbitrary and random.
07:53 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But in a chaplaincy setting, you're encountering that, you know, if not daily weekly and so how does that sort of change your perspective when faced with those types of things on a consistent basis?
08:06 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, you're bringing up on the perfect quintessential ever present question of the Odyssey.
08:13 --> 08:16 [SPEAKER_03]: We come face to face with the Odyssey every day.
08:16 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Why does God?
08:17 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_03]: let or cause bad things to happen to good people.
08:21 --> 08:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's God is good.
08:21 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Why is all this suffering happening?
08:24 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_03]: So we sit in the intersection of the orthodoxical and the orthopraxical.
08:31 --> 08:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So what is, how do we live this out?
08:35 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_03]: What, how do we make sense of the Odyssey?
08:38 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And often we say, we can't.
08:41 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_03]: There is
08:42 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_03]: We live in the liminal space of there are no answers to these things it just is and so, you know, we sit in spaces in this plural hospital and then in CPE we sit in this plural table with, you know, a Muslim
08:59 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_03]: woman student whose pregnant and a Jewish rabbi in her 70s and a humanist previous pastor and me you know and we sit in these black Baptist minister and we sit in these places and we say how do we talk together?
09:18 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_03]: How do we live our faith and how do we be with other people who are trying to live their faith?
09:23 --> 09:26 [SPEAKER_03]: It's the challenge beyond challenges.
09:27 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's sort of humanity, you know, like if I were to define it really like you're encountering that on a daily basis where, you know, I feel like Jesus that's the way that he would have it, you know, if he could is, you know, having everybody at the table all seated around together experiencing life together, you know, I feel like that's just a beautiful picture
09:54 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, potentially tragic moments.
09:57 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right, John, and you paint a macrocosmic picture of what would sort of the divine is inviting us to all of this.
10:07 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And we have this thing in CPE.
10:09 --> 10:22 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if your dad talked with you about it, but it's called parallel process, where whatever happens in group is replicated in the clinical setting in the hospital setting, or whatever happens between
10:24 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_03]: will be a parallel process occurring in the clinic.
10:27 --> 10:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so as we relate in groups, we can learn together and then apply that to how we are with people and spiritual care encounters in the hospital.
10:38 --> 10:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, before we jump into, because I'm really fascinated by this intersection of different beliefs and even non-beliefs, I think that's a really cool aspect of the job, you know, in my dad, you know, of course, talked to me a little bit, you know, about that same thing, you know, he was,
10:55 --> 11:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, employed with chaplains who had very different belief systems and, you know, and talked about like the really cool conversations that they would have as a result.
11:05 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we dive too deep into that piece, for for those who are listening who have never had the need for a chaplain because they've never ended up in the in the hospital, you know, myself included, knock on wood.
11:18 --> 11:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Explain for people, you know, sort of a high level overview of what what is a chaplain and what services do they provide when you happen to need one.
11:27 --> 11:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
11:28 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll join you John in hoping that no one listening winds up needing a chaplain.
11:34 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_03]: But should any of your listeners find themselves in the hospital that has a spiritual care team, we provide support during times of transition.
11:47 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_03]: We're not here only to supply religious resources though we could.
11:52 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_03]: We could bring a Bible or a rosary or a coron or a prayer mat or connect to with the local e-mama or rabbi.
11:59 --> 12:02 [SPEAKER_03]: So we do religious re-sourcing.
12:03 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_03]: We also can offer ourselves
12:06 --> 12:09 [SPEAKER_03]: ritual at end of life if someone wants a ritual.
12:10 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And we also are really good listeners in the midst of hospitals where docs and nurses are super busy with ever increasing labor.
12:21 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_03]: highly acute and busy work loads.
12:24 --> 12:40 [SPEAKER_03]: The chaplains are the ones that can slow down, sit for a while, actively listen, invite people to reminisce, listen to feelings, help process feelings of anger, grief, sadness,
12:40 --> 12:43 [SPEAKER_03]: gratitude, thankfulness, all of these things.
12:43 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_03]: So our role is for any of those sort of psychosocial spiritual needs that someone might have as simple as just having a listening ear, a trained listening ear.
12:56 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that that's such a huge service, just that that piece alone where you mentioned just being someone to listen and spend time with you because, you know, I've had, you know, moments in my life where, you know, at one point both parents were in the hospital at the same time literally one floor apart.
13:18 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sorry to hear that.
13:20 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was not a good week.
13:24 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, but yeah, so, you know, one of the parents, you know, my dad, specifically, ironically, was in the hospital for about a week.
13:35 --> 13:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, as you said, you know, the staff there are very busy, they're tending to other patients.
13:41 --> 13:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you can get a little lonely in there.
13:43 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So, having somebody who can sit by you and help you process, you know, because we're also dealing with the loss of my mom at the same time.
13:51 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it is just, you know, priceless and, you know, incredible invaluable like to have somebody who is available to do that and even listen or, you know, as you said, reminisce that's such a huge thing that that service that you guys provide.
14:09 --> 14:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, yeah, in this world of ever increasing
14:16 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, automation.
14:17 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_03]: There's actually a professor that teaches at Hopkins.
14:21 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Her name is Alice in Pew.
14:22 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_03]: She just wrote a book that's called The Last Human Job and in this ever increasingly automated world that we're living in having someone who can look you in the eye who actually with your permission might touch your shoulder or hold your hand or offer a
14:40 --> 14:49 [SPEAKER_03]: prayer or blessing or just even sit in silence with you does have this really invaluable piece to it.
14:50 --> 14:51 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a study that talks about
14:56 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_03]: cells being watched or unwatched.
14:59 --> 15:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And those that are have a human presence and are watched grow differently than the unwatched cells.
15:06 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So there are actually studies about how human presence actually impacts.
15:11 --> 15:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, cellular activity.
15:13 --> 15:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, on that's probably a whole another another episode, but just this this human presence and the efficacy for, um, you know, just that human human connection, it's really important in these days.
15:28 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's one thing that, you know, I think we found out the hard way during the pandemic, you know, we've talked before in the podcast about how human beings are just communal, you know, beings and we're not meant to be isolated and when isolation happens depression is quick to follow and and a number of other things and, you know, we just strive for that human connection and just the
15:52 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_00]: the idea of somebody being able to sit there and listen, you know, there's the old joke about think it was in reference to recessions, you know, the two jobs that we'll never go out of business, they always not that I'm, by the way, comparing social workers and, and, and, chaplain to bartenders, but, you know, you know, the bartender who's like this, I like the comparison, that's okay.
16:16 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you always have your bartender who will always listen, you know, and that's one thing like we work a lot with AI in my in my day job and, you know, it's definitely very cool and something that will benefit society if used in the right way in the in the future, but there is something, you know, that AI cannot do and you mentioned that, you know,
16:36 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_00]: AI cannot sit down with somebody who is grieving and sympathize from the perspective of also having lost someone, you know, like that's something only another human being can do, and that's a job that can never be replaced.
16:52 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, can give you advice, maybe, but that's, you know, but there are times, you know, we've talked about grief and grieving before in the podcast, you know, we've had some, you know, some folks who have written some amazing books on the topic who have mentioned that sometimes like what you don't need is advice, you just need someone to listen and lend a shoulder, you know, and certainly that's, that's a very human task, you know,
17:18 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one of my, one of my educators along my certification journey to do this work, used to call chaplaincy doing nothing well, doing nothing well.
17:32 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And it is, it is an art to actually sit with someone and not offer advice, not try to fix, not try to, even tell them about your own story, but just to really be present to that suffering.
17:46 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_03]: and pathically bridge or a tune, you know, it's it's hard, hard work, it's hard work and it's good.
17:55 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love to hear you talk a little bit about what maybe some things that would surprise people.
18:01 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, and I can start this with a story.
18:05 --> 18:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be honest, I did not know anything about a chaplaincy or what chaplains do, and I recall I just graduated from high school, and my dad had just taken this job at this huge hospital in the city we had just moved to.
18:20 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was about an hour and a half away from where I went to high school, because we moved immediately after high school.
18:26 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And I got a call one night and he said, hey, your friend, you know, so and so is here.
18:31 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I won't name him just for privacy sake, but your friend from high school is here.
18:36 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And what is he doing in this city, you know, and I come to find out I end up going to the hospital to see him, but come to find out that he had a cousin who was in a horrific motorcycle accident.
18:49 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And while I was there, I got to witness some, some of what, just a fraction of what chaplains do.
18:56 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember watching the scene unfold where, unfortunately, the young man who was in his 30s, you know, I was probably 18 at the time.
19:07 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_00]: This young man was driving a motorcycle.
19:10 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe was wearing a helmet, but either way collided with a tractor trailer.
19:18 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_00]: and did not survive.
19:20 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to watch these parents process this grief on top of the fact that they had lost their daughter.
19:26 --> 19:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe the year prior and the girl the the man's girlfriend was there and also receiving the news.
19:33 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And then my dad and the midst of this having to navigate all of this
19:39 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: complex grief and processing that's happening right in front of me.
19:44 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And then having to, you know, talk with the parents about like organ donation and stuff like that.
19:50 --> 19:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like,
19:52 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Dad, your job is terrible, like I remember thinking like it's so necessary, but I could never do that.
20:00 --> 20:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my goodness, like it was unbelievable.
20:03 --> 20:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about the things that maybe people don't know that chaplains do and sort of how difficult the job can be, because that's not easy.
20:14 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: My dad told me about another time we had a
20:16 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: go in for the family because they wanted this ring that was under deceased level on's hand and had to go in and remove this ring.
20:22 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, no.
20:25 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about the things I think that might, you know, probably surprise people that, you know, that you do throughout your sort of day-to-day.
20:34 --> 20:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Well,
20:36 --> 20:54 [SPEAKER_03]: John, you are not the first person to say that this sounds like the worst job on the planet and there is no doubt it does take a certain kind of person and personality to do this work and most of the people that do the work actually do love being
20:55 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_03]: a chaplain and our drawn to being in these, what some people might call thin, thin spaces, where the human, the daily and the divine touch, right, or the natural and supernatural need in these really precarious moments.
21:16 --> 21:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So chaplains do have training to meet
21:20 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_03]: meet these moments like these that your dad had, where there's this acute suffering and these sometimes unexpected losses.
21:31 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And so chaplains come to CPE usually with masters level, theological education, and then they need four units of CPE training, clinical pastoral education training.
21:47 --> 21:55 [SPEAKER_03]: And then when they've completed all of that, they actually get boards, have to go before a board and do board certification.
21:55 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's training and behavioral sciences, training in practical theology, and all of this training goes into preparing them to be in these really dynamic families system situations or interpersonal situations.
22:14 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's an incredible amount of education up front.
22:21 --> 22:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I was always super impressed by just these situations like I said that my dad would sort of relate to us and just like the level of calm because I think that's a huge thing like when everything else is chaos around you like having that calming presence in the room
22:44 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about like we we mentioned up front that it's not just crocheting anity obviously that provide chaplain.
22:51 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk a little bit about you know I know you touched on it.
22:54 --> 23:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The other faiths that that you work alongside and how that may be changed your your views on uncertain things.
23:04 --> 23:04 [SPEAKER_03]: There.
23:05 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_03]: So first, what you mentioned about that calming presence, a lot of people's definition of a good chaplain is a calm, non anxious, non judging presence.
23:17 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_03]: So you described it perfectly there.
23:19 --> 23:23 [SPEAKER_03]: That's often people's definition of a good spiritual care practitioner.
23:24 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And then, yeah, how did it, how does it change me?
23:27 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I think being now, I've been a board-certified chaplain for several years and now, and then in education, chaplain education now.
23:35 --> 23:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like I get changed every year because I do get to be with people who have different perspectives than I do.
23:46 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And just enlarge my understanding of how to use
23:54 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_03]: that like the different needs that people have at end of life or in other parts of their life journey.
24:01 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's an it's an ever enlarging journey being around people who are different than I am.
24:07 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Even even today for example, one of the things that CPE residents do.
24:13 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_03]: They have group sessions and then they meet with their educator for individual supervision.
24:18 --> 24:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And even today, I met with a resident who was talking about some language in verbatim material that said something, I think the language was like healing journey.
24:31 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_03]: And as a rabbi, she just didn't embrace that language.
24:35 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_03]: She had different language that worked to describe.
24:41 --> 24:48 [SPEAKER_03]: healing journey or a process of she would have called it a process of making space for grace.
24:49 --> 24:52 [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I'm always learning about vocabulary.
24:52 --> 24:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always learning about particularities.
24:54 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always learning
24:56 --> 25:12 [SPEAKER_03]: about my own need for respect and humility, cultural and religious humility, and getting reminded to engage my curiosity over and over and over, because there's no arrival.
25:12 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's no, like I've got it now, but it's just a every new person is another opportunity for being curious and learning together.
25:20 --> 25:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Co-creating.
25:21 --> 25:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
25:24 --> 25:25 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I love that.
25:26 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the mistake that we saw often make, you know, especially if your tradition happens to be Christianity is that we think we have nothing to learn from any of the other traditions.
25:38 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that's crazy.
25:39 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the more I've
25:41 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_00]: gotten to know some of the other world religions, you know, the more I've seen beauty and other practices, you know, you know, it's funny, you notice because of the recording studio for whatever reason I hate the new layout.
25:56 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And the main page there, sorry Riverside, I don't like it.
26:01 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But I, you know, I've had rabbis on pretty frequently and we always find, you know, because obviously our common ground is the, what we call the Old Testament, they always find a way, like, such a cool way to shine a new perspective on a story I've heard a million times and thought, like, I can't possibly take any new revelation from this passage.
26:24 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_00]: they always seem to blow my mind.
26:25 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, as I think that's so important.
26:29 --> 26:38 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about like sticking with that theme, tell people like, well, first of all, we should probably start with, how does one get called down to someone's room?
26:38 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how does that happen?
26:40 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, how do you engage with the person initially when you walk in the room?
26:46 --> 26:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a great question.
26:50 --> 27:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So there are these things called outcomes and competencies that every chaplain learner is learning as they go through the CPE process.
27:00 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of those things is having a little elevator pitch to be able to introduce exactly like you asked me, what in the world does a chaplain do?
27:10 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a lot of people, if they even know the word chaplain, they think it's some
27:14 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_03]: white dude with the beard carrying around a Bible, you know, that's, that's often what we think of, but then we have a pregnant Muslim woman wearing a hijab walking into the room that has a chaplain badge.
27:25 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, she's going to walk in and give you an elevator pitch about what a chaplain does that may sound very different than my elevator pitch.
27:36 --> 27:38 [SPEAKER_03]: So one of the first things we do in CPE is
27:42 --> 27:50 [SPEAKER_03]: when you get called to the ED or when you get to call to ortho or when you get called to a perinatal loss in labor and delivery.
27:51 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_03]: And so different chaplain residents will have different elevator pitches to describe themselves and their role on the multidisciplinary team and different opening lines to sort of have a warm on tray into do you want me to stay or do you want me to leave?
28:11 --> 28:23 [SPEAKER_03]: and actually part of that elevator pitch is respecting autonomy and in a place like a hospital where people are coming in and out of the room all the time poking and prodding people.
28:24 --> 28:27 [SPEAKER_03]: The chaplain is the one person that people can say no.
28:27 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, I don't want a chaplain right now.
28:30 --> 28:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to see anybody right now and respecting that can actually be a way of respecting patient autonomy and empowerment.
28:39 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_03]: getting into and out of a room are skills and art form that each chaplain develops for themselves as they are information for this work of spiritual care that you have their own story and they're sticking to it.
28:58 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's something I never would have considered.
29:01 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
29:06 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, it would depend on the unit.
29:09 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So give me a scenario and all that goes on.
29:13 --> 29:15 [SPEAKER_03]: What's the context, John?
29:15 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I've ended up in the emergency room.
29:17 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would like to speak to a chaplain.
29:21 --> 29:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And so say, and by the way, here's a question too.
29:25 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you request a chaplain, I'm assuming that's how, or do the chaplain's kind of flip around and kind of check in and say, hey, do you need a chaplain?
29:34 --> 29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: and then is it just whoever happens to be on duty or do they inquire about your particular faith or like what faith you'd like to talk to or how does that work?
29:46 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_03]: My answer to your question is yes.
29:51 --> 29:53 [SPEAKER_03]: question is yes, yes, all of the above.
29:53 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So different hospitals have different standards of care or different ways they deploy their chaplains.
30:01 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_03]: But I'll give you a general answer that's similar.
30:04 --> 30:15 [SPEAKER_03]: First, if I'm called to the ED, let's say there's someone who's had, maybe they've had an arm break or something and I'm walking into the ED and there's a person there, maybe their family is present.
30:20 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_03]: If there's a need for privacy in the room, I might draw the curtain, if the curtain is not drawn to offer that human respect to privacy.
30:29 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_03]: If it looks like there's a calm there, I might slowly calmly enter the space.
30:37 --> 30:40 [SPEAKER_03]: I would look around to see who's giving me eye contact.
30:40 --> 30:48 [SPEAKER_03]: I had to might be noticing me, maybe it's you, maybe your dad is present with you or a friend or spouses with you.
30:48 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_03]: I might turn to them if you're still getting treated.
30:51 --> 30:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I might say hi, my name is Sally.
30:53 --> 30:55 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm part of the interdisciplinary team.
30:55 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm here to care for any need you might have this time for either water or hospitality.
31:03 --> 31:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything I could get you at that point?
31:05 --> 31:09 [SPEAKER_03]: So it might just be a really soft entree like that, maybe.
31:10 --> 31:15 [SPEAKER_03]: If you are in a place where you could talk as well, I might also introduce myself to you.
31:16 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're being cared for, I might not.
31:18 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_03]: If there's a request for water, I might grab the water and come back and then slowly build trust and that sort of spiritual care relationship might unfold or it might not.
31:31 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And if it's something more acute like a death or a possible death, that might be something that I would return back and forth from through the night, depending on my assessment of the situation in the needs there.
31:44 --> 31:54 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's that, and then in terms of the whole care team, off in it hospitals, there's one chaplain that carries what we call the hot pager.
31:54 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_03]: I know, believe it or not, John, we still carry pagers.
31:58 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_03]: If you both will see us and be like, you're either a chaplain or a drug dealer with that pager.
32:02 --> 32:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes.
32:04 --> 32:12 [SPEAKER_03]: We do carry a hot pager and there are often parts of hospitals that get sort of generalist coverage.
32:12 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_03]: And so anyone who is carrying the pager would respond to those like a code for example.
32:19 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there are unit-based staff taplands who like here at Hopkins.
32:24 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_03]: We have a pediatric chaplain.
32:26 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_03]: and she sees all of our peeds patients.
32:29 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So if something came in on the pageur, that was emergent in peach, our peeds chaplain would get that.
32:34 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_03]: We also have a perinatal chaplain.
32:37 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_03]: If something came in for a fetal loss, that chaplain would get that.
32:40 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_03]: We have an oncology chaplain.
32:42 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So
32:43 --> 32:58 [SPEAKER_03]: There's unit-based chaplains, and then this generalist model, and because chaplains often served 24, 7 in a hospital context, there are times when there's only one chaplain on call like overnight.
32:59 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_03]: So if they get paged in the night, we know it's usually an emergency, and they would go anywhere in this thousand-bed hospital, anywhere.
33:08 --> 33:10 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like surprise, you're it, you're going
33:11 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I just had this beautiful fantasy of someone in the middle of the night calling for a chaplain.
33:19 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And it, ooh, it's a chaplain that represents a faith that they didn't grow up with and they're a little uncomfortable at first, but then they warm up and it changes maybe their world view a little bit.
33:31 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any stories of situations like that happening?
33:36 --> 33:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that was the other part of your question, wasn't it?
33:38 --> 33:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, in our model of care for chaplains, the chaplain themselves,
33:46 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_03]: prize not to lead with their orienting system, their religious tradition, their faith perspective or their spirituality, we use our grounding system to inform how we are with people, but we would never lead a spiritual and care encounter with
34:09 --> 34:12 [SPEAKER_03]: with our particular perspective.
34:12 --> 34:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Our job is to meet people where they are and to draw upon their orienting system.
34:19 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Now granted, a lot of us on the team here at Hopkins, for example, where street clothes, like what I'm wearing, just like a blazer and professional gear, there are some people whose religious traditions require them.
34:34 --> 34:41 [SPEAKER_03]: to wear some kind of obviously religious dress, whether it's a hit job or something like that.
34:41 --> 34:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And in that case, that would be something that that student would talk about.
34:46 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is something I am going to wear.
34:49 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_03]: How will I enter a room or how will I address people?
34:54 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I address upon not intended.
34:58 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, so and that said,
35:03 --> 35:15 [SPEAKER_03]: chaplains and patients both respecting one another, can choose to see or not see someone, you know, some of our patients will not, will not want a woman chaplain present for example.
35:16 --> 35:21 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we have a team that's deep enough that we can refer to another practitioner.
35:21 --> 35:23 [SPEAKER_03]: We're all the same training and so we would refer.
35:27 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he has a body or even a name, if he does, does he know that I'm alive, is God.
35:49 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: But you can't let it out, don't you?
35:52 --> 36:12 [SPEAKER_02]: You can't let it be, something else Make all of it, we'll survive So take a breath, breathe, breathe
36:20 --> 36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we don't know you, I think a true face If God has a face, His face must look like yours
36:47 --> 36:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Did God kill his kin?
36:52 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Did he have to have blood before he would forget?
36:58 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we
37:14 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the aching my soldiers confined to my brain, even so does that mean it's not real?
37:26 --> 37:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So take a breath of breathing, the mystery that is there.
37:48 --> 38:02 [SPEAKER_02]: But if God has a face, her face must look like you're in love with me.
38:12 --> 38:33 [SPEAKER_02]: A face like a teenager, and I'm at a meal dreaded A rock sent his husband, got sent their children Vays like a Kim, a TED or Tyrone A little sea born with an extra chromosome
38:34 --> 38:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Powerful with legs, he can't move by himself A girl born a Daniel, who now is Daniel A pillage of Eve and white guy's name died If you have a heartbeat, you are the first
39:02 --> 39:14 [UNKNOWN]: To take a breath, breathe, a mystery that is there.
39:32 --> 40:01 [SPEAKER_02]: If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If God has a face, If